Will the next NSX be a plug-in?

[JD Cross]

Being one of the oldest NSX owners and heading off on a bit of a tangent, I recall the 60's where 60 hp per liter was the benchmark for GM and Chrysler NA factory high performance V8's.
Then the pollution era dropped those figures down considerably.
In 91 when our NSX launched we had 90 NA hp per liter with the pollution requirements met.
Now we have direct injection engines coming out at 125 NA hp/liter.

Throughout this period we have also had an innovative group of aftermarket companies offering gains on the base factory engines like Comptech superchargers etc.

I'm thinking in this era of direct injection hybrid power systems, the aftermarket people will continue to work away at improving on the factory base power systems.
We may be hearing the latest mod is a new super battery, a new high output electric motor, a high output charging system or a plug in adapter for your non plug-in hybrid.
That coupled with the usual products to extract more hp from the internal combustion part of the power system could see an exciting new period of hot-rodding.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Totally agree Jim. Some people are very resistant to change I remember in high school I had a sports car with engine management and fuel injection and the hot rod guys used to constantly bash it all and talk about their old school camaros and such. Now every motor has engine management. I think playing with electric motors and even learning hybrid tech and applying it to performance principles can be pretty exciting.

 

[2slow2speed]

Totally agree Jim. Some people are very resistant to change I remember in high school I had a sports car with engine management and fuel injection and the hot rod guys used to constantly bash it all and talk about their old school camaros and such. Now every motor has engine management. I think playing with electric motors and even learning hybrid tech and applying it to performance principles can be pretty exciting.

Seriously exciting for who??

I'm a BSEE/MSEE and very proficient with SW development and a multiple of disciplines.

But I still believe in KISS for vehicles that I intend to work on, not having to spend countless $$ on tools like PIWS (used by Porsche) or Consult (used by Nissan) is a good starting point IMHO.

Hacking or modifying the management modules on newer vehicles is becoming more of a hassle due to all the legal ramifications, it won't be long before everything will be encrypted to the nth degree to prevent tampering due to liability issues regarding lawsuits, etc, etc.

Tech on a gizmo meant to be replaced every 1-4 years is one thing, for a car that is $100K+, it's just not the same. Some people realize that some don't...

 

[BD]

Hacking or modifying the management modules on newer vehicles is becoming more of a hassle due to all the legal ramifications, it won't be long before everything will be encrypted to the nth degree to prevent tampering due to liability issues regarding lawsuits, etc, etc.

Tech on a gizmo meant to be replaced every 1-4 years is one thing, for a car that is $100K+, it's just not the same. Some people realize that some don't...

I have agree, with the visual inspection of California, which is spread into other states, politics absolutely killed the old school super cars. Also modification of today's cars are almost forbidden by the manufactures. Remember what Honda said in 2005, the NSX still was not killed because Honda was bored of making it, but bureaucracy stands in its way.

More I think about this new NSX, more I dislike the way it is set up with the hybrid system. I really dig the exterior design but I think I'll pass on owning on unless they make a none hybrid version. I don't need sub 3 second to 60 I certainly don't want a battery system I have to replace every ten or so years that will cost more than 10% value of the car.

 

[JD Cross]

I have agree, with the visual inspection of California, which is spread into other states, politics absolutely killed the old school super cars. Also modification of today's cars are almost forbidden by the manufactures. Remember what Honda said in 2005, the NSX still was not killed because Honda was bored of making it, but bureaucracy stands in its way.
More I think about this new NSX, more I dislike the way it is set up with the hybrid system. I really dig the exterior design but I think I'll pass on owning on unless they make a none hybrid version. I don't need sub 3 second to 60 I certainly don't want a battery system I have to replace every ten or so years that will cost more than 10% value of the car.

You make some very valid points about manufacturers not wanting changes to their proprietary control systems.
They have spent serious development dollars on their very complex software and hardware whether it be on direct injection control systems or the hybrid controls.

I'm thinking more about the evolution of the components of the hybrid power trains.
Perhaps battery technology is in it's early days much like fuel injection used to be.
Development of batteries may result in a better longer lasting battery that could replace an oem battery and still respond to the oem control systems.
Or a more efficient electric motor that could replace a factory motor etc.

Perhaps Ferrari, McLaren, Porsche and Honda have a vision of a hybrid technology that offers more potential gains than trying to further refine internal combustion technology.
I certainly have no knowledge of what is behind these strategic decisions on hybrid power systems.
But I've been in business long enough to know that spending millions or billions to develop these systems is not done without a lot of research and scrutiny by the senior managers and shareholders or boards of these firms.

I'm kind of hoping we're at the beginning of a new age for performance cars, the equivalent of the arrival of the American V8 in the 50's.

 

[BD]

You make some very valid points about manufacturers not wanting changes to their proprietary control systems.
They have spent serious development dollars on their very complex software and hardware whether it be on direct injection control systems or the hybrid controls.

I'm thinking more about the evolution of the components of the hybrid power trains.
Perhaps battery technology is in it's early days much like fuel injection used to be.
Development of batteries may result in a better longer lasting battery that could replace an oem battery and still respond to the oem control systems.
Or a more efficient electric motor that could replace a factory motor etc.

Perhaps Ferrari, McLaren, Porsche and Honda have a vision of a hybrid technology that offers more potential gains than trying to further refine internal combustion technology.
I certainly have no knowledge of what is behind these strategic decisions on hybrid power systems.
But I've been in business long enough to know that spending millions or billions to develop these systems is not done without a lot of research and scrutiny by the senior managers and shareholders or boards of these firms.

I'm kind of hoping we're at the beginning of a new age for performance cars, the equivalent of the arrival of the American V8 in the 50's.

Manufatures are forced to create hybrids to meet the Federal mandate of x miles/gallon on the average production cars, that's why they have built hybrids since not every car will have the weight of the Honda Fit or VW Diesel.

For high end cars, it is more of a show off to have the hybrid system from the F1's KERS technology.

While it may make the new NSX an attractive option up front, but it may also be a major headache for those of us who intend to keep the car for decades to come.

I'm very split on this design and perhaps you're right, if the battery technology is proven to be reliable, it maybe the future blueprint, but future is definitely not certain.

 

[N Spec]

Manufatures are forced to create hybrids to meet the Federal mandate of x miles/gallon on the average production cars, that's why they have built hybrids since not every car will have the weight of the Honda Fit or VW Diesel.

For high end cars, it is more of a show off to have the hybrid system from the F1's KERS technology.

While it may make the new NSX an attractive option up front, but it may also be a major headache for those of us who intend to keep the car for decades to come.

I'm very split on this design and perhaps you're right, if the battery technology is proven to be reliable, it maybe the future blueprint, but future is definitely not certain.

No one is forced to make hybrids or anything. There are no laws stating cars MUST be hybrids. Hybrids are the solution or path that most Automakers view as the next logical step. Early technology adoption is always going to be rocky. You think they were efficient and making even 50 hp / liter when they first introduced the gasoline engine?

 

[BD]

http://www.thedieseldriver.com/2010/04/u-s-government-mandates-new-fuel-efficiency-standards/

Not sure if I'm reading something wrong.

"The new government mandates will require passenger vehicles to average 54.5 miles per gallon –nearly double the current mandate - by 2025. If that mandate is designed to force more hybrid vehicles on the market, that’s problematic, too, warns a CEI expert."

The fact that we had cars that were able to deliver 50+ miles to a gallon in the 80's and 90's, but the Federal crash standard changed all that. Hybrid is basically the only solution if these makers want to continue selling cars in the states.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Seriously exciting for who??

I'm a BSEE/MSEE and very proficient with SW development and a multiple of disciplines.

But I still believe in KISS for vehicles that I intend to work on, not having to spend countless $$ on tools like PIWS (used by Porsche) or Consult (used by Nissan) is a good starting point IMHO.

Hacking or modifying the management modules on newer vehicles is becoming more of a hassle due to all the legal ramifications, it won't be long before everything will be encrypted to the nth degree to prevent tampering due to liability issues regarding lawsuits, etc, etc.

Tech on a gizmo meant to be replaced every 1-4 years is one thing, for a car that is $100K+, it's just not the same. Some people realize that some don't...

I think no matter how complex the aftermarket will always find a way to modify things for the better. It may take longer and there may be a change or a transition time but eventually people will find a way and learn. If all cars became electric tomorrow, someone somewhere will find a way to make it faster and better. All I am saying is that the ways to modify will change, just like they had to before electronics became part of engine management and control just 20-30 years ago. All the old-school hot rodders were all angry and up in arms about the "new cars and all their fancy electronics" then too. "Rip all that crap out" they all used to say and do for a while. Now to go fast you really need Motec and AEM and no one is whining anymore. It will be the same deal with hybrid tech, electric motors, and batteries.

 

[tmeekins]

http://www.thedieseldriver.com/2010/04/u-s-government-mandates-new-fuel-efficiency-standards/

Not sure if I'm reading something wrong.

"The new government mandates will require passenger vehicles to average 54.5 miles per gallon –nearly double the current mandate - by 2025. If that mandate is designed to force more hybrid vehicles on the market, that’s problematic, too, warns a CEI expert."

The fact that we had cars that were able to deliver 50+ miles to a gallon in the 80's and 90's, but the Federal crash standard changed all that. Hybrid is basically the only solution if these makers want to continue selling cars in the states.

Why is going hybrid the only solution? There's been a lot of progress recently in cars turning off cylinders and adding more gears. My Audi A6 is an 8 speed and it pretty much never goes over 1500 RPM on the freeway and it's a big heavy car with a supercharged engine, and yet I get 34 MPG freeway. Diesel can also help MPG. Hybrid is just one of many solutions, and I'm sure there are more to come. A lot can happen in 10 years. CVT? electrically controlled valves? Cheaper lightweight materials?

 

[JD Cross]

I'm with Dave
The auto industry has shown remarkable ability to innovate.
Sure the industry has fought pollution controls, CAFE limits, and safety criteria, but once the rules have been laid down, they get to work and in time perhaps even exceed their own expectations.
Not all of the paths chosen by manufacturers may lead to gains but with serious research dollars being spent I'd expect enough new technology will emerge and we will end up with better performance.

 

[WingZ]

http://www.thedieseldriver.com/2010/04/u-s-government-mandates-new-fuel-efficiency-standards/

Not sure if I'm reading something wrong.

"The new government mandates will require passenger vehicles to average 54.5 miles per gallon –nearly double the current mandate - by 2025. If that mandate is designed to force more hybrid vehicles on the market, that’s problematic, too, warns a CEI expert."

The fact that we had cars that were able to deliver 50+ miles to a gallon in the 80's and 90's, but the Federal crash standard changed all that. Hybrid is basically the only solution if these makers want to continue selling cars in the states.

Well the article does say "If that mandate". Plenty of car companies are going lighter and doing different things with the transmission. Companies just have to get creative. If the tech isn't there then invent it. It's what Honda used to do. Remember the CVCC when the Big three were saying the then new EPA standards were introduced couldn't be met? Honda got it done and after awhile the Big three did as well.

LOL Only the dinosaurs died (well supposedly became birds) when things changed.

 

[BD]

Going through hybrid is the cheapest route, therefore, the best solution for the current market.

As you know, they are now pushing electric cars because even the hybrid cannot meet that goal.

So to answer your own question, even your big and heavy Audi A6 cruising at 1500rpm cannot reach 50mpg, even with the help of a hybrid motor, and I find it hard to believe the number is that good during store runs. Even my CRZ on it's best day I can only get 35mpg on the local street.

While you're right about 10 years a long ways to go, they have been building EV since 1997 (Honda and GM EV), and yet they're still having problem getting desirable mileage on them.

AND, the model cycle now goes between 5 to 10 years, so look at the Honda Accord of Civic of the last 10 years, the fuel economy haven't been much better.

Well the article does say "If that mandate". Plenty of car companies are going lighter and doing different things with the transmission. Companies just have to get creative. If the tech isn't there then invent it. It's what Honda used to do. Remember the CVCC when the Big three were saying the then new EPA standards were introduced couldn't be met? Honda got it done and after awhile the Big three did as well.

LOL Only the dinosaurs died (well supposedly became birds) when things changed.

I agree with you to certain extend. The Federal crash standard changes too with time! Honda used all aluminum construction in 1990, MB didn't even do that on their S class till 20 years later, while Ferrari have not gotten any better in fuel economy. I remember 348 can do 35 to a gallon cruising steady at 75. You can't do that with the 458,

Modern day car as we know it started in the 1980's and the fuel economy have gotten any better; the cars have become bigger and safer, but the fuel economy has really been almost the same the last ten or so years.

 

[TURBO2GO]

All this talk is just sort of reinforcing my point that an actual plug we some electric-only drive capability would be huge. In reality it may not have much of an MPG effect but on paper it will hugely boost the car's efficiency. Therefore if possible, would make sense to have. Perhaps on an NSX it doesn't matter much because of the low production numbers but it is a halo and perhaps halo shouldn't be based on power ONLY. I'm not saying it has to be an insight, just a little better than its competition.

On an unrelated note, I think car companies will start to phase out the super gas guzzlers. The trucks, the real big SUV's, the Escalade EXT's and the Yukons. Those are the ones that really hurt the corporate economy. Does anyone know what the current number is? it is 30. Higher than most think.

 

[scammy]

sounds like the new GTR R36 will be a plugin with Williams F1 tech,,, some of this has been out for a while but starting to surface again
http://www.autoblog.com/2013/09/30/nissan-gt-r-to-get-williams-hybrid-tech/
http://gas2.org/2013/10/01/2016-nissan-gt-r-employ-formula-1-hybrid-tech/
and here they mention the new NSX and target price of the GTR
http://www.gtrinformation.com/tag/gt-r-r36/

 

[TURBO2GO]

looks like soon everyone will be hybrid.

 

[BD]

R35 is quite a heavy car, they'll probably have no choice but going to the aluminum business with R36 if they want to do something with the hybrid motor, which means it will not be cheap and will defeat the purpose of GTR, which is the cheapest car in its class that can run with the best.

2018 is still far away and Renault Williams collaboration may not stick since Renault do have KERS system of their own.

Just have to wait and see. I know Williams need the biz.