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Insurance at NSXPO

Joined
24 May 2002
Messages
2,451
Location
Dana Point, CA USA
Apparently, my insurance company will not cover my car if I am involved in an accident on a track. Not even if the event is a "driving school where no racing occurs".

Will track insurance be available for purchase at NSXPO?

Does anyone have any ideas on this one since I'm not willing to take the car on the track events without insurance and changing insurance companies isn't really an option (house, umbrella, and cars all with the same insurance company).

Thanks.
 
Different insurance companies have different policies towards track events. And what they tell you if you ask is not necessarily what will actually happen in case of an incident. (That can cut both ways, too.) There's an expression that may be applicable: "It's easier to gain forgiveness than permission." Your best guide to what is and isn't covered is your written policy.

That being said, driving on a racetrack does involve some risk, even though the event organizers do everything possible to maximize the safety of the event. If you are not comfortable with accepting that risk, you have another option at this year's NSXPO, which is to participate in the autocross, rather than the on-track drivers school. The insurance issue might still apply to the autocross, but the speeds and risks in an autocross are lower than those on a road course.
 
RSO 34 said:
No insurance is available through the NSXCA for NSXPO for track events.
bummer.
 
nsxtasy said:
Different insurance companies have different policies towards track events. And what they tell you if you ask is not necessarily what will actually happen in case of an incident. (That can cut both ways, too.) There's an expression that may be applicable: "It's easier to gain forgiveness than permission." Your best guide to what is and isn't covered is your written policy.

That being said, driving on a racetrack does involve some risk, even though the event organizers do everything possible to maximize the safety of the event. If you are not comfortable with accepting that risk, you have another option at this year's NSXPO, which is to participate in the autocross, rather than the on-track drivers school. The insurance issue might still apply to the autocross, but the speeds and risks in an autocross are lower than those on a road course.

Unfortunately, my insurance dilemna still applies for an autocross as well.

I'm bummed. I'm just not willing to accept the admitedly minor risk of a problem occuring while I'm on the track.

Crap.
 
Keep an open mind.This comes up every xpo,do a search about it.I have spoken to a few novice drivers who took the chance after sitting on the fence and loved it.If it helps any the track this year is short with relatively lower speeds,and was designed as a teaching track,meaning it is purposely technical and slower providing all types of turns.Be that as it may if you do damage to the car be prepared to pay for it out of pocket.As a point of reference every badly shunted car I have seen at a hpde(and gotten follow up) where the driver was insured, with a good record, was covered once.
 
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Da Hapa said:
Unfortunately, my insurance dilemna still applies for an autocross as well.

I'm bummed. I'm just not willing to accept the admitedly minor risk of a problem occuring while I'm on the track.

Crap.

Plenty of things to do during NSXPO, just enjoy the rest of the activities with the fellow NSX owners and kick back and relax instead of being worried about your car :cool: I'm sure that you will still enjoy talking shop and sharing stories, checking out the other cars, etc, etc, at NSXPO05.
 
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Da Hapa - I would think this year's NSXPO is the perfect opportunity for you to track your car if you are interested in doing so at all. As docjohn mentioned this track is relatively short and doesn't have many real high speed turns, therefore (IMO) is somewhat less risky for those concerned with damage to their car. Of course accidents can happen anywhere, but what better opportunity to get comfortable with your car than on this course before possibly progressing to a higher speed track.

While this Firebird course layout doesn't carry the prestige of a Road America, Watkins Glen or Infineon, it is very much a fun course and allows every driver an opportunity to work on their driving skills. Having been on the exact layout that will be run this year, I would highly encourage everyone interested in tracking to participate. Even the most skilled drivers can always benefit from working on the basics (eg. - lines, threshold braking, etc.) from time to time and this year provides that opportunity without as much "pressure" to really push your limits.

I would highly encourage everyone to participate in the track event/autocross this year because it will be a lot of fun. Between the Social and Track days, this year's NSXPO promises to be one to remember.
 
Understudy said:
Da Hapa - I would think this year's NSXPO is the perfect opportunity for you to track your car if you are interested in doing so at all. As docjohn mentioned this track is relatively short and doesn't have many real high speed turns, therefore (IMO) is somewhat less risky for those concerned with damage to their car. Of course accidents can happen anywhere, but what better opportunity to get comfortable with your car than on this course before possibly progressing to a higher speed track.

While this Firebird course layout doesn't carry the prestige of a Road America, Watkins Glen or Infineon, it is very much a fun course and allows every driver an opportunity to work on their driving skills. Having been on the exact layout that will be run this year, I would highly encourage everyone interested in tracking to participate. Even the most skilled drivers can always benefit from working on the basics (eg. - lines, threshold braking, etc.) from time to time and this year provides that opportunity without as much "pressure" to really push your limits.

I would highly encourage everyone to participate in the track event/autocross this year because it will be a lot of fun. Between the Social and Track days, this year's NSXPO promises to be one to remember.

Normally, I would agree with you and that's really the reason why I'm so bummed out about this. I've done some autocross driving in previous cars (Honda S2000) but I've never had the chance to get any "real" high performance driver's ed.

But, and this is just my own personal decision, in as much as I realize the risk of something happening in a well organized event with mature adults is slim... I'm a conservative guy (hell... I'm a banker) and I can't risk wrapping my $50K asset around a concrete wall without insurance. I couldn't look my wife in the eyes and more importantly... I probably would be wound up so tight that I wouldn't enjoy the driving.

I think I'm still going to go to NSXPO, however. My wife can't make it but I have family in Scottsdale/Cave Creek and this is a great opportunity to meet some fellow NSXers and socialize.

But I'm pretty bummed.
 
Understudy said:
I would think this year's NSXPO is the perfect opportunity for you to track your car if you are interested in doing so at all. As docjohn mentioned this track is relatively short and doesn't have many real high speed turns, therefore (IMO) is somewhat less risky for those concerned with damage to their car. Of course accidents can happen anywhere, but what better opportunity to get comfortable with your car than on this course before possibly progressing to a higher speed track.
The other thing to realize about the NSXPO track event is that all the students, and most of the instructors, will be driving NSXs. You will get instruction from people who understand the car and how it handles (which is all too rare in events held by other clubs/groups, unfortunately). And there's no greater thrill than being out on the track with a bunch of other folks driving the same car as you.

I'm not trying to talk you into it if you are not comfortable with the risk factor. If you don't want to sign up, don't. I'm just saying that the NSXPO track event has lots of things that make it fun, regardless of the particular track that it's run on in any given year.
 
nsxtasy said:
You will get instruction from people who understand the car and how it handles (which is all too rare in events held by other clubs/groups, unfortunately).

I don't agree with that particular statement, there are plenty of NSX owners from SoCal that track their cars, and I can think of more than a handful of them that are very competent instructors who instruct at local clubs/groups in CA.

BTW: You don't have to be a NSX owner to understand the NSX either, as I recall for NSXPO03, a lot of the instructors were PCA/POC/BMWCCA instructors, as such they don't drive/own NSX's. Unless you are trying to extract 100% of the car potential any instructor will be able to go through the basics of what to do with *any* car at the track as long as they are good instructors with good communication skills, experience and good fundamental understanding of vehicle dynamics.

And from what I know there *are* some organizations that *do* provide insurance as part of their track events, as such they are *ridiculously* strict with rules/instruction so perhaps it might be worthwhile for DaHapa to start at one of those events instead, or he can just take a regular racing school where he gets to use one of their cars instead.

Another thing to keep in mind, if a driver is so "focused" on not damaging their car they might be more prone to making mistakes and trying to overcorrect for simple situations that could have been handled differently by simply going off. As such I believe that it can lead to some possible issues for the student as well.

And finally we don't talk enough about the fact that there is *always* the chance for damage of cars at track events. Regardless of how careful everyone is, there's always a possiblity for incidents to happen.

In the past 2 years 3 cars have collected and have been complete writeoffs at NSXPO's.

There are plenty of things to do during NSXPO so not doing the track event portion might be ok if the owner is not comfortable, and even getting ride-alongs might be a good place for someone who is considering tracking their NSX to start.

Just my 2 cents.

Ken
 
docjohn said:
Keep an open mind.This comes up every xpo,do a search about it.I have spoken to a few novice drivers who took the chance after sitting on the fence and loved it.If it helps any the track this year is short with relatively lower speeds,and was designed as a teaching track,meaning it is purposely technical and slower providing all types of turns.Be that as it may if you do damage to the car be prepared to pay for it out of pocket.As a point of reference every badly shunted car I have seen at a hpde(and gotten follow up) where the driver was insured, with a good record, was covered once.

Unless they changed the track that was going to be used, the Firebird main track is *not* a track that is used exclusively for instructing. Bondurant uses the other 2 tracks.

The section from the staging area for the dragstrip is slippery because the dragsters do burnouts in that area, there are also some metal plates around that area too, not too much fun going over the different surfaces and can be a bit unsettling for people who are not used to it or expecting it.

Earlier in the year with the new asphalt coating the back section was very slippery as well when running with street tires, hopefully that is better since it will be about 8 months from the time that the new coat went on the asphalt.

Anyways, I'm just being honest and just giving my 2 cents after driving on the main Firebird roadcourse earlier in the year.
 
Since we are still on topic, it's not only your car that you need to worry about, in the event of some car to car contact the driver who caused the incident might be held liable for damages on the other car/cars as well. (Not really sure how that is handled for NSXPO events though)

Driving at the track requires the driver to take full responsability for their actions, regardless of how good an instructor might be they can only do so much, they can't prevent incidents from happening if the driver makes errors in judgement.

Again just my 2 cents for folks who might not be familiar with track events in general.
 
There's an old adage in the track day world that says that you don't take anything on the track that you're not willing to wad up in a ball and (hopefully) walk away from. The risk is relatively low, but you're still dealing with high speeds, and trying to get the car to it's limit, and you're surrounded by 50 other people of the same mindset. Shit happens, and I wouldn't track a car I wasn't prepared to lose.
 
2slow2speed said:
I don't agree with that particular statement, there are plenty of NSX owners from SoCal that track their cars, and I can think of more than a handful of them that are very competent instructors who instruct at local clubs/groups in CA.
That may be. My experience is that, even though there are some instructors who drive NSXs on the track, many (even most) groups don't go out of their way to assign NSX-driving students to NSX-driving instructors. At events run by other clubs/groups, I've been surprised to find myself instructing students driving other cars, and students driving NSXs assigned to instructors driving other cars. I'm not saying that will always be the case, but with any other group, the chances of being assigned an instructor who has never driven an NSX are pretty high.

2slow2speed said:
BTW: You don't have to be a NSX owner to understand the NSX either, as I recall for NSXPO03, a lot of the instructors were PCA/POC/BMWCCA instructors, as such they don't drive/own NSX's.
And all of those instructors were given background about the NSX, and how to drive it, and what it can do, and how to instruct students driving it, in the instructors meeting at the start of the event. Which doesn't happen in schools held by other groups.

2slow2speed said:
And from what I know there *are* some organizations that *do* provide insurance as part of their track events, as such they are *ridiculously* strict with rules/instruction so perhaps it might be worthwhile for DaHapa to start at one of those events instead, or he can just take a regular racing school where he gets to use one of their cars instead.
Yes, these are good alternatives for those who have such concerns.

2slow2speed said:
And finally we don't talk enough about the fact that there is *always* the chance for damage of cars at track events. Regardless of how careful everyone is, there's always a possiblity for incidents to happen.
That's true, and it's stated explicitly in the event brochure that everyone receives (and, hopefully, reads) before registering for the event.

2slow2speed said:
In the past 2 years 3 cars have collected and have been complete writeoffs at NSXPO's.
And in the previous three years, there were no such incidents. (In fact, in the previous three years, which included seven track days at four different tracks, there was only one VERY MINOR incident in which a bumper incurred slight damage, and the car continued to participate in the event.)

2slow2speed said:
There are plenty of things to do during NSXPO so not doing the track event portion might be ok if the owner is not comfortable, and even getting ride-alongs might be a good place for someone who is considering tracking their NSX to start.
Which is another good idea.
 
2slow,I could be wrong about the track but I did run it about 8yrs ago doing the Bond. school and I remember one of the instructers telling me that layout was specificly designed with teaching in mind,not racing for sure,too little room to pass safely.
 
docjohn said:
2slow,I could be wrong about the track but I did run it about 8yrs ago doing the Bond. school and I remember one of the instructers telling me that layout was specificly designed with teaching in mind,not racing for sure,too little room to pass safely.

John,

Check the following:

http://www.bondurant.com/pages/tracks.html

The main track that is used by Bondurant these days to teach students is the Bondurant Course, that particular track is actually quite technical because it requires the students to really fine tune their skills.

Just my 2 cents.

Ken

The Bondurant Course - A very challenging track that has several configurations to choose from. A combination of high-speed turns over blind hills provides plenty of excitement. Bob designed this course to require all of the car control skills students learn to be applied.

Firebird Course - A track used for professional road racing, this track combines a drag strip with a demanding road course. At just over a mile in length, this track is primarily used for Corporate Groups.
 
OK,

It seems that people are getting the wrong message, my advice to DaHapa was based on his particular set of circumstances/concerns.

Not being comfortable driving his NSX at the track because of insurance reasons, him being from SoCal where there are also plenty of other tracks and racing schools if he decided to pursue tracking in the future.

So for him the NSXPO track event might not be the *best* way to get into tracking.

Sometimes as folks who really enjoy the sport we tend to go a bit overboard trying to get other people to join us in participating in the "sport" that we love so much.

And sometimes we forget to point out all of the risks that are present, as people who "do" participate in the sport we are fully aware of them and make a conscious choice to participate. Folks who are not currently in the sport need all the information that they can get so that they can make an educated choice of wether or not to participate in the sport.

Compared to Infineon and Watkins Glen, Firebird is an easier course to learn how to drive the NSX at speed, but I don't want people to get the wrong impression that it *is* the safest track to learn how to drive the NSX at speed either.

And that's why I pointed out Streets of Willow and Buttonwillow in DaHapa's case, because those tracks are relatively safer due to the lack of some of the irregularities that I pointed out earlier.

Again just my 2 cents.

Ken
 
Ok so I think I'm understanding my confusion.My recolections of Bondourant are for the bondourant course with the loop :redface: So I have no experience with the firebird course :redface: From another thread it appears that we will not be using the loop portion therefor some big braking needs to be done before that sharp left hander,oh well.I agree that there are two sides to every issue and although I would love everyone to track there cars at xpo I also understand the risk ,and the next best thing is to catch a thrill ride with one of the instructers. :biggrin:
 
2slow2speed said:
OK,

(And sometimes we forget to point out all of the risks that are present, as people who "do" participate in the sport we are fully aware of them and make a conscious choice to participate. Folks who are not currently in the sport need all the information that they can get so that they can make an educated choice of wether or not to participate in the sport.)

There are risks just living day to day. There are fewer accidents on a racetrack than during daily highway driving. Da Hapa might learn better car control than his current ability by tracking his car. Do you suggest that he enroll in a school that teaches with front engine-rear wheel drive which is totally different that his NSX. Mid-engine cars behave differently from front and rear engine vehicles. I have over 136 track day without a ding.

(Compared to Infineon and Watkins Glen, Firebird is an easier course to learn how to drive the NSX at speed, but I don't want people to get the wrong impression that it *is* the safest track to learn how to drive the NSX at speed either.)

I learned HPDE on Watkins Glen and Infineon was a piece of cake. I had three student at Infineon not one drove over their heads, nor came close to wrecking their NSXs or running off the track. It's the responsiblility of the instructor to keep all parties safe.[/COLOR]

(And that's why I pointed out Streets of Willow and Buttonwillow in DaHapa's case, because those tracks are relatively safer due to the lack of some of the irregularities that I pointed out earlier.)

Didn't two people die at one of those tracks during "touring laps"? There are no safe tracks, just safe drivers.
 
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It seems that I've started a fire :(

Peter Mills said:
There are risks just living day to day. There are fewer accidents on a racetrack than during daily highway driving.
Yep that might be true, but if you are in the 1% or 0.1% who is involved in an incident at the track will that make any difference when it comes down to paying for the repair of your car because your insurance won't cover you?

Peter Mills said:
Da Hapa might learn better car control than his current ability by tracking his car. Do you suggest that he enroll in a school that teaches with front engine-rear wheel drive which is totally different that his NSX. Mid-engine cars behave differently from front and rear engine vehicles.

What about car control skills? All the general material that is taught at driver education courses offered by racing schools holds true regardless of wether or not the car is F/F, F/R, M/R or R/R, it's only when you are trying to extract more that the differences are made apparent.

I'm sure that you can learn as much about handling dynamics of a mid-engine car driving a Formula Dodge, Formula Ford or a Formula Mazda at a racing school. Learning how to get out of an understeer situation by backing off the gas a bit, learning how to get out of an oversteer situation by countersteering, being smooth on the braking, smooth on the throttle, smooth in on the steering input, being aware of your surroundings, looking ahead, heel and toe downshifting, trail braking, turn-in, apex, exit-point, how to go off properly, etc, you don't need to be driving a NSX to do so.

Once he is comfortable about being able to drive a "car" at speed and knows the basic fundamentals of vehicle dynamics he can apply those if he choses to do so with his NSX.

Peter Mills said:
I have over 136 track day without a ding.

And the fact that you have 136 track events without a ding, means that you are very good driver, that you have been running with organizations that have good drivers, never had any kind of mechanical failures on the track, never had anyone else tag you or collect you at the track, never pushed your car more than what you felt comfortable, never had anyone else blow an engine in front of you, lay down coolant, etc, etc. But that might not hold true for everyone else.

Peter Mills said:
I learned HPDE on Watkins Glen and Infineon was a piece of cake.
Good for you, again that's you, it might not apply to everyone else. It's nothing more than the fact that you have *more* track time and are familiar with the NSX as well as different track configurations, when compared to someone else.

Peter Mills said:
I had three student at Infineon not one drove over their heads, nor came close to wrecking their NSXs or running off the track. It's the responsiblility of the instructor to keep all parties safe.

So are you implying that the accidents that the incidents that happened at NSXPO03 and NSXPO04 were the responsibility of the instructors?

I don't believe that is either fair nor a prudent comment to make, ultimately it's the driver who is making the judgements while driving his or her car the instructor can only do so much. If you are willing to be held liable for errors made by your students then more power to you.

Peter Mills said:
Didn't two people die at one of those tracks during "touring laps"? There are no safe tracks, just safe drivers.

Yep, they died because the driver had no clue on what he was doing on the track when he was going over Lost Hills during a parade lap and he was driving a car without rollover protection, and he was not a HPDE participant who had proper instruction either.

I personally run with multiple clubs all over CA/NV/OR/WA/AZ and most of them do have good programs for HPDE's and there are plenty of good racing schools too unlike other parts of the US that might not be that much into motorsports or might lack the facilities, schools, etc.

*If* and *when* DaHappa choses to learn high performance driving there will be plenty of choices available for him to do so without having to force him to do something that he clearly is not comfortable doing at this time.

Anyways, I'm done writing about this topic. Clearly it seems that some people are not getting what I was trying to point across in the first place.

It's good to be a fan of the sport, but when people keep pushing and pushing others to do something that they are not comfortable, then you are clearly crossing the line. (I guess that line lies in different places for different people, and that's fine too.)

Ken
 
But clearly Da Hapa has some reading to do!
 
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