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How a War With Iraq Will Change the World

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How a War With Iraq Will Change the World

FORTUNE Magazine
By Bill Powell

They made 16,000 of them the last time: Sacks that are about eight feet long and three feet across, with six handles and a zipper across the top. "Human Remains Pouches" is the horrible phrase the Pentagon uses for them, but everyone else knows them by the vernacular: body bags.


Remember the run-up to the first war with Iraq, Operation Desert Storm? The U.S. was headed to war, and for the first time since Vietnam we were going to take casualties, probably numerous.


Or so we thought. Three hundred and ninety American troops died in Gulf War I, a figure that is larger than what you may remember, but far, far smaller than what we had feared. Now, 11 years later, the U.S. military is fresh from subduing a band of fanatic tribal warriors in a country sprung straight from the Middle Ages, a conflict that was, on our side anyway, even more bloodless than Operation Desert Storm. This recent history of no-muss, no-fuss military success serves now as the critical backdrop to an atmosphere, both in Washington and across the country, that one eminence grise in the nation's capital reasonably describes as "surreal." We appear headed for round two with Saddam Hussein. And this time, as an HBO promo might have it, it's for keeps.


That prospect, even if it is probably a year away at best, is hugely serious business. No matter how smoothly (knock wood) any eventual military operation goes, a "regime change" in Iraq will have vast geopolitical and economic consequences. Some of them might be good, some not so good, and some of them could be horrible. But consequences there will be, for Iraq, for the region, and for the world. What is "surreal" is that for the most part, for now anyway, a lot of people in Washington talk about punching out Saddam the way they talk about, say, passing an education bill. Everyone's in favor, passage is a done deal, everyone will take credit, but please, spare us the details.


This state of denial isn't limited to the Beltway either. Stock analysts, economists, and other pundits do contortions every day trying to explain why, in a reasonably healthy economy, the stock market is so bad and so many corporate executives remain in a blue funk. They seem to focus on everything other than the 800-pound gorilla sitting in the room. Paul O'Neill, the Secretary of the Treasury, went so far as to say in mid-June that the market's recent slump was "inexplicable." But somewhere in the minds of investors, CEOs, and the man in the street are the following facts: Nine months ago the World Trade Center towers collapsed after the most heinous terrorist attack in this country's history. The man responsible for organizing it, Osama bin Laden, is unaccounted for. One of his alleged acolytes has just been arrested for planning to set off a "dirty bomb" somewhere, presumably in New York City or Washington. Meanwhile, in the Middle East, the Israelis and the Palestinians slaughter each other daily. That fuels anti-American sentiment in the Arab world as the U.S. talks big about taking out an Arab despot who has openly--and in his own way successfully--defied the U.S. for more than a decade. (He may be an S.O.B., but he's their S.O.B.)


Pardon the cliche, but markets hate uncertainty, and in that volatile mix of facts lies a whole heap of it. With all due respect to the Secretary of the Treasury, the market's continuing weakness is not necessarily all that inexplicable, and it probably isn't entirely related to funny accounting or whether Cisco meets its whisper numbers next quarter.
The fact is, by the beginning of summer 2003, if not sooner, the U.S. could be in the middle of Desert Storm II, with tens of thousands of troops headed back to Iraq, this time not to restore an oil-rich monarchy to its throne but to put Saddam out of our misery once and for all. So before the 2002 summer doldrums set in, let's at least start to think seriously about what the implications of that may be.


It's necessary, in any effort to game out scenarios for what a regime change in Iraq may mean for the world, to start with a basic question that George W. Bush has already settled in his own mind. Is it really necessary? Bush has decided that it is. The decision to get rid of Saddam, telegraphed first in his now famous Axis of Evil speech and most recently in a commencement address at West Point, is not rooted in some Shakespearean grudge, a desire to correct what is now widely perceived (rightly or wrongly) to be a family mistake: his father's "failure" to get rid of Saddam in 1991. For W., it's all about Sept. 11 and three inescapable truths. When U.N. inspectors left Iraq in late 1998, Saddam still had weapons of mass destruction, or WMD, at his disposal, despite the fact that UNSCOM (as the U.N. inspection agency was known) for more than two years had incinerators disposing of WMD materiel nonstop 24 hours a day. Saddam already has biological and chemical capacity, and he is well down the road to developing a nuclear capability that, if attained, would alter the balance of power in the Middle East forever. Inescapable reality No. 2 is that since UNSCOM departed, several Iraqi defectors have said that Saddam has redoubled his efforts to develop those programs, despite the very real burden U.N.-mandated economic sanctions have placed on those efforts. And fact No. 3 is that Sept. 11 showed all of us, a new President included, that the U.S. has ruthless enemies that not only aim to hurt us but can. Saddam is one of them. Therefore, he must go.
Supporters of Bush's conclusion believe that the status quo--keeping Saddam in a box with sanctions and a new inspection regime--simply can't be sustained indefinitely; that, in the words of Charles A. Duelfer, former No. 2 man at UNSCOM, it amounts to a policy of "slow-motion suicide." Saddam, or one of his like-minded comrades, will use those weapons of mass destruction eventually, and it will make Sept. 11 look like a junior-varsity exercise in death and destruction. Thus, the time has come to do whatever it takes to get rid of him.


Everyone, of course, hopes that a fed-up Iraqi general finally does what almost everyone outside Iraq has wanted for 11 years and offs Saddam in the still of the night. It's not likely to happen. As Nabeel Musawi, who helped lead the Kurdish rebels in the north of Iraq until they were abandoned by the Clinton Administration in 1996, says, there have been no fewer than six coup attempts since the Gulf war in 1991. None has really come close to succeeding. And Musawi, like many others, believes it's a "fantasy'' to think that it's going to happen now. The reason it hasn't, he says, "is hardly a coincidence. Saddam's entire regime, the whole paranoid security structure, is designed precisely so that it doesn't." That, indeed, is why Tommy Franks, head of the U.S. Central Command, and the other U.S. generals are finally, if reluctantly, beginning to draw up plans for a military operation that could involve up to 200,000 U.S. troops. If Saddam has to go, we are the ones who are going to have to do it.


The logic behind Bush's conclusion is sufficiently compelling that a lot of foreign-policy types who are not by instinct hawks accept it. The surprising thing is that some of Saddam's neighbors--the people you'd think would most want to be rid of him--don't. At least not completely. And the reason is that they simply don't believe the Administration has given enough thought to what the consequences of a move against Saddam might be. Neither Saudi Arabia nor Turkey, two of the most important players in Saddam's neighborhood, oppose removing him per se. They are the leaders of what can be called the law-of-unintended-consequences crowd. They fear that the most likely method of ousting Saddam--another large-scale U.S. invasion--could lead to madness. And though the Saudis for very good reason are hardly in good odor among many Americans since Sept. 11, their concerns are not idle.


First, they are not alone in believing that Saddam is in a box and that he isn't much of a threat to anyone anymore (his own people, in this cold-blooded calculation, excluded). "There is an argument that Saddam is deterrable, so why not just deter him," says Michael O'Hanlon, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. The basic assumption here is that Saddam wants to stay in power until he dies a natural death, and that he knows that if he is ever linked to the use of WMD in the U.S. or Israel, he's history. So if he's unlikely to make real trouble in the region anymore, why risk a military invasion now?


The logic of that argument goes further: An attack intended to get rid of Saddam will prompt him to use whatever weapons of mass destruction he has, specifically against Israel, to widen the war and go down as a modern-day Saladin, the slayer of infidels. And in fact, if he's going out anyway, it's hard to believe he wouldn't want to do so in what in his mind is a blaze of glory. U.N. inspectors believe he has managed to hide 12 to 18 Scud missiles left over from the Gulf war and has legally continued to work on short-range missile development--some of which is applicable toward long-range missiles. Further, Saddam has devoted significant resources to figuring out how to keep chemical agents floating in the air--"aerosol-dispensing technology," in WMD argot. If he believes he's going down, everything he has will probably be headed toward Israel. If any of it hits its intended target and the Israelis retaliate, "chaos" is a mild word for what will ensue. A region-wide conflagration, an oil embargo, ever more hatred directed at Israel's sponsor, the U.S. You get the picture. Leave him alone, say the containment advocates, and eventually the world will be rid of him.


Here, as University of Maryland political scientist Shibley Telhami says, "context, and the tenor of the times," are critically important. Again, no one has any brief for Saddam, but skeptics ask, simply, Is this really the moment? Eleven years ago the Arab world was not nearly as inflamed as it is now, its TVs not teeming with images of intifada and the Israelis' iron-fisted response to the deadly reality of teenage suicide bombers. Like it or not, the Saudis and the Egyptians are two of America's critical allies in the Middle East, and their governments are now under fierce pressure from their own population because of it. A campaign against Saddam, particularly one that involves massive air bombardment and attendant civilian casualties (which it will) could have a convulsive impact across the region, even if the Bush Administration manages to rein in the violence with its frantic proposals for a Palestinian state. (And if by contrast the heat doesn't diminish, Saddam may well get a free pass, which is why he will continue writing big checks to the parents of Palestinian suicide bombers.)


How convulsive might the reaction be? Ellen Laipson, a sober-minded Iraq specialist who was vice chairman of the CIA's National Intelligence Council until earlier this year, says the Saudis, among others, "can't really be blamed" for being worried. For 11 years they have played a double game with their own people and with the U.S., allowing U.S. troops on the sacred soil of Islam while permitting clerics to preach anti-Western screeds in the mosques and madrassahs. Sept. 11 and widespread support of the Palestinian cause may have been sufficient to bring that jig to an end. A U.S. invasion of Iraq is not something the Saudis want to have to deal with anytime soon, given that at a minimum Washington would again need the state-of-the-art Prince Sultan air base south of Riyadh to help run the air war. In short, a collapse of the house of Saud in the current environment, even if unlikely, is not inconceivable, and what could come in its wake could easily be a government that wouldn't necessarily disown the sentiments of the kingdom's most infamous son: Osama bin Laden. Whatever you may think of the Saudis, they have been a reliable supplier of reasonably priced crude oil for a long time, and for every American Administration since F.D.R. that has been the bottom line. The Bush Administration, though unquestionably attuned to oil interests, is hardly unique in not wanting trouble in Saudi Arabia.


But trouble it is likely to get. The Saudis, like the Egyptians, don't feel particularly threatened by Saddam anymore, and they don't really believe they face a life-or-death threat from bin Laden-style terrorism (even if, on June 18, the Saudis announced that their security services had arrested 13 suspected al Qaeda members who had allegedly been planning attacks against various sites within the kingdom). What they do fear is a growing general discontent among their own populations, fueled by increasing economic problems, sympathy for the Palestinian cause, and the anti-American baggage that comes with it. All of which could be ramped up significantly by a war with Iraq if the regimes in Riyadh and Cairo are seen to be holding America's coat.


Saudi fragility is not itself a reason to leave Saddam alone, even with the possible consequences for the oil market that serious turmoil there would imply (a subject we will get to shortly). But skeptics of any forthcoming Iraq operation believe there is much more trouble to come should the U.S. move anytime soon. Maryland's Shibley Telhami, who organizes extensive public-opinion soundings in the Arab world, believes it is likely that a war with Iraq would result, at least in the short run, in an increase in terrorism throughout the Middle East, directed at any regime--Egypt, Jordan, the other Gulf monarchies--seen as supporting us, and inevitably bring the suicide-bomber phenomenon to U.S. shores.
That's precisely what Bush is trying to avoid. Duelfer, the ex-UNSCOM official and one of the most knowledgeable Americans about Iraq, supports removing Saddam but doesn't disagree with Telhami. "There is," he says glumly, "no shortage of kids in the region who seem to want to grow up to be cruise missiles." To the skeptics, an invasion now would only increase the arsenal.


We are, it's true, focusing on the downside here, if only because so little of it has been heard to date. Bear with us: There's a bit more. Many businesses may not be overly concerned right now with the prospective geopolitical fallout of the next war with Iraq, believing that the direct economic impact of any conflict could be contained, especially if the conflict is short and stays within Iraqi borders--a plausible scenario. The U.S. in 2000 exported only about $23 billion worth of goods to the Middle East (Israel excluded), compared with European exports to the region of $63.7 billion. But there are other numbers that should concentrate minds. Most obvious is the cost of another war--and its aftermath. Japan and Saudi Arabia won't be writing billion dollar checks this time around. A full-scale invasion, even one smaller than Desert Storm, will not be cheap, and it will come at a time when the federal budget is already sinking into deficits.


The effect of a war on consumer sentiment may not be negligible, either. In August 1990, when Saddam invaded Kuwait, the University of Michigan's consumer sentiment index stood at 76.4. A month later, when the U.S. response remained uncertain, it had dropped just four points. By October, however, when we began counting those prospective body bags, the index fell off a cliff, plunging to almost 30% below the level at which it stood in July. (By March 1991, after the U.S. rout was over, the index had jumped back up to 87.) The point is obvious. If, as seems certain, war planning picks up and details of various Pentagon plans leak to the press (and that's already started), consumers could yet react negatively, particularly if the planning is drawn out.


And drawn out it will be. Even the most fervent cheerleaders for U.S. military action--Iraqi exiles in groups like the Iraqi National Congress--concede that the Administration has so far been painfully slow in trying to figure out not only what kind of war it wants to wage but what it wants a post-Saddam Iraq to look like politically. "There's just a tremendous degree of ignorance as to what it will take to keep things together after a war ends," says Raad al Kadiri, manager of country-risk analysis for the Petroleum Finance Corp. in Washington, D.C. Getting up to speed will take time, and that means the uncertainty that hangs over the forthcoming fight with Saddam will not go away in six months as it did last time. The drop in consumer sentiment may not be as sharp--with Americans in effect discounting for swift, painless success once the battle is joined--but the uneasiness could last longer until it becomes a lot clearer just how it is going to go.


The mother of all economic nightmares revolves around oil. Iraq, under the U.N.'s oil-for-food program, has been exporting about two million barrels a day of crude (compared with about 3.5 million barrels before the Gulf war). Even if that is disrupted during a war, and even if Saddam takes Iraqi oil off the market for a while by somehow managing to torch a patch of his own country's capacity on his way out to spite whoever might succeed him, the Saudis, Kuwaitis, and other OPEC members could easily mitigate the effects as long as they were willing to do so.


The oil-driven disaster would probably come only if a wider war involving Israel prompts an Arab embargo, something angry populations might demand and quaking Gulf governments would accede to. Six months of oil at $50 a barrel would stick the U.S. economy with the equivalent of a huge tax increase. As Mark Zandi, chief economist at economy.com, points out, a mere $10 increase in the price of oil shaves a full percentage point off of GDP. Another oil shock may not be likely, but to dismiss it out of hand would not, as President Bush's father used to say, be prudent. For that and other reasons George W. Bush needs to do as his father did in 1991 and make sure the Israelis stay out of it when Saddam's remaining Scuds take flight. But in this environment, and with Ariel Sharon as Prime Minister, will they?


We don't mean to spoil your summer vacation with these doom-laden scenarios. There are, make no mistake, people who believe the end of Saddam Hussein will come with relative ease. They argue that once the U.S. makes it clear that it will buttress local forces like the Kurds in northern Iraq with our own contingent of troops--and that this time it really is for keeps--even his most loyal officers will know the game's over, and most won't even fight. Then, says Zaab Sethna of the Iraqi National Congress, "the Iraqi people will be kissing your GIs in the street."


Well, let's hope so. But don't bet on that either. For now, know at least that some sort of conflict is coming. There is no way the Bush Administration, given its rhetoric to date, can back down from a confrontation with Saddam. The 800-pound gorilla has begun to stir. It wouldn't be wise to take your eye off it.
 
Uh, like nobody else reads Time magazine?
 
Well, I for one don't have a Time subscription, and like these occasional posts by the Major. But that's just me.
 
ok, go get a subscription to both, like I do.
tongue.gif
 
I enjoyed the article. Save me the money of a subscription, save some trees, and just post it.
 
Major,

Thanks for posting up the article. I think it makes for a great discussion.

What should America do about Iraq? Should we invade Army style? Can we go in with special forces? Assassins?

I am not sure what the best way is. Perhaps some of you guys may have an idea of what a good action or policy would be to deal with Saddam.
 
I have never even been to the mid-east and certainly do not pretend to be an expert or have the answers to what seems to be a extremely complex problem. However, it seems that this article is the same as almost every other article on the subject I have read recently - it brings up a lot of interesting points while missing THE point.

THE point is what, specifically, is the vision for the future of the region?

Removing Saddam from power (right or wrong) is not a vision; it is a goal. It is a task, not a solution. A lot of people seem to be confused about that.

Maybe I am just not reading the right publications, but I have yet to see anybody put forth a clear plan for the future of Iraq and the rest of the region that would (a) be possible (b) be at least acceptable to - and ideally supported by - most of the other countries in the region (c) solve the problem(s)

I suspect this is why Bush Sr. stopped short of removing Saddam from power over a decade ago - nobody really knew what we do next.
 
The bottom line on Bush Sr.'s not "finishing the job" probably came down to stability in the region.
For a interesting read on the subject try the article in "Middle East Policy Journal" found here: http://www.mepc.org/journal/0010_sick.htm

------------------
Andrew Henderson
The NSX Model List Page

"We have long acknowledged that enthusiasm for things automotive is a sure
sign of emotional instability if not outright dementia"
- Brock Yates
 
Late this year, but there is always next year.

President Bush has asked all Americans to unite together in a common cause to root out terrorists hiding in our midst.

The Taliban cannot stand nudity and consider it a sin to see a naked woman who is not one's wife.

Therefore, on Thursday, July 4, our FOURTH OF JULY, at 2 pm EST,all American women who live in residential communities are asked
to appear in public completely naked for one hour to help weed out terrorists.

Circling your block for one hour is recommended for this anti-terrorist effort.

All men should position themselves in lawn chairs in front of their houses to prove that Americans believe it's OK to see other
women nude.

Also, since Taliban disapprove of alcohol, men should display a cold six-pack beside them as further proof of anti-Taliban
sentiment.

Send names and addresses of non-participants in this public display of female nudity and male beer drinking to CIA Headquarters,
Langley Virginia.

The United States of America appreciates your efforts to root out terrorists and applauds your efforts.

Please send this on to your fellow patriots to ensure 100% participation.


[This message has been edited by NSX4U2 (edited 08 July 2002).]
 
If you saw him on TV, I believe the person that ran naked @ Wimbelton(?) center court over the weekend was responding to the call.

As for Iraq, Saddam will be taken care of, and it won't be the way most of the so called experts (media) think. The only reason it wasn't done the first time was it wasn't part of the objective. No support from allies meant no go Bagdad ! In addition, the American public wasn't prepaired for such events. That all changed on 9-11. Ask Viper Driver whom is a member of this forum and F-16 pilot what type of logistical support can be given to a surgically contained ground attack from the air alone. The 87th Airborne can put several thousand men into a 2 mile radious after its been partially leveled by 5000 lb a piece ordinance and be out within 36 hrs. It won't be the half baked BS that happened in Somilia. What ever the means, we owe it to the people that have the job to do, support them. Personally, I'd like to be able to drill for more of our own oil here in the states and tell OPEC to take a hike, then ask the UN to get out of the way... Sorry, I had to vent.
 
Originally posted by Lud:
Then what?

History tells us from WWII helping a defeated gvnmt with a good dose of capitalism may be the best method w/o occupation of the country. Japan did receive its bonuses when it acted accordingly and Europe benifited as well, though not hostile toward the US for the most part untill the USSR drew a line in the sand. At that time in Japan, Anti-American opinion was on line with what we see from portions of the mid-east today, however they won't turn their respective nose at handouts from the US as long as all terrorist cells and weapons of mass destruction can be destroyed or kept in a box (by the CIA). We really don't know how many people in Iraq want Saddam gone other than the thousands of his own people that have and are still being murdered at his order. Don't think for a minute that Iran won't love Saddams removal, although it won't be publically stated, in addition to other neighboring countries though some say they are on good terms with Iraq. Trade & econimic gain is a powerful tool. They will be able to form gvnmt on terms, they just don't want a lifestyle shoved down their mouth, nor Christian ideals. As for stability, it isn't gonna happen, although the point of his removal isn't so much for the mid-east is it? Its for our country that is the target now because it makes the biggest impact in the eyes of the world, but you can sell it to other nations under the guidelines of security in which all can benefit. The unfortunate part of this is, we have to pay the bill not in $ alone, but in the lives on those that will be lost. As for a change in the world, I don't want to try and change it and no country can do it either, its just to complex. I want the US protected and would personally want Isreal protected as well, thats all.
 
Let's go and practice on Cuba.

I am a product of a Jewish education, I also have a Muslim girlfriend. As far back as grammar school, I remember my history teacher drilling into my head that F.D.R. had advanced knowledge of the attack on Pearl Harbor, but had to let it happen to give the country the resolve it needed to enter the war. I am also reminded on a daily basis of the large percentage of Jewish people in the US government, and how that effects the daily lives of the non-Jewish US population. One example that comes to mind would be immigration laws and quotas.

As I see it, big oil has teamed up with pro-Isreal due to common interests, and we are going to fight another country's war, again. I don't beleive we went over to Iraq a decade ago, because of Kuwait, but because of Isreal. Having spent a considerable amount of time living among assorted groups of arabs, I can only say that if ever a race of people didn't deserve their own country it is the people of Kuwait, IMO.

I also do not think that anyone is actually looking for Bin Laden. Several months ago, the Britsh Secret Service revealed that a plan was in place to let Hitler live in Palestine, had he been captured alive during that war, what has changed? Now, we say that we are prepared to eliminate legit heads of state, but in doing so we are making our citizens targets. US policy is now about as american as apfel kuchen.

There is a report*(more below) out today that says that the earth has another 50 years before it expires. Does anyone even care enough to even give up driving an SUV? Are we all partying on a sinking ship? Are we going to mug the other passangers of their riches, as we sink? What kind of people pay hundreds of millions to someone to catch and throw a baseball, but let our schools go without money for books? Do we deserve to set the standards of conduct for other nations?

What I see happening is best put in human terms. The US is married to Isreal, but has a cash for sex relationship with the oil producing countries. If the mistress and wife didn't already have a former fued going, the relationship would be very difficult enough to sustain, long term. Trouble is that the mistress knows what the wife got for her birthday, and the wife knows how much we tip the mistress. But somehow we are being led to believe that the three of us can have a good relationship, not in a threesome in bed, but by playing and stroking each other until everyone gets what they want. Ha!

The US government says that we are not "one nation, under God", but the last time I bought porn and booze, I paid with green "In God We Trust" dollars. The words were only inserted during the cold war fifties to make our fight against the evil commies seem more justified. If the government were a person, how would you judge this behavior? Would you trust he/she with your life? My life isn't even worth the price of a smallpox vaccaine to the US government, it seems. Who does the accounting in the US?

Growing up, I remember stories about the USSR. The communist government having secret police forces that spy on its own people. Now, americans are perfectly accepting if the Police hassle you and confiscate your film for taking pictures of government sites. Funny, just before September 11th, we were debating about raiding the social security fund just to make ends meet. Now, we are telling the government to write blank checks with the money, all in the name of the war on terrorism against one single man. I can only guess that everyone is betting that we won't be around in another 50 years.


*From FOX News:
WASHINGTON - The planet is set to expire in the year 2050 due to the over-consumption of natural resources, with the United States being the worst offender, according to a report expected to be released Tuesday.
The World Wildlife Fund is keeping a tight grip on its "Living Planet" study, but the U.K.'s Guardian Unlimited Observer Monday said the report warns that the human race will no longer be able to sustain itself on this planet in 50 years.
"In a damning condemnation of Western society's high consumptive levels, [the report] adds that the extra planets [the equivalent size of Earth] will be required by the year 2050 as existing resources are exhausted," the Observer wrote.
Kyla Evans, a spokeswoman for the WFF in Sweden, said the general theme of the British article is accurate, adding that the report is meant to set off alarm bells against rapid resource depletion. But neither she nor members of the Washington, D.C.-based staff would comment further on the Earth's expected expiration date.
"We're continuing to look at the depletion of world resources," Evans said. "In the report, we have figures for most of the countries in the world, how much they are using and what it means to each person."
 
For a stoner, that was an awfully well put analysis. Good job dude! This world is going to hell. Maybe ill move to Switzerland where I can snowboard all day, while waiting for the rest of the world to melt.
 
Buy American, buy Honda!

Torrance, CA 07/09/2002 -- More than two decades ago, Honda set the course for others to follow with its decision to meet the needs of American customers with products built in North America using both domestic and globally-sourced parts and materials.

The company's commitment and investment has expanded as demand for Honda and Acura products continues to grow. Reflecting Honda's long-standing business philosophy to build products in the markets in which they are sold.

2001 North American Automobile Production: 1,089,476 units

New Total North American Capital Investment: More than $7.0 billion

Quick Facts:

Honda opened the doors of its first U.S. manufacturing facility in Ohio more than 20 years ago - with the assembly of motorcycles in 1979. U.S. auto production began in 1982.

American Honda was the first Japanese automaker to export its U.S.-built cars to overseas markets.

More than 77 percent of Honda and Acura automobiles sold in America in 2001 were produced in North America.

A number of Honda and Acura models are manufactured exclusively in North America, including the Honda Accord Coupe, Civic Coupe, Civic GX (natural gas vehicle), Pilot sport utility vehicle and Odyssey minivan and Acura TL sedan, CL Coupe and MDX sport utility vehicle.

Honda has exported more than 600,000 North American-made cars since 1987.

Honda Manufacturing of Alabama is the first Honda auto production facility anywhere in the world to assemble vehicles and engines under one roof.

Honda of Canada Manufacturing flexibly produces three light truck models on one line (Odyssey, Pilot and Acura MDX).

Through Honda's flexible New Manufacturing System, Honda achieves a new level of production flexibility by being able to quickly and efficiently adjust production to meet customer demand.
 
I refuse to take seriously the WWF. It's fixed.
smile.gif


Edit: Thanks Stoner.

[This message has been edited by Tony Montoya (edited 11 July 2002).]
 
DEVELOPING ON DRUDGE:
Iraqis 'moving stuff' at germ plant... http://www.washtimes.com/national/20020814-70344777.htm

----------------------------------------------------
US Moving Helicopters, Arms to Red Sea http://jang.com.pk/thenews/aug2002-...main/main11.htm
----------------------------------------------------------

A news story about the US Siezing Arab airports if they need them:

BEIRUT (Xinhua) - Lebanon received a report from diplomatic sources saying that the United States would seize by force several airports in Arab states when it launches a war against Iraq, the An Nahar newspaper reported on Monday.

The report said that US President George W. Bush would unleash the military offensive in January 2003 as he has to wait the outcome of the midterm elections of the Congress in November. "Bush prefers to have Arab support for his war to remove Iraqi president Saddam Hussein and the US forces would have facilities in several neighboring Arab airports,'' the report said.

"At any rate," it stressed, "once zero hour comes, Bush will give the orders to use Arab airports by force for the military operation against Iraq if the need arises.'' Bush argued that without the US interference, the Arab countries, the Arab League and the UN Security Council would not have been able to oust the invading Iraqi troops from Kuwait in the 1991 Gulf War.

Meanwhile, the report revealed that the Bush administration has allowed Israel to strike back in the upcoming confrontation against Iraq if the Arab country fires Scud missiles at Israel like it did in 1991.

The report suggested that the Arab world should take the US war preparations against Iraq "very seriously'' and recommended a diplomatic offensive by Lebanon to consolidate Pan-Arab camp.

----------------------------------------------------
Numerous Intelligence Sources (Debka sucks btw) that state CIA and Special Forces on the Ground in N. Iraq, building forward airbases and training Kurdish Rebels: http://www.debka.com/
-------------------------------------------------------

Iraq and U.S. military strength in the Persian Gulf, according to defense officials and experts at Jane's, Periscope and the Center for Strategic and International Studies:

Iraq

Troop strength:

_Army has between 350,000 and 400,000 troops.

_Six Republican Guard divisions, 17 regular army divisions.

Weapons:

_2,200 main battle tanks, including 500 T-72s.

_1,000 armored reconnaissance vehicles, such as the BDRM-2.

_800 light tanks/infantry fighting vehicles, such as the BMP-2.

_2,000 armored personnel carriers, such as the BTR-60.

_200 self-propelled artillery guns, 1,500 towed artillery guns.

Aircraft:

_200-300 interceptors and attack aircraft, including the MiG-21, MiG-23, Mirage F1, Su-22.

_100 combat helicopters, including Mi-24 Hind.

Air defenses:

_400 surface-to-air missile launchers, including the SA-2, SA-3, SA-6.

_1,000 man-portable surface-to-air missiles, including the SA-7.

_6,000 anti-aircraft guns.

Missiles:

_Short-range (less than 90 miles) surface-to-surface missiles.

_Between 2 and 20 Scud launchers and missiles.

__

U.S. forces in the region

_5th Fleet, based at Bahrain, normally includes one aircraft carrier and several cruisers, destroyers and submarines capable of launching cruise missiles.

_Air Force fighters stationed at bases in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Turkey, possibly Qatar.

_Army equipment in Qatar, elsewhere.

_Several thousand troops in Jordan.

_Patriot missile units in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait.
--------------------------------------------------------

It's going to get interesting in the coming months... really interesting....
 
An Article on E-bombs, which basically harms nobody but shuts down electrical devices nearby... They may be used in Iraq:


Weapons designed to attack electronic systems and not people could see their first combat use in any military attack on Iraq.

It is widely believed that the US is planning for an attack that could overthrow Iraq's leader, Saddam Hussein, who it believes is developing weapons of mass destruction. The Iraqi president responded publicly for the first time on Thursday, exhorting Iraqis to be prepared "with all the force you can to face your enemies".

US intelligence reports indicate that key elements of the Iraqi war machine are located in heavily-fortified underground facilities or beneath civilian buildings such as hospitals. This means the role of non-lethal and precision weapons would be a critical factor in any conflict.

High Power Microwave (HPM) devices are designed to destroy electronic equipment in command, control, communications and computer targets and are available to the US military. They produce an electromagnetic field of such intensity that their effect can be far more devastating than a lighting strike.

Pumped flux

The effect exploited by HPM weapons was accidentally demonstrated in the 1950s when street lights in Hawaii were knocked out by the electromagnetic pulse produced by high altitude nuclear tests.

One unclassified approach to producing the required pulse is a device called an Explosive Pumped Flux Generator. In this a charged bank of capacitors energises a coil wrapped around a copper tube, which itself contains high explosives.

On detonation, the explosives expand the tube from the back and moves rapidly forward, forcing the tube to make progressive contact with the coil and causing a short circuit. This has the effect of crushing the magnetic field at the same time as reducing the coil's inductance.

The resultant spike lasts tens to hundreds of microseconds and can produce peak currents of tens of millions of Amps and peak energies of tens of millions of Joules. By comparison, a typical lighting strike produces around 30,000 Amps.

Single use

HPM weapons would be single-use and could be delivered on almost any a cruise missile or unmanned aircraft. Future devices are likely to be re-usable.

Military planners will be particularly interested in claimed ability of HPM weapon's to penetrate bunkers buried deep underground by using service pipes, cables or ducts to transmit the spike. Insulating equipment from such spikes, for example by using Faraday cages, is believed to be very difficult and expensive.

Another weapon that targets electronic equipment has already seen use in the Balkan conflicts of the 1990s. Blackout bombs, such as the formerly classified BLU-114/B, releases a spider's web of fine carbon filaments into the air above electrical distribution infrastructures. This causes short circuits when the filaments touch the ground.

Tomahawk cruise missiles fitted with warheads operating on similar lines attacked the Iraqi power grid during the 1990 Gulf war.
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992654
 
Got your tin foil hats on?

Its been tested on citizens,
used to be alot of pictures of the burnt birds but having problems finding them.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hartsville, Tennessee, about 30 miles northeast of Nashville, where mysterious,
destructive power surge killed dozens of birds and damaged transmitter, phone lines
and computer equipment at country music radio station WJKM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.greatdreams.com/1090wjkm.htm


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) All the radio station's lines were knocked out.
2) Several power transformers were blown several blocks away from the studios (smoke seen billowing out of one)

3) All phone lines at the newspaper (The Hartsville Vidette), the local farm co-op and all other phones in this small radius were knocked out!

4) Radio station transmitter lost all MOSFETS and the output - tuning network.

5) All computers at WJKM lost motherboards, network cards etc.

6) ISDN was knocked out.

7) Most all the equipment Zephyr codec and EAS all knocked out.

THERE WAS NOT A CLOUD IN THE SKY!
This was not lightning!

In the back of the radio station were DEAD FRIED BIRDS! Their wings, tails and feet severely burned. Station secretary Jennifer and sales manager Steve found a small bird still alive hopping around with its wings and tail feathers burned off. Many of the birds were still alive but badly burned.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.dreaman.org/ufologist/ge...artsville1.html http://www.clydelewis.com/dis/freak/freak.html


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HARTSVILLE, TENN - Newly released documentary and eyewitness evidence now links an apparent July 6, 2001 electronic warfare attack on a radio station and weekly newspaper in Hartsville, Tennessee to a nearby unacknowledged secret access project (USAP). This secret project, eyewitnesses say, includes the U.S. Air Force as paymaster, U.S. government aircraft as transportation and security craft; military troops in black uniforms; and black unmarked triangular aircraft. The project may also include a secret electronic warfare unit capable of disabling nearby media outlets with destructive electromagnetic energy.

It has now known that an official U.S. Air Force cheque was used to pay for the clandestine installation of massive telephone switching equipment at a defunct Tennessee Valley Authority nuclear power plant about five miles from the target media outlets. The private contractor who installed the unusually large switching system at a former nuclear power plant that is still officially defunct reported this to the WJKM investigators on condition of anonymity.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.ecologynews.com/cuenews31.html


"In the counsels of Government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the Military Industrial Complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists, and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together."
- President Eisenhower - January 1961 Farewell TV address to the nation. http://disclosureproject.homesite.n...1/ramgen/ike.rm
 
Thanks for the new links Stoner. Interesting reading. I am not an expert on natural resources and consumption. I have confidence engineers and inventors will find a way to solve the natural resource problem. Nuclear power? Electric cars? I am not sure.

My question is this. When is America going to get mean? What will it take for us to take some serious action against these people? Are we going to wait until a terrorist sets off a dirty bomb at the Super Bowl? Are we going to have to see peoples flesh being melted off on Super Bowl Sunday? Are we going to allow Saddam to set off a nuclear weapon or some other nasty device?

As you can see, I am just asking some questions. You folks can respond accordingly.

[This message has been edited by Edwardo (edited 14 August 2002).]
 
The government just came up with a plan to use the military to "quarentine" the population in the event of a chemical or radioactive event. I always had the thought that they would close all the bridges and tunnels here in NYC, and force us to absorb whatever it is, but now my plans to escape by boat are out the window. I'll post pics of the melting flesh, when and if.
 
Major you post some great stuff, keep it up. I look forward to your posts as I think much about the type of topics you post quite often. As far as a depletion of recourses, this can and has been dealt with. If one thinks back only 30 years ago most milk came in a glass bottle. I read somewhere that if only that had continued without recycling it would have depleted the raw materials to produce glass to zilch by now. Looking back 50 years ago, the average tire had a life span of 12k miles or so, some more. That tire life span has increased greatly since. Science will continue to produce items that will last longer. It is greed that prolongs the release of these items. A month or so back Forbes had and article about STAIN PROOF clothes, not stain resistant. The major concern was that sales for new cloths would slow. So it seems to always comes down to greed.
 
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