Safety Accessories for Track

[92 white 0650]

Re: HANS Specific belts; 20 questions

So, Mark, what’s the deal on the 2” wide HANS specific shoulder belts such as Schroth? (not the “F-1” double belts) I bought a set at the beginning of the year and they seem to work really well with the HANS for comfort and staying in place. However, I haven’t crashed with these belts yet, so sitting in the car and only pulling a couple of g’s in normal driving isn’t really the metric we’re interested in.

But since they are only 2” wide, will they not stretch more than normal 3” wide belts? Or are the 3 inch belts compromised by the HANS collar in that they are stressed unevenly because 1/3 of the belt width is hanging off the collar and isn’t under the same tension that the rest of the belt is? Does Schroth rely on polyester being less stretchy for acceptable performance?

We were debating this last winter. Someone called HANS and was told the 2-in. HANS specific belts were not approved or recommended. So I called them back to ask specifically if that meant that they recommended against the 2” belts. The answer I got was something like “No, we’re not saying that, we just haven’t tested the 2” belts, so we don’t know how well they work.” (I wonder if they were doing Hrant's suggested testing with airbags? :biggrin

So, that’s as far as we got. Many of us use Schroth 2” belts (I heard Simpson was working on a set), and simply trust that Schroth has a reason why 2” works fine without a double thickness. Are we kidding ourselves? What’s the current official blather and what's the real end-user scoop?

 

[the nsxnut]

Is your HANS device more than 3 years old, Ted? Since 2004, the outer edge of the yoke has a flare that retains the edge of the harnesses. So, you put the outer edge of the 3" harnesses against this flared edge of the device, and the inner edge of the harness rides up against the riser part, next to your neck. Sorry I don't have a picture. Anyway, that keeps the full width of the harness over the yokes, for maximum benefit.

I'm not sure of what testing Schroth has done, either with just the tapered 2", or the double-harness, so I won't comment on their effectivness. HANS testing has been done with 3" harnesses, and results are very reliable. (that doesn't mean 2" isn't reliable, only that it is not quantified by HANS).

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: HANS Specific belts; 20 questions

Mark, my HANS is less than 2 years old and has the flare or lip. My old 3 inch Simpsons didn't want to sit inside that flare as you described. But the more important issue is achieving the correct geometry of the belts from the HANS collar to the anchor points. As I noted above, many formula cars were designed before the HANS became popular and the anchor points are 8" apart. That's too wide to achieve that 20-25 degree converging angle since we sit only 6-10" from the anchor points. So when that critical problem is solved, the belts (any width) stay in place. And from the description on the HANS website, it sounds like the double belts are even more critical for geometry.

The 2" belts are merely a bonus for getting belted in quickly by yourself when you're on grid in 100F temps wearing the equivalent of a zero degree snowboard suit.

So, Mark, I guess that's it for this thread? Hrant got his Okey dokey to rely on his airbag, so he's happy and gone? Too bad, I was going to suggest you and he organize a (rare) group buy similar to the one on ApexSpeed where over 50 of us got a 30 degree ($1165 retail) for $949. NSX drivers need a 20 degree (retail $865), so with any discount at all, it's starting to sound cheap. :wink: Just a thought.

 

[the nsxnut]

I used to run a FM, so I know what you mean about the anchor points. Yes, that would keep the harnesses from staying inside the flares.

Good to hear that you had such a good response from the formula car crowd to get in on using the HANS device. If anyone following this thread is interested in upgrading their cockpit safety with a HANS, you can contact me directly by email. If there is enough interest to comprise a 'group' (perhaps 10 devices), I'll see what can be done for a discount. Details and choices can be seen online at www.hansdevice.com

 

[Hrant]

Would still like to see results (lab or otherwise) comparing with and without air bag. Surely HANS must have tested such a scenario given the potential to market this to HPDE/HPDS where most will have an OEM steering with an air bag.

So, Mark, I guess that's it for this thread? Hrant got his Okey dokey to rely on his airbag, so he's happy and gone?

Well, not so fast Ted. I called HANS and asked if they have tested their HNR with and without air bag. They have NOT tested on cars with air bag because they view the air bag as a single of one time functional use given an incident where there may be more than a single barrier. This is why they don't recommend the use of an OEM steering because its wasted not that is makes things worse.

HANS' position is, as long as you have a properly mounted harness bar and belts, using a HANS (HNR) device is better whether one has a roll cage or not; sure roll cage is preferable. The point he tried to make is its not that obstrusive but there are preconceived notions and they want people to try them out.

 

[hbennett]

I just registered for this forum to help make sure everyone is clear on the HANS Device. I will try to answer every question I can.

1. I don't think the HANS Device has ever been tested in conjunction with an airbag. Two different applications. One is for racing, the other is for the street. From a personal standpoint, I would suggest disabling the airbag if you are using the HANS.

2. Yes, the R3 depends on a harness coming over the shoulder. Some people "feel" more comfortable because of it straps to the body but it still requires a harness to function.

3. I don't think HANS has ever tested with 2" shoulder straps. I think Schroth has since they have a 2" specific HANS harness. In SCCA club racing, you can only use the 2" straps with the HANS device. We test with SFI certified 3" straps because they are SFI certified.

4. HANS has no special harness mounting instructions. HANS mounting instructions are along with SFI's (and SCCA by the way). HANS specifies the shoulder straps be mounted 3" or less (measured at the inside edge of each strap) at the mounting point. SFI specifies 4-6" measured at the center line of each 3" strap. The shoulder straps should cradle the HANS device on each side. HANS specifies the shoulder straps to be mounted 1-2" below the horizontal point off the top of the HANS Device. SFI specifies mounting points to be perpendicular (sp?) to the spine and not more than 5 degree's upward or 30 degree's downward angle.

5. As far as using a harness bar without a roll bar/cage, that is up to you. Check with the harness bar's manufacturer to see if they recommend mounting shoulder straps directly to the harness bar. A lot of the harness bars that I have seen on the market are to get the correct angle for the shoulder straps off the shoulder then mount the ends to the chassis. If the harness bar doesn't mount in the proper location for these angles, the harness bar is not going to do much good.

Mark, who are you with being a certified HANS technician? Thanks.

Howard Bennett
HANS Performance

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: The other guys

Howard, do you ever cross swords with Gregg Baker on forums like ApexSpeed or is that just a waste of time?

Yes, the R3 depends on a harness coming over the shoulder.

The R3 and Hutchens II ads contend the harness installation and operation is not as critical as the HANS; more of a universal plug-and-play unit than the HANS.

Anyway, thanks for dropping by, check back in case Hrant or I come up with some other off the wall questions. :tongue:

 

[BioBanker]

If there is enough interest to comprise a 'group' (perhaps 10 devices), I'll see what can be done for a discount. Details and choices can be seen online at www.hansdevice.com

I have interest for 4 Hans devices.

I would love to see what can be put together.

 

[VBNSX]

If there is enough interest to comprise a 'group' (perhaps 10 devices), I'll see what can be done for a discount. Details and choices can be seen online at www.hansdevice.com

I'm curious for one also...

x

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: HANS Group Buy is Back!!!

Go here in case y'all haven't done the deal with Mark yet.

 

[Hrant]

Thanks Ted for the heads up. Nope, Mark never responded to my knowledge.

I will be at Infineon on 11/12 and will test fit it one there at the shop, they are an authorized Hans retailer ........

 

[the nsxnut]

I had offline contact with all interested parties... I didn't use this thread to arrange a group buy.

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: Helmet group purchase

Many of us are having to toss our old smelly :redface: SA 95 helmets on January 1 and a buddy of mine is asking if anyone is interested in a group buy. Personally I think it's a long shot since the average joe hasn't tried many on and has no idea whether he's got a Simpson, Bell, Arai, Shoei, HJC....etc shaped head. (Plenty of threads on the importance of helmet fit.) But if you are not the average joe and think you know, check it out. Tell him NSXted sent you.

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: Another H&N Device?

I had seen the Leatt brace for motorcycle racers before. Now I see there's a new model that may be an alternative to the HANS, R-3 and similar. I have not yet tried to digest and dissect the blather on the website, so I don't know anything about it. But Gregg Baker of the Isaac H&N device at least mentioned it which I take as an acknowledgement that it might be in the running as a legitimate device. Anyone know more?

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

Re: Another H&N Device?

Ted,

I saw that Leatt brace at PRI show last December. It is bulky, but yet pretty easy to get out of. About same difficulty to put it in.

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: Food for thought

Here's a question I posted on another website. I toss it out here as this device seems to do things a little differently (and maybe that's good).

From the website for the Moto-R device, the one for cars:

Quote:
This is achieved by bringing the head to a controlled stop against the padded, rigid anatomical brace perimeter and reduction in neck tension aided by our SSS (Smart Strap System). Unlike other systems, the SSS is simply attached to the helmets normal chin strap and required no drilling or special helmet.

Question: So, this Leatt device uses the shoulder harness belts to hold the device on the shoulders same as a HANS? OK so far so good. But, it uses just the helmet chin strap to keep the helmet attached to the device? And does that assume that the pure axial load (head flying straight off the shoulders) is reduced somewhat by the resistance to rotation (chin snapping forward on to the chest) from the chest bib part of the device? And these 2 types of resistance together are enough that HANS like tethers or the Isaac shock absorbers are not necessary? Is that the concept? Seems to take a lot for granted that HANS and similar as well as Isaac do not.

As in most new things, it looks bizarre, so I'm not going to judge it too quickly like some people judged the HANS.

 

[Red]

Re: Food for thought

Here's a question I posted on another website. I toss it out here as this device seems to do things a little differently (and maybe that's good).

As in most new things, it looks bizarre, so I'm not going to judge it too quickly like some people judged the HANS.

Two thoughts:
1) The best safety device I bought for track days was a Porsche 951 with full cage, etc. Beats wondering if your head will clear if teh NSX rolls, and besides, a cheap, used racecar is cheaper to write-off than a little ding in your X!

2) I've spent a LOT of time researching options, and things liek the Hutchens seems like they're provide a bit better protection in side/offset impact, I'm sure this new frankenstein one mentioned above has its merits too - for me its HANS for one reason:

ITS THE ONLY ONE WHERE ITS SUPER EASY FOR SOMEONE ELSE TO GET YOU OUT OF THE CAR WHILE YOU"RE WEARING IT!

My buddy is an ER Doc and he says the time it takes to cut off a helmet IF they have the equipment there is almost enough time to suffer brain injury from O2 deprivation. I'd hate to be unconcious (or just injured so I was disoriented and or lost the use of one arm) in my crashed or worse burning car and be strapped into a Hutchens with those two pins that need to be pulled out from each side of the helmet - talk about a compromise in safety!

Haveing been in the pits and actually helped load drivers into real racecars under race conditions I can say that the HANS hangs up a bit on stuff, anything with more staps, etc worries the hell out of me!