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Brakes, Novice vs Intermediate

Joined
28 December 2001
Messages
2,774
Location
Berwyn, PA
Hi,

I will be attending my first HPDE event in 2 weeks with the BMWCCA. I just have a quick question regarding brakes.

My brake pads, rotors and fluid are relatively new (about 4-5 months old). Will I need to put new brake pads and rotors for the first event as a Novice?

If not, when would be a good time to change them - I am attending four more driving events (2 HPDE and 1 AutoX in April, and 1 HPDE and 1 AutoX in May).

Also, at what point do you classify yourself as an Intermediate driver? Is it determined by an instructor or yourself?

Thank you so much in advance.
 
New fluid, pads, rotors alone, don't usually cut it at a HPDE event. These OEM parts are fine for the daily trip to work, or the grocery store, but the speeds at an event are much higher, and the braking much more fierce than street driving.

Improvment to the brake system is always an after thought for beginners. (it was with me) I used to think more power followed by suspension, then tires, then brakes. Well it is almost that in reverse!!!!

Honestly now you WILL be fine with stock pads, and rotors, but definately upgrade your brake fluid the stock fluid WILL boil.... (do a FAQ search) You will not be driving at instructor pace as a novice, but after a few events, you will want to consider upgraded pads and rotors, or even a BBK with ducting in the future. Others will surely reply and state that the OEM rotors will suffice as long as the pads and fluid are improved. I like to believe that brakes are the biggest thing that prevent you and your car to succeed (others will dissagree).

You will learn when you are ready to move up to intermediate in 2 ways. 1) your instructors opinion, and 2) your "gut" feeling. If you are still uncomfortable with driving fast in traffic, and you are being passed by more than you are passing, STAY IN NOVICE!!!
I don't like moving up a level until I feel that I am smoother and quicker than almost 100% of the current run group. Move up any faster, and you will end up causing an accident to yourself, or to others.

With BMWCCA, the instructor will make that call.

Try to stick with a well organized school such as BMWCCA. (very safe)

Read up on what to do before you head out to the track such as emptying your car, checking lugs, tire pressures, fluids. Safety items such as a helmet, belts, rules on the track as far as passing etc. Take it easy, and remember your first events are not to see how fast you can go, but to learn the track, the lines, the braking points etc. Then learn to smooth out these transitions. Next is to be consistant with these transitions lap after lap. Finally (not at your first event) learn to increase the speeds, while staying smooth and consistant.

Happy motoring to you!
 
The OEM rotors and pads are fine for a novice, but you are planning alot of seat time in a short period of time so you will improve and need to think about an upgrade. Your fluids should be changed within 90 days of your event and bleed them after each event. A track pad is recommended and with the number of trackings you are planning I would do that now, the oem pads can not handle the heat that a track pad can. Most beginners use their brakes to much and tend to drag them over a long distance creating alot of heat. Since you are beginning use this time to work on specific braking techniques, and learn the correct methods now instead of bad habbits that will need to be unlearned. Ask your intructor to work with you on breaking. You can read all you want but there is nothing like doing it to get it right. The good thing about your schedule is that you will not have time to forget what you have learned prior to your next event.

Break fluids:

http://www.daliracing.com/v666-5/info/article_read.cfm?articleID=369

and these will help out to:

http://www.daliracing.com/v666-5/catalog/stop_faster/brake_deflector.cfm?focus=474

Good luck and let us know how you did after your first event.

Dave
 
Thank you so much for your help, guys.
I truly appreciate your advice. It is really helpful.

Yes, I have attended an info session regarding how to prepare myself and my car for the first track event. It was very informative.

Since I am a scary cat, I am mostly concerned and focused on brakes the most. I do not care how fast my car can go, but I would like to be able to stop when I want to.

So should I at least get the racing brake fluid for the first event, then?

Thank you.
 
TigerNSX said:
My brake pads, rotors and fluid are relatively new (about 4-5 months old). Will I need to put new brake pads and rotors for the first event as a Novice?

If not, when would be a good time to change them - I am attending four more driving events (2 HPDE and 1 AutoX in April, and 1 HPDE and 1 AutoX in May).
I'll assume your pads and rotors are the stock ones. The stock pads and rotors are actually very good, and perfectly adequate for track use. (I used them for my first 4-5 years of track events in the NSX, before trying other kinds.)

Replace the pads when they are worn. The FAQ tells you how to check the top edge of the outer pad by looking through the spokes of the wheels. To check them more thoroughly (inner pad, and full surface of outer pad in case it is wearing unevenly), you will need to remove the wheels, but as long as they were recently changed and you have full thickness by looking through the spokes, I wouldn't bother.

New front brake pads come with pad material that is 11 mm thick. You can wear them down to about 2 mm for street use, at which point they will start to squeal when the padwear indicator starts to hit the rotor. At the track, you might want to replace them at 3-4 mm thickness, to provide a bit more protection against heat. Keep track of your rate of pad wear. I find that my front pads last 400-700 track miles (3-4 track events), and rears 4-6 events or 800-1200 miles. That helps me know the likelihood of running out of brake pad at any event, based on how thick the pads are when I start out. Based on your rate of wear, if you think you might run out of brake pads at an event, bring new ones with you, or change them before you leave home if you want to avoid the hassle of doing so at the track. (I always bring an extra set of brake pads with me, just in case.)

Rotors need to be replaced if they get thinner than minimum spec (takes a long time), or if they crack. With track use, rotors develop hairline cracks; they get worse and worse. Keep a close eye on them. When the rotors are cool, if you can feel the crack with the edge of your fingernail, it is time to replace the rotors.

As for fluid, my personal rule of thumb is that for track use, fluid should be no older than about six months old. Since our track season in northern climes runs roughly April through October, I like to start with fresh fluid in the Spring (i.e. now). If I lived in a southern climate, and participated in track events year round, I would flush the fluid twice a year.

Since you probably want to flush your fluid now anyway, you may as well get some high-temperature fluid, such as Motul RBF 600. You can read about the boiling points of various fluids, and why this is important, in this topic.

TigerNSX said:
at what point do you classify yourself as an Intermediate driver? Is it determined by an instructor or yourself?
Do it when you find that you are faster than almost all the people in the beginner run group in the previous year's event. (Basically, what Tom already said.)

The breakdown of run groups varies with the group holding the event, as well as with the event itself. There are some events where 50+ percent of the drivers have 0-2 track events of experience, and others where those constitute less than 20 percent of the drivers. So you might find yourself in the beginner group at one track event, and in an intermediate group at another.

The determination depends on the group holding the event. Some organizations will ask you how many track events of experience you have had and make their determination from that, while others will ask you to classify yourself as novice, intermediate, etc. Once you are at the event, if you find that you are faster (or slower) than ALL the other cars in the group, you can ask your instructor if he or she can move you up (or down) to the next group.
 
TigerNSX said:
should I at least get the racing brake fluid for the first event, then?

Thank you.

I don't think any one will dissagree with my answer.

YES

Check out the FAQ's about name brands and boiling points etc. If you are unfamiliar with bleeding them, take your car to a good shop and have them switch your fluid for you. Let them know you are going to be doing a school, so they take their time bleeding your system so it is rock hard and bubble free. Some poor shops do a terrible job at bleeding new fluid for track use.

Stock "Honda" pads are ok for novice track use, but cheap aftermarket pads (Autozone, Napa etc) will NOT cut it. The NSX is pretty good on brake pad life, but other cars may not always be as good. On my Integra, I went through a set every 2 sessions (60 minutes!!!) with a Wilwood 4 piston caliper on a 13" rotor. Check your pads, lugs, and fluids (brake, oil, gas) after EVERY session. You may want to bring an extra set for front AND rear pads along just in case. Last year at our event, an NSX driver was watching his front pads all weekend, and they held up, but Sunday morning his rears were gone, preventing him from doing the last 2 sessions.
 
Thank you so much for the great answers as always, NSXTACY and T Bell. I don't know how to thank you for your time!


T Bell:
It's at Lime Rock, CT on 3/30. I am making it a day trip (about 2.5 hours from Boston). If you would like, I can always give you a ride.
 
I agree with much of what Ken has said above. I ran my first several track events with stock everything, and only had the dreaded shudders when the pads and rotors became very hot. For autoX, you will not really need anything else, as most "racing" pads require they get fairly hot before working as designed.

As far as fluid, you can easily go cheap and use Ford Super duty. It is only $2.xx per bottle, and easily bled to refresh as needed. If you do not want to bleed often (i.e., after each event), then look at Motul or the more expensive higher boiling point fluids.

If you decide to go with "racing" pads, then you will have another quandry, as many of us use many different compounds. Much like the fluid, it becomes a personal choice, and all have both strong points, and problems, to create the compromise they must be. Confused?:D
 
I agree Tiger that as long as your stock components are fresh you need not bother with aftermarket untill you are ready to.As your experience and seat time grows you will become the best judge of what your equipment is doing or is in need of.As you learn the techniques of performance track driving,you need to learn some of the theory and gain practical knowledge of your cars' parts under stress.I would also say that AUTO X places no greater stress on your break system than a spirited run on your favorite roads.If you need your brakes that bad during auto x then you don't quite have it yet.
 
ncdogdoc said:
I agree with much of what Ken has said above. I ran my first several track events with stock everything, and only had the dreaded shudders when the pads and rotors became very hot.

What is the cause of this shudder? Was it warped rotors? I noticed yesterday after some spirited driving that after the system heated up a bit there was some shudder braking from high speeds. This shudder went away after the brake system cooled back down. Everything seems normal now.

I am a bit concerned because I will be attending my first HPDE in two weeks at Sebring. I have heard that Sebring is pretty hard on brakes so if I need to replace the rotors, I would like to do it as soon as possible. However, if the rotors are warped, I would think they would shudder all the time which they do not. Any suggestions or information would be very helpful.
 
OK so I should have searched first. I usually do. The shudder is caused by brake pad deposits on the rotor surface. I will reference a page from Stoptech's web site that nsxtacy has mentioned in past posts.

Can I clean this off with some steel wool or fine grit sand paper? I would rather not get them turned. Any suggestions?
 
I believe a fine grit sandpaper would be alright. I think Rob has done this before and had good results.
 
Ponyboy said:
I believe a fine grit sandpaper would be alright. I think Rob has done this before and had good results.

Thanks. I am going to try that out this weekend. I'll post back and let everyone know the results for future reference.
 
How many HPDE's can the stock Rotors handle. I ask b/c ojas cracked his new RM racing rotors lask wknd at TWS.

I have done 5 HPDE's with Stock Rotors, Cobalt friction GT sports in the front, Axxis in the rear, and new ATE blue/gold post every event.

TIA
 
NSXLuvr said:
How many HPDE's can the stock Rotors handle.
Front rotors: There's no "magic number" of events. Some people use the brakes more than others, and so some people create more heat than others (and it's heat that will eventually lead to cracking or shudder problems that will cause replacement, well before the rotors get too thin to use). Proper bedding of new pads will extend the life of the rotors, too. Bottom line: They may last as few as four events, or as many as ten or even much more.

Rear rotors: I don't know. I've gotten upwards of forty events on a set and they're still fine.
 
NSXLuvr said:
How many HPDE's can the stock Rotors handle. I ask b/c ojas cracked his new RM racing rotors lask wknd at TWS.

I have done 5 HPDE's with Stock Rotors, Cobalt friction GT sports in the front, Axxis in the rear, and new ATE blue/gold post every event.

TIA


I have seen Ojas's rotors that he runs! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Some of us have a 5" fat lip on the rear rim, while Ojas has a 5mm fat lip on his rotor from the pads eating away the rotor!
 
Do you guys who of any thickness data on the rotors. Is there a way to know when to replace the rotors. I am going get done alot of stuff on the car(6 years/60K maintenance) and was going to go ahead and replace the front rotors as preventive maintenance.

TIA
 
NSXLuvr said:
Do you guys who of any thickness data on the rotors. Is there a way to know when to replace the rotors. I am going get done alot of stuff on the car(6 years/60K maintenance) and was going to go ahead and replace the front rotors as preventive maintenance.

TIA

Online repair manual page 697 of 1420

when new 28mm

thin 26mm
 
If the rotors are not close to the minimum 26 mm thickness spec, and they do not have any other problems (cracking or shudder), then there is no need to replace them for "preventive maintenance". Save your money...
 
nsxtasy said:
If the rotors are not close to the minimum 26 mm thickness spec, and they do not have any other problems (cracking or shudder), then there is no need to replace them for "preventive maintenance". Save your money...

Got it- Thanks as usual.
 
Tiger,
To a great extent comparing brake component life on one track to another is comparing apples and oranges. A factor to consider in pad & rotor life is the track you'll be running on, or more specifically the speed deltas at the corners. Every track is different.

One of the tracks here in town requires braking from 125 MPH down to 60 in an N/A NSX. This usually causes shudder in OEM NSX brakes and comes dangerously close to boiling Motul 600. Myself and other NSXers have learned this the hard way. With a second person in my car the fluid started to boil and the pedal started sinking just before the apex. At this same track (Firebird Main) SC'd NSXs can hit 140 MPH.

At Phoenix International, you brake from 100 to about 50. OEM NSX brakes can handle this.

Brake shudder and fluid boil (actually the amount of heat generated) is a function of initial and final speed under braking. The kinetic energy of the car is dissipated as heat. Higher speed=more kinetic energy=more heat under braking. But you knew that :)
 
Another factor is the ambient temperature, which can be very different between, say, Phoenix International or Firebird, and Watkins Glen or Elkhart Lake.
 
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