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Changing transmission oil
- Thread starter gobble
- Start date
I know the NSX requires the replacement of both transmission fluid and clutch fluid.
Can someone please define what a "transaxle" is while answering the question? Thanks.
Can someone please define what a "transaxle" is while answering the question? Thanks.
Taken from Webster's:
Transaxle:
A unit that consists of a combination of transmission and front axle used in front-wheel-drive automobiles.
Transaxle:
A unit that consists of a combination of transmission and front axle used in front-wheel-drive automobiles.
Something tells me that definition isn't exactly appropriate for the NSX...
Agreed, but it should/could apply to transversly mounted engines, as the NSX is. But, I've never heard of the fluid coined as "transaxle" fluid. Just tranny fluid, which is one and the same as the diff fluid. So, as to finally answer the questions, yes, all you have to replace is the "transmission" fluid, no transaxle fluid to worry about.
BTW, nsxtasy, hats off to you sir, your discussion on tire contact patch size v. tire width was excellent, thank you for your due dilligence!
-Hubert
[This message has been edited by bb6 (edited 28 April 2002).]
BTW, nsxtasy, hats off to you sir, your discussion on tire contact patch size v. tire width was excellent, thank you for your due dilligence!
-Hubert
[This message has been edited by bb6 (edited 28 April 2002).]
[This message has been edited by NSXTC (edited 29 April 2002).]
Transaxle is the correct term. Look at the index page of the service manual. This terminology is also applicable to the 911 and the Pantera to name a couple of other mid/rear engine sports cars, although you are not incorrect to call it a transmission either. Transxale is a more precise term to describe what the NSX has.
Speaking of the service manual, the mysterious "transaxle fluid" is none other than 10w30 motor oil, at least for manual tranny cars. For automatics, you would use ATF, hence perhaps the confusion.
See page 13-3 http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Reference/1991_svcman/1991servman.pdf
The clutch fluid on the other hand is simply brake fluid.
Although we just need regular motor oil in the tranny, some folks like to put in special tranny "fluid" like the stuff from Redline, so I think that causes some confusion. Anyway, here is the DIY procedure, curtesy of Brent Cobb:
The service interval for the manual transmission fluid on the NSX is "replace every 30,000 miles". Have you had yours changed out at this interval? Well if not, and you'd like to know more, read on.
Like with the other "types" of fluids in the NSX, you always have a choice on what to use.
Now, this is just what I believe is true, so I'm hoping it is correct. Ha! (You should never doubt the master anyway). In the past, NSX techs used just "regular" 10W-30 motor oil in the NSX tranny. I remember when my snap ring broke they used Quaker State 10W-30 motor oil. It worked fine. Then, in time, the NSX techs started using Honda Manual Tranny Fluid. When I replaced my clutch, they used that Honda fluid. That fluid worked well as well. Now in our "modern" times, another commonly used tranny fluid is produced by "Redline". There are two different "flavors" of tranny fluids made by Redline: MTL and MT-90. The reason I'll concentrate of Redline's products is that I just changed-out my tranny fluid with Redline's MT-90 synthetic gear oil! Note that others have used other synthetic (Mobil 1 for example) oils with good results. Anyhow, more about the synthetic fluid (Redline MT-90) I chose...
Straight from Redline: "Red Line Gear Oils and Transmission Lubricants are designed to provide excellent low-temperature shiftability and improved gear protection at higher temperatures. Red Line Gear Oils will reduce differential temperatures 10-70°F. Efficiency improvements between 1-5% are typical. The synthetic base stocks used have tremendous thermal stability and provide the best film strength available. The unique combination of base stocks and additives allow Red Line gear and transmission oils to carry higher loads compared to petroleum lubricants. The stability of these products allow them to be used for extended periods."
More technical information from Redline: "RED LINE MTL and MT-90 are designed to provide excellent protection and improved shiftability for manual transmissions and transaxles. MTL and MT-90 have cured the problem of hard shifting in numerous transmissions which have notoriously difficult shifting. The secret to their success is two-fold. First, they have the appropriate coefficient of friction for most manual transmission synchronizers. Many gear oils, engine oils, and ATFs are too slippery for proper synchro engagement. Secondly, the viscosity characteristics of MTL and MT-90 allow proper shifting over the entire temperature range which the transmission will experience. The synthetic base oils used have a very high viscosity index which provides relatively constant viscosity as temperature changes. MTL is a low 70W at very low temperatures and a high 80W, nearly an 85W, at elevated temperatures, providing adequate viscosity to prevent wear and deaden gear noise. MT-90 is a thicker 75W90 version of MTL. The shear stability and oxidation stability of these products are excellent, thus the physical characteristics of Red Line MTL and MT-90 will change little with use."
They continue, "Red Line MTL is classified as a 70W80 gear lubricant satisfying the API Service requirements of GL-3 and GL-4. MTL also satisfies motor oil viscosities SAE 5W/10W/30, and the viscosity requirements for ATFs. MT-90 is a 75W90 GL-4 and also satisfies motor oil viscosities SAE 10W/15W/40. The additive chemistry used is non-corrosive, so even though they will provide GL-4 performance, they will not corrode synchros or bushings. Because of its low corrosivity, Red Line MTL and MT-90 could also be used in transmissions requiring GL-1 or GL-3 lubricants. Seal compatibility is designed to be similar to petroleum-based lubricants."
<img src=http://www.anytimeracing.com/diy/trannyflush_files/mtl.jpg>
PICTURE CAPTION: "A 70W80 GL-4 gear oil (SAE 5W30/10W30 engine oil viscosity) designed for use in manual transmissions and transaxles. Provides excellent protection of gears and synchronizers and its balanced slipperiness provides a perfect coefficient of friction, allowing easier shifting." Comptech sells the MTL for $8.95 a bottle.
It also has been noted at Lud's site that the MTL is best used in the NSX in the "colder" regions of the US, and the MT-90 is better suited for the "hotter" regions of the US. Of course, the MTL is just a little thinner than the MT-90. Because it was 80 degrees in San Antonio, this week, I chose the MT-90. It is also noteworthy that the Comptech race NSXes use(d) MT-90 in thier cars, and I also believe Comptech requires you to use a synthetic (preferably Redline I guess) gear oil if you purcahse their 4.55 Ring and Pinion.
I have read several "reviews" about the Reline gear oil product line in the FAQ. There seems to be everything from "it's great - better tranny feel" to "I don't feel any difference" all the way to "tranny did not like it and went back to Honda fluid." I've never really put much faith in "personal reviews" because each individual may be looking for "something different" when they try something new. So far, I've noticed nothing negative with the new Redline fluid - I've also noticed nothing positive. However, I am "petting" the NSX for a while because of my recent engine "re-do" break-in period. So, my "true" opinion probably will not be formed until I REALLY start driving the NSX and until I hit the track again. My suggestion is to just try it - you can always change out the fluid again if it does not meet your expectations. For me, the fluid has met my expectations so far...
So, let's now say you want to change your NSX's tranny fluid out for whatever reason - want to try a synthetic "racing" fluid, you're past the 30,000 mile interval, you you're bored.
So, with that, here's what you'll need.
- Get 3 bottles (1 US quart each) of tranny fluid or whatever you'll use. The NSX will take 2.9 quarts of fluid if you just drain - 3.0 quarts after an overhaul.
- Get some type of "funnel system" to fill the tranny. The tranny is filled "from the side" and not from the top, so you'll need some type of funnel with a "tube attached". I use a "aquarium syphon tube and hose" for this:
<img src=http://www.anytimeracing.com/diy/trannyflush_files/View.jpg>
PICTURE CAPTION: This is a syphon tube used to clean aquariums. I went to the local "fish supply" place and picked it up for about $7.00. It allows you to put the hose in the tranny's fill hole and pour the tranny fluid in the clear plastic "tube". It's kinda a "specialized" funnel! A regular funnel and tube would work well too.
- Get two crush washers from Tracy. One for the tranny fill plug (20mm washer = #94109-2000) and one for the tranny drain plug (14mm washer = 94109-14000). Play it safe and use new washers - not just the old washers.
- A ratchet (3/8") and possibly a breaker bar (1/2").
- To make it easy, a couple of 12" 3/8" extensions and a 1/2" to 3/8" converter socket for your 1/2" Breaker bar.
- 17mm socket.
- Oil catch pan/plate.
- Troque wrench. (ft-lb)
So, that's what you need. Here's how you do it:
- It works best if you drive the NSX around a little to warm the fluid - WATCH OUT, the fluid CAN be VERY HOT!!! You can drain cold, but "warm" works best.
- Jacks, jackstands, engine compartment/engine cover open, parking brake, trann neutral.
- Remove driver's side rear wheel.
- Locate the tranny "oil fill plug". You want to un-do this bolt/plug first before draining - you do not want to drain all the fluid out and then not be able to refill it! (When the wheel is out, get inside the wheel well and look straight at the tranny. Look at the part of the tranny where the driveshaft enters into the tranny. Right close to the right of the driveshaft/CV joint is a 17mm bolt with a washer. It is the only 17mm bolt just to the right of the CV joint going into the tranny!)
- Remove this bolt, clean it, and install the new washer on it. When you take off the fill bolt, some fluid will probably ooze out - have your catch pan ready!!! Sit the bolt aside. You can get to the bolt through the wheel well or from the bottom. Some try from the top through the engine compartment, but I think that's pretty difficult. Use two 12" extensions and attach the 17mm socket to the end. Use the breaker bar at the other end. The extensions will be right at the top of the brake rotoe - no u-joint adapter needed!
- Locate the "oil drain plug". The plug is on the same "face" of the tranny. However, it is BELOW the CV joint/driveshaft you found below. It has a "square" in the middle of the bolt - you can fit a ratchet in the square hole and remove the bolt that way, or use an extension to do the same. It is located 90 degrees clockwise from the oil drian bolt and is the only bolt below the CV joint with a "square" hole. Easy to find!
- Remove the drain bolt and let the oil fall into the catch pan. You can put a 3/8" adpater on your breaker bar and "attack" the bolt from below - that works best. If the tranny is hot/warm, be careful NOT to get the hot fluid on your skin! Some thick gloves may be in order here if you get worried...
- Let the fluid COMPLETELY drain - I let mine drain for a couple of hours - up to you. ***SECRET***: If you jack the driver's side, remove the driver's side jack stands, and lower the driver's side just a little, you can get a little more fluid out.
- Replace the drain bolt (square hole) with a NEW washer and torque to 29 ft-lb.
- Get you're funnel apparatus and place the end of the hose into the "fill hole". You can route the hose from the top of the engine compartment or from the side - I like the side better but both work. Pour your fluid into the funnel/tube part and start filling the tranny with fluid.
- At the end of your 3rd quart, the hole should start overfilling (total capacity (2.9 quart). Once fluid overflows from the fill hole, the tranny is full. That is the only way to check to see if the tranny is full of fluid.
- Replace the fill hole bolt with a NEW washer and torque to 33 ft-lb.
- Re-torque both bolts and make sure you have 3 (or 2.9) empty tranny fluid bottles. Re-install wheel (torque to 80 ft-lb), and lower.
That's all there is to it! Remember your service interval, and try it yourself. It is not hard at all, and you'll have a blast helping make your tranny happy! And you know what that means - a happy tranny makes you NSX happy!
[This message has been edited by NSXTC (edited 29 April 2002).]
Speaking of the service manual, the mysterious "transaxle fluid" is none other than 10w30 motor oil, at least for manual tranny cars. For automatics, you would use ATF, hence perhaps the confusion.
See page 13-3 http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Reference/1991_svcman/1991servman.pdf
The clutch fluid on the other hand is simply brake fluid.
Although we just need regular motor oil in the tranny, some folks like to put in special tranny "fluid" like the stuff from Redline, so I think that causes some confusion. Anyway, here is the DIY procedure, curtesy of Brent Cobb:
The service interval for the manual transmission fluid on the NSX is "replace every 30,000 miles". Have you had yours changed out at this interval? Well if not, and you'd like to know more, read on.
Like with the other "types" of fluids in the NSX, you always have a choice on what to use.
Now, this is just what I believe is true, so I'm hoping it is correct. Ha! (You should never doubt the master anyway). In the past, NSX techs used just "regular" 10W-30 motor oil in the NSX tranny. I remember when my snap ring broke they used Quaker State 10W-30 motor oil. It worked fine. Then, in time, the NSX techs started using Honda Manual Tranny Fluid. When I replaced my clutch, they used that Honda fluid. That fluid worked well as well. Now in our "modern" times, another commonly used tranny fluid is produced by "Redline". There are two different "flavors" of tranny fluids made by Redline: MTL and MT-90. The reason I'll concentrate of Redline's products is that I just changed-out my tranny fluid with Redline's MT-90 synthetic gear oil! Note that others have used other synthetic (Mobil 1 for example) oils with good results. Anyhow, more about the synthetic fluid (Redline MT-90) I chose...
Straight from Redline: "Red Line Gear Oils and Transmission Lubricants are designed to provide excellent low-temperature shiftability and improved gear protection at higher temperatures. Red Line Gear Oils will reduce differential temperatures 10-70°F. Efficiency improvements between 1-5% are typical. The synthetic base stocks used have tremendous thermal stability and provide the best film strength available. The unique combination of base stocks and additives allow Red Line gear and transmission oils to carry higher loads compared to petroleum lubricants. The stability of these products allow them to be used for extended periods."
More technical information from Redline: "RED LINE MTL and MT-90 are designed to provide excellent protection and improved shiftability for manual transmissions and transaxles. MTL and MT-90 have cured the problem of hard shifting in numerous transmissions which have notoriously difficult shifting. The secret to their success is two-fold. First, they have the appropriate coefficient of friction for most manual transmission synchronizers. Many gear oils, engine oils, and ATFs are too slippery for proper synchro engagement. Secondly, the viscosity characteristics of MTL and MT-90 allow proper shifting over the entire temperature range which the transmission will experience. The synthetic base oils used have a very high viscosity index which provides relatively constant viscosity as temperature changes. MTL is a low 70W at very low temperatures and a high 80W, nearly an 85W, at elevated temperatures, providing adequate viscosity to prevent wear and deaden gear noise. MT-90 is a thicker 75W90 version of MTL. The shear stability and oxidation stability of these products are excellent, thus the physical characteristics of Red Line MTL and MT-90 will change little with use."
They continue, "Red Line MTL is classified as a 70W80 gear lubricant satisfying the API Service requirements of GL-3 and GL-4. MTL also satisfies motor oil viscosities SAE 5W/10W/30, and the viscosity requirements for ATFs. MT-90 is a 75W90 GL-4 and also satisfies motor oil viscosities SAE 10W/15W/40. The additive chemistry used is non-corrosive, so even though they will provide GL-4 performance, they will not corrode synchros or bushings. Because of its low corrosivity, Red Line MTL and MT-90 could also be used in transmissions requiring GL-1 or GL-3 lubricants. Seal compatibility is designed to be similar to petroleum-based lubricants."
<img src=http://www.anytimeracing.com/diy/trannyflush_files/mtl.jpg>
PICTURE CAPTION: "A 70W80 GL-4 gear oil (SAE 5W30/10W30 engine oil viscosity) designed for use in manual transmissions and transaxles. Provides excellent protection of gears and synchronizers and its balanced slipperiness provides a perfect coefficient of friction, allowing easier shifting." Comptech sells the MTL for $8.95 a bottle.
It also has been noted at Lud's site that the MTL is best used in the NSX in the "colder" regions of the US, and the MT-90 is better suited for the "hotter" regions of the US. Of course, the MTL is just a little thinner than the MT-90. Because it was 80 degrees in San Antonio, this week, I chose the MT-90. It is also noteworthy that the Comptech race NSXes use(d) MT-90 in thier cars, and I also believe Comptech requires you to use a synthetic (preferably Redline I guess) gear oil if you purcahse their 4.55 Ring and Pinion.
I have read several "reviews" about the Reline gear oil product line in the FAQ. There seems to be everything from "it's great - better tranny feel" to "I don't feel any difference" all the way to "tranny did not like it and went back to Honda fluid." I've never really put much faith in "personal reviews" because each individual may be looking for "something different" when they try something new. So far, I've noticed nothing negative with the new Redline fluid - I've also noticed nothing positive. However, I am "petting" the NSX for a while because of my recent engine "re-do" break-in period. So, my "true" opinion probably will not be formed until I REALLY start driving the NSX and until I hit the track again. My suggestion is to just try it - you can always change out the fluid again if it does not meet your expectations. For me, the fluid has met my expectations so far...
So, let's now say you want to change your NSX's tranny fluid out for whatever reason - want to try a synthetic "racing" fluid, you're past the 30,000 mile interval, you you're bored.
So, with that, here's what you'll need.
- Get 3 bottles (1 US quart each) of tranny fluid or whatever you'll use. The NSX will take 2.9 quarts of fluid if you just drain - 3.0 quarts after an overhaul.
- Get some type of "funnel system" to fill the tranny. The tranny is filled "from the side" and not from the top, so you'll need some type of funnel with a "tube attached". I use a "aquarium syphon tube and hose" for this:
<img src=http://www.anytimeracing.com/diy/trannyflush_files/View.jpg>
PICTURE CAPTION: This is a syphon tube used to clean aquariums. I went to the local "fish supply" place and picked it up for about $7.00. It allows you to put the hose in the tranny's fill hole and pour the tranny fluid in the clear plastic "tube". It's kinda a "specialized" funnel! A regular funnel and tube would work well too.
- Get two crush washers from Tracy. One for the tranny fill plug (20mm washer = #94109-2000) and one for the tranny drain plug (14mm washer = 94109-14000). Play it safe and use new washers - not just the old washers.
- A ratchet (3/8") and possibly a breaker bar (1/2").
- To make it easy, a couple of 12" 3/8" extensions and a 1/2" to 3/8" converter socket for your 1/2" Breaker bar.
- 17mm socket.
- Oil catch pan/plate.
- Troque wrench. (ft-lb)
So, that's what you need. Here's how you do it:
- It works best if you drive the NSX around a little to warm the fluid - WATCH OUT, the fluid CAN be VERY HOT!!! You can drain cold, but "warm" works best.
- Jacks, jackstands, engine compartment/engine cover open, parking brake, trann neutral.
- Remove driver's side rear wheel.
- Locate the tranny "oil fill plug". You want to un-do this bolt/plug first before draining - you do not want to drain all the fluid out and then not be able to refill it! (When the wheel is out, get inside the wheel well and look straight at the tranny. Look at the part of the tranny where the driveshaft enters into the tranny. Right close to the right of the driveshaft/CV joint is a 17mm bolt with a washer. It is the only 17mm bolt just to the right of the CV joint going into the tranny!)
- Remove this bolt, clean it, and install the new washer on it. When you take off the fill bolt, some fluid will probably ooze out - have your catch pan ready!!! Sit the bolt aside. You can get to the bolt through the wheel well or from the bottom. Some try from the top through the engine compartment, but I think that's pretty difficult. Use two 12" extensions and attach the 17mm socket to the end. Use the breaker bar at the other end. The extensions will be right at the top of the brake rotoe - no u-joint adapter needed!
- Locate the "oil drain plug". The plug is on the same "face" of the tranny. However, it is BELOW the CV joint/driveshaft you found below. It has a "square" in the middle of the bolt - you can fit a ratchet in the square hole and remove the bolt that way, or use an extension to do the same. It is located 90 degrees clockwise from the oil drian bolt and is the only bolt below the CV joint with a "square" hole. Easy to find!
- Remove the drain bolt and let the oil fall into the catch pan. You can put a 3/8" adpater on your breaker bar and "attack" the bolt from below - that works best. If the tranny is hot/warm, be careful NOT to get the hot fluid on your skin! Some thick gloves may be in order here if you get worried...
- Let the fluid COMPLETELY drain - I let mine drain for a couple of hours - up to you. ***SECRET***: If you jack the driver's side, remove the driver's side jack stands, and lower the driver's side just a little, you can get a little more fluid out.
- Replace the drain bolt (square hole) with a NEW washer and torque to 29 ft-lb.
- Get you're funnel apparatus and place the end of the hose into the "fill hole". You can route the hose from the top of the engine compartment or from the side - I like the side better but both work. Pour your fluid into the funnel/tube part and start filling the tranny with fluid.
- At the end of your 3rd quart, the hole should start overfilling (total capacity (2.9 quart). Once fluid overflows from the fill hole, the tranny is full. That is the only way to check to see if the tranny is full of fluid.
- Replace the fill hole bolt with a NEW washer and torque to 33 ft-lb.
- Re-torque both bolts and make sure you have 3 (or 2.9) empty tranny fluid bottles. Re-install wheel (torque to 80 ft-lb), and lower.
That's all there is to it! Remember your service interval, and try it yourself. It is not hard at all, and you'll have a blast helping make your tranny happy! And you know what that means - a happy tranny makes you NSX happy!
[This message has been edited by NSXTC (edited 29 April 2002).]
http://www.anytimeracing.com/diy/trannyflush_files/View.jpg
Looks like a weener pump!!!LOL
Sorry I couldn't resist!!
------------------
Looks like a weener pump!!!LOL
Sorry I couldn't resist!!
------------------
Well, it's not mine! but you can probably add some 10W-30 and it will get nice and slick! ;Q This topic was really timely, as it just so happened that I driained and refilled my tranny this weekend with some nice Mobil 1 10W30. The old stuff was really dirty. Not sure how long it was in there. The tranny oil really is a "forgotten fluid" Anyway, maybe it was my imagination, but I swear the car felt noticably faster!
[This message has been edited by NSXTC (edited 29 April 2002).]
[This message has been edited by NSXTC (edited 29 April 2002).]
Yes smart idea .... and there is one in my aquarium stand too dahhh ....... Actually this could be the solution for Basch SC oil cap access .........
So do I get a free Basch SC for this .....
[This message has been edited by Hrant (edited 29 April 2002).]
Transaxle Definition
A transmission that contains the final drive (like the NSX's) is called a transaxle.
A transmission that contains the final drive (like the NSX's) is called a transaxle.
