Is there any valid excuse for failure to yield a stop sign?

[comquat1]

I just got pulled over tonight for failing to fully stop at a stop sign, I did check for traffic, just didn't fully stop. Not realizing a cop was coming to the intersection from my right I proceded to redline my jetta and hit about 70 before I saw the lights come on. The officer approached and asked if I realized was I was pulled over for, stupidly I said, "I guess I was scooting along". To which he replied that I flew through that stop sign back there. In my head I began to swear... for more or less admitting to something that I should have known he couldn't have clocked me for. Anyways, long story short, I plead for mercy, he walks off, comes back and says he doesn't give mercy to those rolling through stop signs, but that he'll be nice on the speeding and issue me a warning.

So here's my dilema, I've currently got 4 points on my license, one from a no turn on red and the other from speeding (less than 10 over). My no turn on red points (2 of them) will be off of my record on 4/3/05, so I'll be down to 2 points technically. I'm debating whether it's even worth going before the magistrate and plead for mercy because when I went in for my speeding last time, I asked if I could take a school in return for no points, I was more or less rudely shot down that they have been instructed by higher ups that no such thing can be done in Michigan anymore.

In Michigan, 7 points gets you in bigger trouble, and if I read michigan.gov right, I'm gonna get slapped with 3 pts for the rolling through a stop sign ticket. So, if possible, I'd really like to push back this guilty plea (I've got 3-12 days to do this) until after April 3 so that I don't have all these points on for a matter of a few days and have the state hit me with more issues. The only way to do that I believe is to go before the magistrate, but I'd like a decent excuse so that I might have a fighting chance and not just told to go screw myself like last time.

Anyone got some help they can give me on this? I swear, what pisses me off the most is both of the worthless (read "not speeding" ) tickets happened when I was driving my jetta. I can't believe I'm getting in more trouble in my jetta than in my NSX or Evo!

 

[comquat1]

I just looked a bit more and found out that my "no turn on red" ticket can't count towards my 7 points as the infraction must have happened after October 2004. So now the real question is, do I have any chance going before the magistrate? It will most likely be the same guy from the last time I was there, he was a prick then, can't believe he's changed in a year and a half....

 

[DocL]

...So now the real question is, do I have any chance going before the magistrate? It will most likely be the same guy from the last time I was there, he was a prick then, can't believe he's changed in a year and a half....

Obviously the best way to beat this guy is to aviod him. Opps...you already got the ticket.

Take your punishment like a man. Afterall, it's not like you're going to be on death row. :biggrin:

 

[steveny]

You broke the old rule...No cop. no stop. When there is a cop you must stop.

 

[comquat1]

I figured I was screwed, there really isn't a valid excuse for slowly rolling through a stop sign, I was just hoping there would be something I could accuse the officer of not taking into consideration (i.e. nighttime, distance from incident, etc.).
:frown:

 

[BigBull]

I would look to an attorney for advice here. There may be real consequences besides the points issue here - such as insurance. If you retain a lawyer to handle the ticket for you, he will plead you down to a non-moving violation for about double the fine plus court costs. (And don't forget his fee.) Yeah - it sucks. But it is cheaper to fix it than deal with increased insurance premiums for three years. It is cheaper in the long run. As much as I hate to line the pockets of lawyers, this has proven to be a valuable tool. The system allows it - take advantage of it. Best of luck.

 

[comquat1]

I would look to an attorney for advice here. There may be real consequences besides the points issue here - such as insurance. If you retain a lawyer to handle the ticket for you, he will plead you down to a non-moving violation for about double the fine plus court costs. (And don't forget his fee.) Yeah - it sucks. But it is cheaper to fix it than deal with increased insurance premiums for three years. It is cheaper in the long run. As much as I hate to line the pockets of lawyers, this has proven to be a valuable tool. The system allows it - take advantage of it. Best of luck.

Here's the thing though, the hearing before the magistrate is with no lawyers.

Also, I currently have two tickets on my record (4 points) and my insurance has not gone up ever. I've even added a car and they never checked. I still have accident/violation free discount. If my insurance knows, I think they're thinking if they raise my rate then I'll shop them. Currently I can't change providers because the new provider has to take into consideration that I have points, however with my current provider, they know 2 things, one, I havn't had a claim filed as a result of these points and two, they can essentially "lock me up" for another two years and won't risk losing a customer.

 

[steveny]

I figured I was screwed, there really isn't a valid excuse for slowly rolling through a stop sign, I was just hoping there would be something I could accuse the officer of not taking into consideration (i.e. nighttime, distance from incident, etc.).
:frown:

Good point. I was stopped and issued a ticket for running a stop sign many years ago. I went back to the intersection and took pictures of the intersection from the police officers angle of the intersection with my car parked where it should have been if I came to a complete stop at the stop sign I was accused of running. From his angle the pictures showed it would have been near impossible for him to see if I had come to a complete stop or not. I took the picture to court and asked the judge where my car was in the picture. The Judge said he did not see my car. I then let him know that my car was in fact in that picture and asked how the officer could have possibly viewed me running the stop sign when he (the judge) could not even see my car from the officers view. Ticket dropped.

 

[comquat1]

Well I went back to the intersection tonight where I got a ticket around the same time at night to observe cars going through the intersection. I might have a valid excuse as I put my car where I remember seeing the headlights of the officer's car and noticed it was not super easy to view cars coming to a stop unless the pulled up far enough.

I then when and positioned my car roughly ten feet behind the stop sign and could not (out of my window) see the spot where I just was (where I remember the officer's lights being).

So after hearing this, do you think I might have a chance in court? I think I might have a valid argument that I could have stopped further back and the officer didn't have a proper vantage point because of his distance from the intersection and that it was nighttime. But will they end up using the "speeding" warning against me in court to uphold the ticket? That's my worry, also, I cannot for the life of me remember what I said to the cop after he said "you blew through that stop sign" - I vaguely remember saying something about starting in second gear (b/c I was rolling) but can't remember the context of it.

Also, can I legally request the report notes that the officer wrote detailing the stop? I dunno if this is a normal thing, but if I knew what notes he wrote to help him recall this incident in case it went to court it would certainly help me decide if I can mount a valid defense.

 

[Dave Hardy]

Dude - you ran a stop sign. Own up, take your lumps, and move on.

 

[DocL]

Well I went back to the intersection tonight... and positioned my car roughly ten feet behind the stop sign and could not (out of my window) see the spot where I just was (where I remember the officer's lights being).

Were you or were you not stopped ten feet behind the stop sign?

So after hearing this, do you think I might have a chance in court?

No! . You already admitted that you did not come to a complete stop.

I think I might have a valid argument that I could have stopped further back and the officer didn't have a proper vantage point because of his distance from the intersection and that it was nighttime..

How can you have a valid argument based on a lie. Someone here should go to the hearing and bring a copy of this thread.

 

[comquat1]

Aren't many defenses based on what could have been? I admit that I did not fully stop, I did however yield - not technically legal I know, but I am looking simply to cast doubt to whether or not the officer (from his vantage point) could have seen what I did clearly. If I can cast doubt then isn't it ok if I can get off of the charge?

 

[WOODY]

just stay below 6 points or in michigan they throw you in the high risk pool which means $3-4000 just for no fault liability insurance for one year. this won't cover your car at all

 

[ss_md]

OK, here's my perspective: 1. If you were traveling at a speed greater than 10 MPH through the intersection the cop knows you didn't stop. 2. Accelerating through a red light is an obvious give away that you weren't planning on stopping. You are guilty as cited. Now you have 3 choices: Get a lawyer, pay his/her fee waste your time and money, because you will most likely not win. Pay the fine and eat the points. Or plead to the judge 'if he allows you keep the points off your driving record' to allow you to donate the full amount of the fine to a NFP like MADD or BADD + court costs. I have heard this works but I have never know anyone that has tried it - so you're on your own.

Good luck and drive safe.

 

[comquat1]

OK, here's my perspective: 1. If you were traveling at a speed greater than 10 MPH through the intersection the cop knows you didn't stop. 2. Accelerating through a red light is an obvious give away that you weren't planning on stopping. You are guilty as cited. Now you have 3 choices: Get a lawyer, pay his/her fee waste your time and money, because you will most likely not win. Pay the fine and eat the points. Or plead to the judge 'if he allows you keep the points off your driving record' to allow you to donate the full amount of the fine to a NFP like MADD or BADD + court costs. I have heard this works but I have never know anyone that has tried it - so you're on your own.

Good luck and drive safe.

First off it wasn't a red light, it was a four way stop.

Secondly, I know that I was traveling under 10mph when I was at the stop sign. I'm thinking that the cop saw me slow down at the last minute and because i didn't stay in a stopped position for a two second count he was going to get me. I certainly had enough time as I was there to look right, look left, notice the car on my left and that I was there before him so therefore I could procede though the intersection before him.

On the other hand, what do we have here, a bunch of buford t. justice wannabes? I've never seen so many people not even want to try to come up with a defense before. Especially considering it was night time, and the cop was so far away from the intersection.... Maybe it is that cut and dry, but after going back there it sure doesn't seem like it.

 

[comquat1]

Take a look at this:

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/cis_ofis_autogd_eligibility_24042_7.pdf

For insurance purposes only, will it only look like I have 6 points on my license? Maybe my current offense is counted as a moving violation marked as 2 points?

 

[brahtw8]

Not legal advice, no atty-client relationship express or implied . . . :wink:

It is likely that it does not matter when you plead to the ticket. Laws vary from state to state and I am not licensed to practice in Michigan, which is why I am not giving you legal advice, just information. In general, the points are assessed as of the date of the violation, not the date of the conviction. I expect that is the law in Michigan, but I do not know that to be the case. If so, there is nothing to be gained by waiting.

As for an excuse for failing to yield at a stopsign, there is no excuse.

I don't mean that in a moral sense, but in a legal sense. Traffic laws are mala prohibita. It is wrong because it is prohibited, not because it is wrong in and of itself. (Which is not to suggest that failure to yield cannot be negligent, reckless or even criminal if it causes an accident, only that the act of failing to come to a stop in and of itself is not wrong in a moral sense.)

In other words, it does not matter if you did not intend to roll through the stop sign. Intent is not an element of the offense. If you were a trucker and were overloaded but did not know because the scale you used to check your weight was faulty, you would still be in violation of the law and could be convicted if a subsequent weigh-in showed you were over the limit. Same with running a stop sign.

You can fight the ticket, but if you want to avoid lying in court and perjuring yourself, you can't say that you came to a complete stop. You can challenge the officer's ability to see from the distance and lack of light. However, because this is a civil offense, not a criminal offense, if you go to trial you can and will be compelled to testify. The prosecutor will ask you what happened, and if you tell the truth you will be convicted. As an officer of the Court, I can only advise you to tell the truth. In all honesty, there is virtually no chance you will be charged with perjury (unless someone with a chip on their shoulder happens to find this thread, which is why you don't post this kind of thing, but I digress), but it is still perjury, which means something to me and to other people.

In any event, there is a middle ground, which is usually the best way to go. Do not pay the ticket and show up at your court date. If you see the judge before you can speak to the prosecutor, plead not guilty. When you see the prosecutor, find out if they will give you a break on the ticket and reduce or eliminate the points in exchange for a higher fine. If not, you can still plead guilty and avoid the trial.

 

[brahtw8]

On the other hand, what do we have here, a bunch of buford t. justice wannabes?

Not a wannabe, myself . . .

If you had rolled through a stop sign in a different location, you might be asking me to reduce your ticket.

I don't pretend to be a saint when it comes to traffic laws, nor do I enforce them as a self-righteous hypocrite. I give people reductions as a matter of course and I generally give them the best deal the Municipal Judge is willing to accept. In your case I would probably let you plead to a 0 point ticket for an increased fine. Traffic enforcement is largely a revenue generating mechanism and that reality can be used to your advantage, to a point.

 

[DocL]

...On the other hand, what do we have here, a bunch of buford t. justice wannabes? I've never seen so many people not even want to try to come up with a defense before. Especially considering it was night time, and the cop was so far away from the intersection.... Maybe it is that cut and dry, but after going back there it sure doesn't seem like it.

You keep incarcerating yourself with every post on this topic. How many people do you think really want to help you "come up with a defense"? You even admit to breaking the speed limit, unless it's posted at 70mph for a rural street. The speed limit down here is 70mph on some parts of the highway, but I've never seen it that high on a street. With that in mind, here's an excuse for you to try and use. Tell the magistrate that you were in the process of comming to a complete stop when you unintentionally sneezed. The sneezing caused you to unintentionally lift off the brake pedal for a split second which caused you to roll through the stop sign. Then, when you noticed the other car to your left and not knowing whether or not they were going to yeild the right of way, you went WOT to redline to 70mph to get yourself out of their way.

Good luck and don't forget to try and bribe the magistrate while you're there. I've heard that the pay isn't so good. In fact, my father volunteered as a magistrate in our local traffic court and the excuses he heard were incredible.

 

[comquat1]

Actually, if I want to challenge the ticket I get to go to an "informal hearing" which is without lawyers present. It's me (on the defense side), the officer (on the plaintiff side) and a magistrate. I guess all I am asking is if I go before the magistrate, would calling into question the distance the officer was from the intersection, the fact it was night time and that question of could he really see if I hadn't stopped earlier cause enough doubt to possibly get my case thrown out or guilty to a lessor offense?? I am not saying that I'm planning on lying during the informal hearing or anything (if typed that earlier that was not my intent), I am just wondering if I can cause enough doubt to the officer's testimony that I might have something here - just looking to poke holes in the case.

On another note, I hear you about intent. On my first ticket two years ago, I never saw the no turn on red, but got busted (during quota time at the end of the month) and couldn't even get a warning much less five seconds to explain. I honestly had no intent to break the law and turn on the red light, had I seen the sign, I would have sat there like a good law abiding citizen. But instead, I get pulled over by an officer looking to prove something. It's instances like this that I begin to lose all respect for law enforcement. If it smells like a revenue generating ticket it most likely is....

Since I'm beginning to look like one of the crazy loons that post here from time to time about their run in's with the law and I'm getting a tongue lashing from DocL for just looking for a legitimate excuse I will cease posting to this thread, just let it die.

 

[nsxtasy]

As for an excuse for failing to yield at a stopsign, there is no excuse.

I don't mean that in a moral sense, but in a legal sense.

Good explanation, Ryan.

As a practical matter, there are excuses that are likely to lead to the charge being dropped - but that doesn't mean you didn't do it. (I think that's what Ryan meant.) For example, if you were nine months pregnant, and had a baby later that evening, the charges would get dropped in 10 out of 10 cases.

When you see the prosecutor, find out if they will give you a break on the ticket and reduce or eliminate the points in exchange for a higher fine

...and/or attendance at a traffic safety school.

 

[hlweyl]

Being a traffic court veteran (in my younger years of course), I would not recommend trying to come up with a half-hearted excuse. The judges and prosecutors aren't stupid and usually have very accurate BS meters.

Just show up, dress nice, plead guilty in a polite manner and ask the judge for leniency (and traffic school as others have mentioned).

good luck

 

[DocL]

...Since I'm beginning to look like one of the crazy loons that post here from time to time about their run in's with the law and I'm getting a tongue lashing from DocL for just looking for a legitimate excuse I will cease posting to this thread, just let it die.

I'm not trying to come off as mean spirited. You brought up th entire situation and were honest with you did in the begining. But, right from the beginning you have also been trying to make up and/or look for any excuse possible to avoid the punishment that you deserve. This all sounds very similar to when children get caught with their hand in the cookie jar. Hey, we've all been there and I have not claimed to be the most law abiding driver on the road. But, the fact is that I haven't gotten a moving violation in five years, and I've never gotten one for anything besides speeding.

As of right now I will stop busting your chops. :biggrin:

 

[comquat1]

Being a traffic court veteran (in my younger years of course), I would not recommend trying to come up with a half-hearted excuse. The judges and prosecutors aren't stupid and usually have very accurate BS meters.

Just show up, dress nice, plead guilty in a polite manner and ask the judge for leniency (and traffic school as others have mentioned).

good luck

Last Post! There is not traffic school option in Michigan anymore. At my last ticket informal hearing the magistrate made it clear in no uncertain terms that he received a "two page single spaced" document from the higher ups in government that they are not to allow any defendents to take traffic school to avoid fines or points on their license. Maybe now you can all see why I am looking for any way out in this matter. Simply going there and saying "please forgive me, I'll take anything but points" will not cut it. I'm pretty much screwed if I don't have some kind of defense. There is no such thing as a plea down.

Maybe my contempt for law enforcement shouldn't be directed towards the police officers but towards the magistrates. Over here where I live, they think their S%$T don't stink. I've known too many friends who've had their ass handed to them for rediculous tickets because a magistrate was a prick.

DocL, you're probably right, magistrates may not make much, therefore their only outlet is to get off on the power trips they employ on a daily basis to those whom they technically serve.

 

[skinnydoc]

I feel your pain.

I have gotten citations for what I consider crappy calls...

1) Not slowing down at a blinking yellow light at 1AM when no one is around
2) Speeding tickets when I was going with the flow of traffic, but just happened to be the one pulled over...
Etc, etc...

Also, my reading of the subject tells me that several national studies have denmonstrated that speed limits do not reduce accidents and conversely speeding does not lead to accidents, it is more the relative speed to traffic that causes accidents., as well as drunk driving, poor attention spans, etc...

I have hired a lawyer who is taking two of my alleged speeding violations in speed-trap happy towns and is appealing them to a county court... the process takes many months to years as I understand it.. I wonder if you could do the same... if you have these magistrates who do not allow legal defense.. that seems very fishy to me - it sounds like something a lawyer should be able to appeal to a higher court.