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Brake assessment for upcoming track day (FI NSX)

Accel Junky

Accel Junky

Experienced Member
Joined
30 August 2007
Messages
296
Location
Acworth, GA
Hey guys,

Just wanted to get some opinions on my setup for an upcoming track day at AMP. The car is a 98 NSX making 460whp via Lovefab turbo. Wheels/Tires are 17x8.5" +38 front with 215/40/17 and 18x10" +25 rear with 255/35/18, Tires are Dunlop Star Specs (run wide) with pretty good tread life remaining. I have replaced the brake fluid with Motul RBF600 (date was spring of 2012, garage stored, only driven the car about 500-750 highway miles since...fluid is still a very clean clearish tan color). I also installed the STMPO brake scoops at that time. The pads are still stock as far as I know. Stock rotors. Stock brake lines. The rock shields are still in place if I recall.

Alignment was done by a very well known place that aligns many Road Atlanta and AMP track cars. I can't remember the specs at the moment but I asked for something that was mostly suitable for street driving and tire wear with an occasional track day or days. I can tell you this. Plenty of negative camber but I *think* I had them pull some toe in the rear to improve tire wear...not sure if that happened or not. When I took the car to AMP for about 3 or so 90% laps I did not notice any significant under or oversteer. Seemed pretty well balanced to my moderately experienced senses.

I'm not a crazy fast driver. More of an intermediate or lower intermediate driver and I have only driven a few laps at AMP before (when the track was under construction still). Given that, do you think I will be OK for this track day with the increased speeds from the turbo or should make a quick move on upgraded pads and ducting?

Thanks,

Daniel
 
I don't know the track but with the speed you'll be flying down the straights with be prepared for brake fade at around lap 3+ or sooner. This means increasing break distances just as you start to get into a grove and feel like you can go faster. I've seen some people get surprised and run off from extreme brake fade when they least expect it.

If it was me I'd upgrade pads before the track day. The stock pads can wear "like butter" and you might find yourself not even being able to get home because you have no pad left. At the very least if you're too lazy to change it out carry a spare set with you to the track.

0.02

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BTW... I'm not saying you have to upgrade. I'm just hinting at what to be prepared for based on personal experience.
 
RYU said:
I don't know the track but with the speed you'll be flying down the straights with be prepared for brake fade at around lap 3+ or sooner. This means increasing break distances just as you start to get into a grove and feel like you can go faster. I've seen some people get surprised and run off from extreme brake fade when they least expect it.

If it was me I'd upgrade pads before the track day. The stock pads can wear "like butter" and you might find yourself not even being able to get home because you have no pad left. At the very least if you're too lazy to change it out carry a spare set with you to the track.

0.02

- - - Updated - - -

BTW... I'm not saying you have to upgrade. I'm just hinting at what to be prepared for based on personal experience.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your reply. The track was designed by F1 track designer Hermann Tilke and is known for a lot of hills and elevation changes. Perhaps that may work the brakes harder than on a more level track. It sounds like it may be risky to keep my stock pads. Do you have a suggestion for an affordable pad that would suit my needs on the track but would be suitable for street driving? I don't drive the car often so the pad doesn't need to last that long on the street. Originally I had Hawk HPS pads on my radar but it has been quite a while since I last researched pads.

As far as the rock shields on the brakes... think I need to go ahead and remove those? I can't recall if you have to take the disks off to get them off or if they bolt in from behind.

- - - Updated - - -

I also noticed Hawk has a new HP Street/Race pad that is designed for track days and then driving home. Sounds like what I need but I'd have to research real life experiences.
 
Ryu might not say it but I will. It isn't safe to go to the track on used oem pads. Pads and tires are the two things to help you stop safely. Why would you not want to be safer on the track? I would definitely change out your pads for a set of track pads. The OEM ones will not last..........at all.

Brake pad choices in the end are your choice. Personally I run Carbotech pads and have for a few years on different vehicles. AX6 for the street and XP10 for the track. If you want to run Carbotech pads then it is suggested that you change your rotors out to a new set because those pads do not play well with other pad debris on the rotors. Also remember to bed in the pads correctly. No matter what pads you use.

If you are going to improve the speed then improve the braking to balance out the car.
 
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Accel Junky said:
Thank you for your reply. The track was designed by F1 track designer Hermann Tilke and is known for a lot of hills and elevation changes. Perhaps that may work the brakes harder than on a more level track. It sounds like it may be risky to keep my stock pads. Do you have a suggestion for an affordable pad that would suit my needs on the track but would be suitable for street driving? I don't drive the car often so the pad doesn't need to last that long on the street. Originally I had Hawk HPS pads on my radar but it has been quite a while since I last researched pads.

As far as the rock shields on the brakes... think I need to go ahead and remove those? I can't recall if you have to take the disks off to get them off or if they bolt in from behind.

- - - Updated - - -

I also noticed Hawk has a new HP Street/Race pad that is designed for track days and then driving home. Sounds like what I need but I'd have to research real life experiences.
Click to expand...
There are several opinions here on which pads work best for a street/track application. Personally, I can't stand the Hawks because they squeak/squeal far too much and the semi-metallic compound dusts to a point where the particles started to rust on my wheels. I'm on the tried and true Porterfield R4s. It's a decent street/track pad but I do wish they were grabbier on initial tip in. It's easy on the rotors which I can live with given i'm on BBK. For a OEM 97+ brake setup I personally would want something more aggressive but I would be ok going out to the track occassionally from the most aggressive street/track pad from Carbotech, Porterfield, Stoptech, and the new comers... Winmax.

Cooling is key with the stock setup. Some guys go to the extreme and build complex ducting and hose work just to stick with the OEM setup. If you can remove your dust shields that will help significantly. I assume you don't drive the car in extreme weather anyway and I would say you don't really need them - the benefits of added cooling far outweighs he benefits of keeping them.

Good luck and have fun! Just remember.. with lots of power comes lots of responsibility LOL. Brake early when in doubt!

BTW.. +1 on bedding in pads. It's super important. Before your first track day find a stretch of empty road near your home. Follow any one of many bed-in procedures for your pads. They help the life of your pads and helps you extract the most of out of them. With stock brake calipers and rotors, trust me, you'll need to extract every ounce of performance out of them.

- - - Updated - - -

Full disclosure... DocJohn has had the Porterfield R4S crumble on him.
 
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RYU said:
BTW.. +1 on bedding in pads.
Click to expand...

+2. A few years ago I was in a student's NSX and we crashed in the first braking zone, first session of the day, first hot lap. Besides the 16-year-old driver not wanting to slow down per my instructions during the warm-up lap, he had NOT bedded in the brand new pads and got "green fade".

Neither of us was hurt but the car was totaled. I saw the car a few months later on Prime, someone in Budapest, Hungary asking if anyone knew what had happened to it. Too bad I did have first-hand knowledge.

Also, despite you saying the Motul 600 brake fluid looks clear and hasn't had much mileage, you did say it was done in spring 2012. If it were me going on the track in my car, I'd change it again. Just sayin'.
 
I agree with Bob^^^ or with oem calipers you could even just have 8's for front and rear.
 
I'm looking at those Carbotech XP8 pads now. Looking at $320 ish best case scenario. The Hawk HP+ are a lot cheaper. Around $180-200 out the door. Though it seems the Carbotechs would need a rotor replacement. My rotors are in great shape so I don't know if I want to spend the money on new rotors quite so soon. So maybe HP+ might be a good bang for the buck...
 
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Accel Junky said:
I'm looking at those Carbotech XP8 pads now. Looking at $320 ish best case scenario. The Hawk HP+ are a lot cheaper. Around $180-200 out the door. Though it seems the Carbotechs would need a rotor replacement. My rotors are in great shape so I don't know if I want to spend the money on new rotors quite so soon. So maybe HP+ might be a good bang for the buck...
Click to expand...

I run these pads on my stock rotors (and have been for over 5 years now)
 
Accel Junky said:
I'm looking at those Carbotech XP8 pads now. Looking at $320 ish best case scenario. The Hawk HP+ are a lot cheaper. Around $180-200 out the door. Though it seems the Carbotechs would need a rotor replacement. My rotors are in great shape so I don't know if I want to spend the money on new rotors quite so soon. So maybe HP+ might be a good bang for the buck...
Click to expand...
If you can live with the squeal (it can get bad) then the HP+ are decent. It's like a mediocre all-season tire.
 
Accel Junky said:
Ah, gotcha. That could work. Have you run them on used rotors? Or were your rotors fresh when you switched? Thanks a bunch for your help.
Click to expand...

Both. I have 111 track days in the NSX so over the years I have sometimes changed just pads and other times pads and rotors.

Larry B has been maintaining my NSX exclusively for over 10 years so you can always PM him to get his input on my setup.
 
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I appreciate all of the help from everyone. I ended up ordering the Carbotech XP8/XP10 combo from KNS. I'm going to remove the rock shields as well. We'll see how this track day goes and then maybe I'll worry about ducting. Now...wonder if I can get away with driving to the track on those pads or if that would be reckless...
 
People say that you can use a Scotch-Brite pad or steel wool to remove the deposits from your old pads. Supposedly a better option is to brake a couple times with Hawk Blue pads on. Instead of that expense or the effort of scrubbing, I just used the HP+ on the street and after a few weeks they removed all the deposits.

The Hawk HP+ pads were good for me starting out with tracking but even by the fourth weekend, I was wishing I had more consistent braking. This was a stock NA2 with stock brakes other than larger deflectors. So although they are inexpensive, it does seem like you would be wise to take the advice above and go with something at a higher level. I mentioned them above because they are a world apart from the OEM pads. I suspect that the other options that others are mentioning above are the same type of difference again. I plan to move to different pads when I resume tracking.

- - - Updated - - -

Accel Junky said:
wonder if I can get away with driving to the track on those pads or if that would be reckless...
Click to expand...

Seems like the only downside is sounding like a city bus.
 
RSO 34 said:
I run these pads on my stock rotors (and have been for over 5 years now)
Click to expand...

I run them on stock rotors as well. Those pads HAVE to be bedded in correctly, and do not like other pad compounds on the rotors. Best way to bed them is to buy new rotors, run a set of cheap Autozone rotors for a few days, clean the rotors off with steel wool and put the new Carbotech pads in. It will be a lot easier to bed them in.

I would have gone XP8/XP8 for a beginner to get used to the bite and braking feel. Especially if it is a new track you are playing with. To each his own though. Good luck on the track and have fun.
 
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Not brake related but a few words about AMP.

Wow, you will have your hands full at AMP with that much power, if you can change your wastegate spring and run less boost it would serve you best to have about 400whp on that track. It is very tight and very technical. No big straights as the track has a lot of turn packed into a very small space. Make sure you have your noise levels under control as well. AMP has a very strict noise level rule in place and a stock exhaust on a C6 is very near the limit, I have not heard your car but have heard other LF Turbos and I think you will have a problem and I know you will if you are not running a CAT.

Back on the Brake thing, if you remove your "Rock Shield" (they are really "heat shields") and you should, you also need to make new heat shields to protect the upper and lower ball joints in the knuckle and front uprights as well as shields for the tie rod ends. Aftermarket pads and a track like AMP will heat up the rotors and they will in turn heat up the soft rubber boots protecting the ball joints and tie rod ends. You will shorten the life of some very expensive parts if you do not protect these items from heat. Oh, change your brake fluid, 2+ years is way to long, I change mine every two events and I run an event or two every month Feb - Nov. Its not the age that is an issue its that brake fluid absorbs moisture from the air and that additional moisture lowers the boiling point of the fluid. As soon as it boils you will loose your pedal.

AMP is a blast, I hope you have better weather than the last time I was there. By the way, I run XP20's in the front and XP12's in the rear but mine is a more or less a track only car now and I like a very aggressive bite to my brakes. I am also on a Tarrox BBK so never mind but to say that the Carbotech is a great company to work with and they make a great product.

When are you running AMP? I will be down there in late Nov to run AMP and Road Atlanta.

Dave
 
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Just remember, new and fat brake pads are your best defense against fade due to the insulating effects. Also I recently upgraded to project Mu fluid, it has slightly higher heat tolerance and great feel, little pricey though.
 
Just to update this thread (a bit late I guess) I did one track day (novice class w/ instructor) in the NSX with the Carbotechs. I never removed the brake dust shields. Brakes held up fine but towards the end of the day at the end of the front straight (and towards the end of a given session) I did notice some fade. I took my F80 M3 to the same track as an intermediate and noticed fade at the end of the front straight later in the day and late in sessions. Ran ATE on the M3 and stock pads. I was told that day that this track (Atlanta Motorsports Park) tends to do that on the front straight braking zone really no matter what you do. My last session I went off by about 4 feet (safely) in the M3 due to that fade and still trying to cook good laps.

Also, on the street the Carbotechs have largely been quiet. I occasionally have a squeak but frankly they are a lot quieter than expected.
 
Thanks for the update. Just for my reference, what speeds were you getting up to then braking down too on the front straights in each car? Been thinking of running Carbotechs on my NSX after a great experience with the XP10s on my Mazdaspeed 3.
 

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