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No '02 coupes

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I got confirmation from my dealer who checked with American Honda that there will be NO '02 coupes. Can't even special order one if you wanted to. I was trying to get a Type S ordered - or at least get an ideas as to whether they were going to bring something in along the lines of a special coupe. Oh well - that means I buy my '00 coupe at the end of the lease in April... (and maybe watch it go up in value...)
 
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Very interesting. I wonder what the rationale is -- certainly, the assemble line will still produce them for JDM consumption. Seems like it would be prettly simple to produce the occasional coupe for the US. Guess I'll go out to the garage and give my '01 Coupe a loving embrace
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Would certification even be needed for the '02, since it is essentially the same as the previous one other than cosmetic changes?
 
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Honda has lost the stuff that made it successful. After the death of Mr. Honda in '91, Honda continued with the same corporate philosophy for a couple of years, and then changed for the worse. This was most evident to me in motorbikes, where Honda started to lose races despite throwing a lot of money at it. Manufacturers have always made motorcycle frames as stiff as they could, but when Honda started to lose, they claimed that they had made the chassis too stiff, and introduced what they called "tuned flex". In other words, they went back to the old chassis. When that didn't work, they came out with a V-twin like the Italians, claiming that was the future. That didn't work, so they used their deep pockets and flooded the field with riders. That didn't work either.

Today, Honda's cars are not the cool radically styled cars that they were. They are conservatively styled and boring because Honda is afraid to mess with sucess. Sales are up, but the things that made Honda cars, like the CRX, popular are missing. Toyota has the edge on radical style. Hondas became Toyotas, and Toyotas became Hondas.

I think the NSX has suffered with this change of corporate think. They ruined the perfect chassis to build a T-model, and were content to leave the performance of the car alone most years. Something you just can't do in the supercar world, and now the NSX can barely compete with a an S2000. (Look at Honda's F1 results, they are just also rans.) The "new" NSX reminds me of the guy going thru mid-life crisis. He goes out, gets a diamond stud earing, a tattoo, and flash suit, and behold: "The new me!" Not exactly an improved version, in my opinion.

Here in NY, Chevy is running an ad campaign for the Camaro. At first glance, it looks like a 2002 NSX coupe (with the black top). Both cars have always been accused of looking similar, but I find it odd that as both enter their last years of production, the two-seat NSX looks like a copy of a two-seat Ferrari, while the four-seat Camaro looks like the four-seat Ferrari. In other words, it is just a cheap copy.

I don't know how much Honda spent on redesigning the NSX. I figure $20 million to retool, restock, new advertising, photo shoots, websites, manuals, car shows, etc. But what did they achieve? Nothing that an NSX owner couldn't do with after market parts for about $20K. I would have liked to see a NSX-RR. A real road racing version. No frills like a Porsche speedster. Start with a coupe and take out everything: the electric window lifts, a/c, clock, antennae, radio, electric seats, electric mirrors, engine cover, five layers of dash padding, etc., and offer it at a lower price.

Considering the massive drop in value that the late model NSXs have experienced ($200 a week), I don't expect tha 2002 "poser-mobile" NSX to sell even the 200 that are here. How much will a 2002 be worth in 2004? I understand that Honda must bow to demands of the market, but the new NSX is nothing more than a Powder Blue Tuxedo. They should have simply created a fixed headlight kit, a suspension upgrade kit, a ground effects kit, etc., and they could be selling them to owners of all years.

Now, about Honda's policy of NOT selling NSX-R parts to non-NSX-R owners, but Zanardi owners that can't get OEM floor mats that are sold out...

Oops, sorry, I'm on a rant. So what is my point? I listened to Honda bs me about how modern bikes had become too fast, too sharp, and a softer focus bike would be more enjoyable by most people. Suzuki and Yamaha started to sell alot more bikes, and according to the reviews, better bikes than Honda. There is room room for standing still or being conservative when marketing a "super" anything these days. Sorry for the long post, but it pains me to see a car that was designed with the likes of Senna, now being sold to the Victoria Principle crowd. They sould ALL be special order only, like any other car that only sells so few units.
 
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Oopsy, I meant no room for standing still;-)
 
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Gee Major, I sure wouldn't agree with most of what you wrote.

Today, Honda's cars are not the cool radically styled cars that they were.

Honda's cars have NEVER been radically styled. Ever, ever, ever. You can look at the changes introduced with each succeeding generation of the Civic, or the Accord, or the Prelude in the 1990's and even back into the late 1980's. While they made them attractive, they were never cars that made people sit up and take notice. Their ONLY car that generated plaudits for styling was the NSX.

Toyota has the edge on radical style.

Hardly. For every allegedly radical car model that Toyota introduces (like the TT-like Lexus SC), there are five different introductions of boring and/or copycat versions of the Camry, ES, Avalon, LS, Echo, GS, Corolla, RAV4, and IS.

Hondas became Toyotas, and Toyotas became Hondas.

Toyotas are the most American-like of all the Japanese cars, with cushy suspensions and lack of road feel. That's why their demographics skew so much older than Honda's.

I think the NSX has suffered with this change of corporate think. They ruined the perfect chassis to build a T-model

Sounds like (a) you've never driven the NSX-T, and (b) you think that YOUR desire - for a rigid coupe - is the ONLY thing that matters in the marketplace, that you don't care what most potential buyers might want in a car.

In fact, they made the NSX more rigid when they introduced the NSX-T. If anything, the chassis is better than before - as the handful of owners who opted for the later-model coupes will attest.

The "new" NSX reminds me of the guy going thru mid-life crisis. He goes out, gets a diamond stud earing, a tattoo, and flash suit, and behold: "The new me!" Not exactly an improved version, in my opinion.

Except that you are totally ignoring the fact that the 2002 NSX is merely a holdover version. It's NOT the "new" NSX. And Honda IS working on the new NSX. And it might be worth the wait. A fact that you conveniently ignore in your tirade.

I find it odd that as both enter their last years of production, the two-seat NSX looks like a copy of a two-seat Ferrari, while the four-seat Camaro looks like the four-seat Ferrari. In other words, it is just a cheap copy.

That's exactly what some people said in 1990, when the NSX was first introduced.

I don't know how much Honda spent on redesigning the NSX. I figure $20 million to retool, restock, new advertising, photo shoots, websites, manuals, car shows, etc. But what did they achieve? Nothing that an NSX owner couldn't do with after market parts for about $20K.

Again, you forget - this is NOT the "new" NSX. This is merely a slight cosmetic freshening.

I would have liked to see a NSX-RR. A real road racing version. No frills like a Porsche speedster. Start with a coupe and take out everything: the electric window lifts, a/c, clock, antennae, radio, electric seats, electric mirrors, engine cover, five layers of dash padding, etc., and offer it at a lower price.

Again, this is YOUR preference. However, it's doubtful that such a model would sell very many copies. Look at how much trouble Honda had in selling the mere 50 copies of the Zanardi NSX.

Any NSX owner has the ability to remove all of that equipment from his NSX and turn it into a no-frills track car. And some owners have done so. But unless there are hundreds and hundreds of such owners out there eager to do so, it doesn't make sense for them to sell a no-frills track car. And in the market for expensive sports cars, this is a given. Such manufacturers as Chevy (Corvette), Porsche, and Ferrari either don't sell such a de-contented model, or they sell it at an even higher price due to additional performance content.

YOU may want Honda to cater to your personal preference, but the fact is that there isn't a sufficient market for de-contented factory race cars. Even when Honda was selling a de-contented car in a lower price bracket (the Integra Type R), as the model progressed they found that they had to add standard equipment that they had deleted in earlier years, like air conditioning and rear wiper/washers, to get the cars to sell.

Considering the massive drop in value that the late model NSXs have experienced ($200 a week)

To some extent, this happens as cars reach a certain age. To some extent, this has happened as a result of external factors such as the current severe recession. Perhaps you blame THAT on Honda, too?

I don't expect tha 2002 "poser-mobile" NSX

Oh come now. How do you expect anyone to listen to you seriously when you use such ridiculous terms? Whether you prefer the 2002 NSX or the 1991-2001, you have to admit to all but the most expert observer, they look identical.

How much will a 2002 be worth in 2004?

Probably exactly what a 2000 NSX is worth now.

I understand that Honda must bow to demands of the market, but the new NSX is nothing more than a Powder Blue Tuxedo. They should have simply created a fixed headlight kit, a suspension upgrade kit, a ground effects kit, etc., and they could be selling them to owners of all years.

Honda is not in the business of selling aftermarket parts for its cars. And if they did, given the way many of the kits look, I can imagine how many folks would be talking about how Honda makes its cars uglier.

Zanardi owners that can't get OEM floor mats that are sold out...

Oops, sorry, I'm on a rant.


Yes, you are. You're also making a big deal about NSX owners who can get factory floor mats that are black with black stitching, and can get aftermarket floor mats that are black with red stitching, but may have trouble getting factory floor mats that are black with red stitching. I bet even YOU will admit that that's a little silly.

So what is my point?

As far as I can tell, your only point is that Honda should make exactly the car that YOU want to buy, at a price that YOU want to pay, and the rest of the world be damned.
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While I regret Honda's decision to discontinue availability of the NSX Coupe this year, it doesn't surprise me, considering the low level of interest in the coupe in recent years. And I agree with that decision from a marketing and financial perspective, while disagreeing with it from a product (and enthusiast) perspective. I suspect it was just too much trouble for them to handle the handful of coupe orders they received while it was available.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 10 February 2002).]
 
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Is the 97 NSX-T a better car than the 91 NSX?

In most ways, yes: more power, better gearing, and the many other improvements that were made over the years, too numerous to mention.

However, the '91 is more rigid (because it is a coupe) and may be more suitable for track usage for that reason, for those individuals for whom this is an important objective. And, of course, it's less expensive, so it may be considered a better value.
 
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great post nsxtasy. i could have added much to how i feel honda is still a very very credible company. but it was very well said.
good job
 
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Hondas just are not the tuner lovers preference the way the used to be. I guess if you say they have NEVER, ever, ever been radically styled, they can't ever have been cool either. One point for you, but that is one point away from Honda. Don't think the Toyota SC is rad? Race one and park next to one.

Personally, if I see an NSX-T service notice that calls for repeated hammering with blocks of wood to massage the body in order to keep it quiet, and work out any reported squeeks, I don't regard that as being a good chassis. I think that MY desire - for a rigid coupe - is the ONLY thing that matters when I walk into a dealer with $100,000 to spend, and if I can't get what I want, I'm forced to look elsewhere. I was told that a Zanardi went for a premium when it arrived. Problem is that in this day of the enlightened consumer, nobody pays more to get less.

Take out the leather electric seats and charge $3K less, the radio and assoicated stuff subtracts $1500. Cloth doors and dash $800. Coupes always cost less than targas, subtract $7K. Gimme a 3.0 instead of a 3.2 and let me save another $3K. Subtract $ for 16" wheels and ties, remove the engine cover, do whatever it takes to get the car to $72K. That is what I want! And if I order a hand-built car, what I expect! I don't expect to be told, no you can't have that, that is discontinued, only in Europe, JDM only. Headlight washer, I expect to be able to get one, or not get one, depending on what I wish. If Honda won't sell me a TypeR wing, I'll buy another wing from someone else, so maybe it is time that Honda changed and updated corporate policies.

And I think that is where the problem lies. Performance minded people are not buying the NSX. Not new, anyway. And if the "new" NSX buyer is supposed to be happy with 290 hp because he can get orange on orange, that is a pretty sad state of affairs. I know it isn't the "NEW" NSX, and you know, but Joe Street knows it as the "new" improved NSX.

The more I look and read about the prototype at the car show, the more I'm convinced that the next NSX will be a 2+2. I'm not happy about this, and I feel the need to vent in these forums about the way that my next car is shaping up. Likewise, if I don't like flashy chrome on the 2002, I have the right to say so. Why? Because I'm the guy who was looking for an excuse to spend the money. And the guy that buys two cars and spends twice what I do, gets twice the say in what the car should and shouldn't be. That is the capitalist way, however unpopular it may be, and unless you bought your car new, please don't tell me what I should expect when I wish to place my order.

I foresaw the shortage of Zanardi mats, I have mine. Last time I checked there were 51 sets in Ohio. I'm upset that Honda isn't more on top of things. I've had a couple of homologation special Honda bikes, so I know about how well the Big H is on top of things inventory wise when it comes to limited editions of fifty.

I just don't understand the demographic of the person that the NSX is being marketed to right now, as opposed to when the car first arrived on the scene. And you are correct: My only point is that Honda should make exactly the car that YOU want to buy, at a price that YOU want to pay, and the rest of the world be damned!
 
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I think that MY desire - for a rigid coupe - is the ONLY thing that matters when I walk into a dealer with $100,000 to spend

There are two types of individuals in this world. Person 'X' that purchases vehicles solely on the appeal and fashion statement and person 'Y' who purchases on the functionality (not gizmos like DSC, ESP, etc.) and R&D that went into the vehicle. Sadly, the majority of people tend to fall in the former category, therefore, that is where the money is at. With that said, do you really think person 'X' has any bloody clue what a stiff chassis is or what a chassis is for that matter? All they really care about is how many heads they can turn in said vehicle.

Take out the leather electric seats and charge $3K less, the radio and associated stuff subtracts $1500. Cloth doors and dash $800. Coupes always cost less than targas, subtract $7K. Gimme a 3.0 instead of a 3.2 and let me save another $3K. Subtract $ for 16" wheels and ties, remove the engine cover, do whatever it takes to get the car to $72K. That is what I want!

I absolutely agree with you and I too would order this myself for the reduction in weight. But the question that Honda Execs may ask is "How many people like this exist in the market?" Answer: Not many. This results in a very low option list (if not any at all). Case in point: The 01 GSR Integra and RSX Type-S. There are NO options. Only mudguards and wheel locks. That's it. But BMW is on the right track with the M3 CSL removing everything and adding carbon fiber body panels, YET there is no option for a six speed which is disappointing. SMG is nice but I prefer to run through the gears myself and expect this to be option but I don't think it will happen.

The more I look and read about the prototype at the car show, the more I'm convinced that the next NSX will be a 2+2. I'm not happy about this, and I feel the need to vent in these forums about the way that my next car is shaping up.

How about venting to Honda directly? YOU, the customer, has a high say in this not just the execs. at Honda. Most exotic performance cars (like the M3 CSL) will not be built unless there is high public demand for the car. Show your support and let Honda know what you want in the next NSX. Hopefully its not too late but it may be since there is a few years before its supposed release.



------------------
-Nader
01 Integra
 
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Hondas just are not the tuner lovers preference the way the used to be.

They're still the number one brand for tuners by far.

I guess if you say they have NEVER, ever, ever been radically styled, they can't ever have been cool either.

They have been considered, and are still considered, "cool" by the tuners and by those who created the entire import tuning craze. This in spite of their less than radical styling. Of course, some of the tuners change the styling to customize it to their taste.

Don't think the Toyota SC is rad? Race one and park next to one.

I can't do that. Most of the track events where I drive my NSX don't allow open-top cars like the SC to compete.

Besides, such a tremendously heavy car as the SC (3,840 pounds
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), offered only with an automatic transmission, is not likely to do all that well around a racetrack even if they did allow it out there.

Personally, if I see an NSX-T service notice that calls for repeated hammering with blocks of wood to massage the body in order to keep it quiet, and work out any reported squeeks, I don't regard that as being a good chassis.

Stop being ridiculous! You and I both know that there is no such service notice.

I was told that a Zanardi went for a premium when it arrived.

As did most other cars when they first arrived on the market. Several months after their introduction, Zanardi NSX's were still sitting in dealer showrooms and eventually sold for steep discounts.

Coupes always cost less than targas, subtract $7K.

Ever since the introduction of the NSX-T in 1995, the coupe has been available at an MSRP that was $4K less than the NSX-T. Most customers bought the NSX-T anyway.

That is what I want! And if I order a hand-built car, what I expect!

This is how most cars were built and sold many years ago (and some still are today). You would go down a list of options and choose those you wanted. They would build exactly the car you ordered, and six to eight weeks later it would be delivered. The problem with building cars this way was primarily one of cost. The manufacturers and dealers found that most consumers wanted their cars equipped in some fairly standard ways. Those interested in saving money chose very few options. Those interested in the options generally chose most of them. And the carmakers found that they could save money by building the cars that most customers wanted. So instead of having a list of 50 or more options that customers chose, they put together a small number of packages (typically 2-6 per model) that reflected what the majority of customers were choosing. And by doing this, they cut down on their production costs by reducing the number of different combinations of items that needed to be built. They also cut down on financing costs; instead of taking eight weeks to have YOUR car built and delivered, the dealer either had one, or could find one in a nearby dealer's inventory that they could trade for. Most customers adjusted to the new system easily because they were getting the cars that they wanted AND because the cars cost less than they would if every individual item were customized.

Did this mean a loss of choice? Yes. Were most of those choices meaningful to most customers? Hardly. Perhaps you were the exception - but for most customers, this meant getting a fully-equipped car for less than the price it would cost if each of those equipment options were selected individually.

The more I look and read about the prototype at the car show, the more I'm convinced that the next NSX will be a 2+2.

No prototype of the next-generation NSX has been shown at any car show, and no reliable information has been available about it.

Likewise, if I don't like flashy chrome on the 2002, I have the right to say so.

On that, we can both agree. You indeed have the right to say what you want in a car - here and in other public forums, as well as in correspondence to Honda, as Prancing Horse insightfully suggested. If the executives there think that what you want is what most of the market wants, then perhaps that is how the models will be sold. If they decide not to sell the cars that way, it is probably because they think that what you want is not what most of the market wants.

I just don't understand the demographic of the person that the NSX is being marketed to right now, as opposed to when the car first arrived on the scene.

That much is VERY clear from your statements, such as "Performance minded people are not buying the NSX. Not new, anyway" and your implication that this is something new. Fact is, performance-minded people were not buying new NSX's then, either. The first year the NSX was on the market, over three thousand were sold in the States. Yet it was extremely unusual to see one at a racetrack event for the first four to five years it was on the market. I'll give you two of the most revealing statements about the demographics of the buyers of new NSX's, courtesy of a dealer I know. One, he describes how much of the time an NSX purchase is an impulse purchase. Someone walks into the dealership, sees the flashy car, and buys it. Usually paying cash. This is how many NSX's are sold. Two, he says that the biggest competitor of the NSX is a good-sized boat. Perhaps you and I (and most of the folks on NSXprime) are car enthusiasts who appreciate the technology and capability of a well-designed sports car, but to a large extent, the reason that cars like the NSX can be built and sold is because of the many people who are NOT enthusiasts but want something flashy to show off and talk about to their friends. And this is why so much of the market demanded an open-top, well-equipped NSX, rather than the stripper NSX that you demand.

I think your myopia is the result of your inability to realize that much of what sells new high-performance cars is panache and pizzazz, and that most of the equipment you don't want on your car is expected to come as standard equipment in today's upper-end sports car market. Check out the options list for Porsche and Ferrari and you will not see any savings on their delete options, either. Buyers of expensive production sports cars expect them to be equipped like expensive production sports cars, not like subcompact economy cars. And that's why the manufacturers sell them that way.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 11 February 2002).]
 
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Originally posted by nsxtasy:
Is the 97 NSX-T a better car than the 91 NSX?

In most ways, yes: more power, better gearing, and the many other improvements that were made over the years, too numerous to mention.

However, the '91 is more rigid (because it is a coupe) and may be more suitable for track usage for that reason, for those individuals for whom this is an important objective. And, of course, it's less expensive, so it may be considered a better value.

I would like to know if the 97-T is stiff enough as I never track my car and when I do drive it hard on clover-leafs and such I am sure I am nowhere near the limits.
I hate squeaks and rattles.
 
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The Lexus SC roof rattles. Go to the forums they have and see.
OK maybe rattles is the wrong word but it does squeak.

[This message has been edited by rcarlos (edited 11 February 2002).]
 
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Not too fan the flames, but I think that M.S. thinks the same thing that I do; namely, that the Honda Dualnote seems to be a very reasonable *possibility* for the next generation NSX.

The more I hear about the Dualnote, the more I think that it, or something quite similar, will be the NSX replacement; from what I recall, the gasoline powerplant will be close to the current NSX engine, and then the electric motors on the front.

Seems to be the next wave for Honda, comparable power (when both types are running) to lots of other high power cars of today, and 4wd to get back at the Skyline crowd. 8P

Personally, I find myself agreeing with M.S. about many of his points, but I also see the counterpoints from NSXTasy. There were many different paths that Honda could have taken with the NSX, there are positives and negatives for each. A $40k, mid-engined, Z06 killer that came out in 1991?
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Not "refined" enough, not "exclusive" enough. A $200k no-holds-barred sports car? Out of the reach of the "enthusiast", impractical, etc.

To each their own, and let's please keep this a friendly discussion of opinions!
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There is a famous Spanky and Our Gang episode called "Freewheelin'" where Buckwheat and Spanky are selling Ice out of the back of a horse cart. Thers's a donkey, there's a stick with a carrot. A tire bursts, and the donkey breaks free. The cart starts careening down the hill at breakneck speed. Spanky turns to Buckwheat, yells, "HIT the brakes!" Buckwheat turns to him and yells, "Brakes is gone! We's freewheelin'!"
 
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To each their own, and let's please keep this a friendly discussion of opinions!

Of course! We are simply exchanging opinions and listening to each other, as all friends do.
 
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i have to agree with MS on some points.

i can see HONDA slowly turning into another fat bloated car company. (GM, FORD, TOyoTa)

Not that HOnda doesnt deserve to make $$$, but it would be sad to see it lose the 'spirit' that it was founded on.
 
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It sounds like M.S. wants a Caterham, here is what the Caterham offers:

No Radio, just the engine sounds.

No Leather or Chrome, just carbon fibre, kevlar, alluminum and magnessium.

No Heater, the engine and trans. generates enough heat for most though.

No top or windows or doors, there is a vinyl one you can snap on if the weather gets really bad.

A chassis that makes most every other car look limp.

Nothing included that doesn't make the car faster.

The man who designed the car had a now famous slogan of "We must add more lightness".

They create a car that has a pounds to H.P. ratio of 4, Or 500 H.P. per english tonne.

Is faster than a lot of "Race Cars"

They sell the car for a lot less money than a new NSX.

They also don't sell very many of them, especially in the states, because the people that will put up with a car like this are few and far between.

I feel you are incorrect in the statement that "My only point is that Honda should make exactly the car that YOU want to buy, at a price that YOU want to pay, and the rest of the world be damned!"

If a company was crazy (stupid) enough to design a car based on one persons idea of what they should release and how a car should be optioned than they may only sell one car. They need to look at the big picture and try to reach the largest target market they can. Depending on the target market and how much they spend in development they can see if they can justify their car.
 

Lud

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If a company was crazy (stupid) enough to design a car based on one persons idea of what they should release and how a car should be optioned than they may only sell one car.

homer_dreamcar.gif



[This message has been edited by Lud (edited 11 February 2002).]
 
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