looks like quite a shop you got there...i checked out the link in your signature... awesome!!!
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Save 50lbs by swapping wheels...FULL carbon fiber barrels / magnesium face...
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John I read that article and a few others on the net on the wheel, its composites, manufacturing process, etc. I am fairly convinced at this point that a lot can happen in an accident, but this wheel isn't going to come apart. I am not basing this on any of the pictures, but on the info I found on the internet. It looks like this thing will take some serious abuse, in fact it is stronger than most standard magnesium or aluminum alloy wheels.
What I find most complaining about, is cost. And new technology is always expensive. I am not sure you can make the comparison of this to 26" dubs on an SUV. Those, actually DETERIORATE the performance of the car they are on in almost every category. The "status" of that... I frankly cannot figure out... high performance street wheels on a car designed to go OFF road.
But this wheel has benefits, the first of which is the lower rotational mass in a wheel of the same size. This will help in acceleration and braking big time, I am sure. I am willing to bet even the dyno will show a difference.
I understand your point, I think what you are saying is that the cost/performance ratio is very high, and that what most people will get this for, is the status. But I would say that a better comparison is like someone buying a plasma TV for $20,000 when they first came out. Its not a BAD item on its own, just very pricey for what you get.
Lets be realistic... If you want to look at it like that, there are a whole host of items just like this that people put on their cars... including BBK's, titanium exhausts, CF hoods, and last but not least, almost ALL wheel/tire "upgrades" on cars. Expensive items that could be better spent elsewhere if one's purpose if pure performance.
This wheel is expensive... but "value" is purely a personal thing. Most people that own F430's and Murcielagos are crappy drivers... that does not make those cars bad.
What I find most complaining about, is cost. And new technology is always expensive. I am not sure you can make the comparison of this to 26" dubs on an SUV. Those, actually DETERIORATE the performance of the car they are on in almost every category. The "status" of that... I frankly cannot figure out... high performance street wheels on a car designed to go OFF road.
But this wheel has benefits, the first of which is the lower rotational mass in a wheel of the same size. This will help in acceleration and braking big time, I am sure. I am willing to bet even the dyno will show a difference.
I understand your point, I think what you are saying is that the cost/performance ratio is very high, and that what most people will get this for, is the status. But I would say that a better comparison is like someone buying a plasma TV for $20,000 when they first came out. Its not a BAD item on its own, just very pricey for what you get.
Lets be realistic... If you want to look at it like that, there are a whole host of items just like this that people put on their cars... including BBK's, titanium exhausts, CF hoods, and last but not least, almost ALL wheel/tire "upgrades" on cars. Expensive items that could be better spent elsewhere if one's purpose if pure performance.
This wheel is expensive... but "value" is purely a personal thing. Most people that own F430's and Murcielagos are crappy drivers... that does not make those cars bad.
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It might be more accurate to simply say that it's tensile strength is stronger. Carbon composites in and of themselves are not necessarily universally stronger than a forged alloy in all respects. As with dry carbon construction in Formula One tubs... depending on the materials, resin, pressure, cure time, and even the direction of the fibers and number of layers- certain measurable attributes can said to be stronger. However, only in certain directions under specific stress loads depending on how the matrix is optimized.
Most central to my argument above all else.. is that this is really just a new application for an old technology in many ways. It's a multi piece carbon composite wheel, not nano tubes or anything truly revolutionary. Applicability for road wheels is questionable even among experts in the field.
In a world where people really don't maintain autos.. at all.. how the composite lay-up wheels will survive over the long term is of issue over years of heat cycles, corrosives, fluids, UV, pitting, temp extremes, user mis-care, improper mounting, etc... Similar to the precision turbine blades in a jet engine, you cannot afford for them to fail. While racers like to take risks, consider that P&M lost a car at sebring because a brake rotor failed, let alone the whole wheel. With no service mechanisms in place to ensure integrity, personally this leaves me pause for the average enthusiast that would purchase a set and track on them over the course of many years and amortize that investment.
What I find most complaining about, is cost. And new technology is always expensive. I am not sure you can make the comparison of this to 26" dubs on an SUV. Those, actually DETERIORATE the performance of the car they are on in almost every category. The "status" of that... I frankly cannot figure out... high performance street wheels on a car designed to go OFF road.
I have to agree, if I was going to buy a Hummer I'd get a real one at auction and keep the 50 caliber mount. I'd find that to be more practical for both the urban and off-road environment. :biggrin:
I think the larger plasma screen example you provided is better than my own of dubs. When they first came out there didn't seem to be a shortage of enthusiasts whom went dollars in hand to local hi fi stores to get their slice of home theater nirvana, often in the absurd 15-30K range for a television. Many ended up with nothing but missing pixels and service woes because of poor material quality control at plants in the far east. Some manufacturers again learned that one's quality is only as good as the quality of ones supplier. Likewise, some may choose to follow suite in this space. The biggest difference in my mind is my TV doesn't kill me when it breaks. Puns aside...
Still, if you believe that form follows function then dubs on SUV's are looked upon as being contrary to the intended application. Likewise, unnecessary higher end parts on sport compact cars could easily be extended the same argument. I would see them differently on a Rolex GT3 cup car than on a GT3 street car. I may see it as being plausible for a commercial effort at a time attack or pro race event than on a celebrity's exotic. We were originally discussing these in the context of higher end street exotics, but what is next... could you see these on a civic dx hatchback with an eleven piece polyurethane body kit cruising the strip or on the cover of import tuner, and in turn believe them to be functional in that context? Of course not.. and again like dome dry carbon kits and ceramic BBK's threads... personally I find the big picture application to be most relevant in the import tuning aftermarket, no matter how much money the car owner has to blow on parts.
Quite likely, as continuing materials and tooling advances are made, we will all be sporting carbon composite road race wheels with Michelin tweels, and one day I myself with be calling NSX Status for a set. I think again it is really wait and see if this technology will see wider adoption in our space. As with anything, materials advances are coming one way or the other... just takes time. :smile:
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No, mainly because one wheel would be worth more than the car and everything in it. :biggrin:
I still find these very intriguing... I can't help it John, I am all about the unsprung weight... I changed the wheels of my MB CL600 from a 30 pound AMG to a 19.9 pound Renntech and with no other mods on an average of like 6 runs in two directions my g-tech was showing me a .3 or .4 second reduction to 80 MPH. I can't remember the details now but it was shocking.
I spoke with the owner of exotic auto center in California the other week for the first time, and he mentioned ambitions for a personal NSX project whereas an NSX chassis would be significantly modified to accomodate a BMW V12 out of a 7 series- sounded to me like F1 on a budget approach. I think it is safe to say it is wait and see on that one...
In the meantime, back to your M600.... did you need to borrow my sawzall? The John@Micro approach can make that g-tech sing. :biggrin:
How do they compare in weight to a set of full magnesium wheels? These are an example that weigh in at 12.9lbs. for an 18x8.5" wheel. They aren't cheap either and only come in limited sizes.
How do they compare in weight to a set of full magnesium wheels? These are an example that weigh in at 12.9lbs. for an 18x8.5" wheel. They aren't cheap either and only come in limited sizes.
Does it not say MAG on the wheel of the volk??? I don't think that is the one that your speaking of... nice one piece wheel though... Personally I think that they DYMAGs have a better look overall to it.... I really like the fact that nobody has them yet either...:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
Here's a pic I took in Tokyo last year of an NSX with the magnesium TE-37's that says "MAG" on the wheel. :biggrin: The previous pic I just linked from a random pic on the net. This is a 17" front, which IMO is the best looking size on the NSX front.
^NIce...^^^^^^^^^^^^^ . I like the fact that they are weight saving but they look really stock to me... the stock rims are really light themselves... IMO the wheel size up grade to a 18 with the correct tire size and suspension really give it a better looking stance overall... The "gaps" just don't do it for me... The look is one thing of the DYMAG's and the performance is a whole different thing... From people that I know that bought the wheel really love it and rave that you can feel it right away... the first ride back after they are on is suppose to make you feel the difference.... i hope i get ....
2-3 more weeks.... I think.... who knows with these wheel companys????
....2-3 more weeks.... I think.... who knows with these wheel companys????
ONE MORE WEEK....:redface: :redface: :redface: :redface: i hope it comes soon......
As Carbon wheels have been on motorcycles for many years, there already is the technology to know what is needed "to resist the effects of UV, corrosives, brake dust, etc..." .
Lets not forget, there have been carbon carbon brake discs and pads around for more than 15 years. The temps that wheels see will never be as high as a brake disc. Now a wheel is only going to be constructed to be able to withstand 300-350 degrees as there is no reason to make them withstand the same temps as a brake disc. And the cost is much higher to make them do so.
I believe it comes down to what it always comes down to, the ability of the manufacture to design and manufacture the wheel to meets the needs of the application. And Dymag does have a tremendous amount of experiance there.
I do have a set of the Volks forged mag wheels on my NSX, and on the street at legal speeds they made a huge difference, acceleration improved, shifting became smoother. I have the weights at work for both front and rear, if anyone is interested I will post them.
At just over double the price of the standard, no question the Volk mags are awesome. I suppose I opened a can of worms, however the truth be told this very topic can be debated until the cows come home. Here's another 11 page thread on the Agusta forums whereas they proceed down that very path when a poster put up a similar warning, I'd encourage anyone to read it over.
http://www.mvagusta.net/forum/showthread.php?t=571&page=1&pp=10
However, my original premise remains the same as of today. Status/Bling.
Like ceramic brakes, most all forms of club, semi-pro, and pro racing has this specific technology called out and thus prohibited by technical inspection, right up to and including 2007 FIA technical regulations article 258 section 12.3 as would be applicable to something on the order of something like the British GT championship. In fact, there is even a minimum weight called out of 7.5/8.5kg f/r. So, the pro's don't use them. Even lowly SCCA club touring classes calls them out in 9.1.2 section 7-A. Most rational minded people would at least stop and think that maybe there was a good reason for this. However, the real point I am driving at is that by installing the part it takes most all legit competitive uses off the table.
So, that puts them into the hands of performance club enthusiasts, of which a small subset might actually even see a race surface or auto-x cones... of which they only want to think they need them, when all driving instructors know they really do not.
To which end, we go back to the start.. and I will still most definitely question the suitability of CF structural components for spirited street use and low budget privateer racing.
How effectively can a person monitor the structural integrity of a carbon composite component WITHOUT having the benefit of an ultrasonic testing machine in his garage, nor without having an accurate log of the 'events' and history of the component or a trained engineer on tap to analyze the results and make sound technical decions unabated by budget?
I think the answer is, it's not effectively possible. In fact, one would be in a very rare class of track day enthusiasts if you could honorably state you pay such due diligence with your existing forged wheels.
Think broader in scope... some of the best intentions, component engineering, and applications of new materials science the world has yet to see has come at the price of horrible consequences, like the ICE train disaster due to wheel separation or the crash of AA flight 587 which was attributed to the tail fin's epoxy defect as I recall. One of the first commercial applications for that composite part. No matter how big a check you can afford to write for a set of wheels, know that there are pro race organizations and manufacturers like Toyota out there spending millions of dollars on driver safety- up to and including hiring metallurgists and structural engineering consultants.. and they still have the more robust non-composite wheels fail every year. Yet some forum propeller heads want to make this essential structual and safety item even lighter without having any of those resources or processes? Does any part of that sound like a good idea?
No matter how much one wants to believe, it remains comical to me how quickly some choose to sway the argument of composite wheels by touting a UK company like Dymag of all, which if it were not even for their specialty cycle business or there annual exposure at SEMA, most would not even know. It's not like BBS or Enkei with OEM contracts worth tens of millions of dollars started tooling to produce OEM composite wheels this year for BMW. Relative in size, anyone of the big boys could buy Dymag out in a second if they thought that was a viable competitive direction or practical business solution. It has yet to happen.
In short, I feel I have adequately proved my viewpoint, having a justifiably pragmatic view on the feasibility of carbon composite road race wheels for NSX club enthusiasts at this time. If one insists to sport them down the interstate to club lunches or even a padock this summer, I have no doubt the further acceleration afforded and lost corner weight will prove an invaluable talking point.
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"At just over double the price of the standard, no question the Volk mags are awesome. I suppose I opened a can of worms, however the truth be told this very topic can be debated until the cows come home. Here's another 11 page thread on the Agusta forums whereas they proceed down that very path when a poster put up a similar warning, I'd encourage anyone to read it over.
http://www.mvagusta.net/forum/showth...1&page=1&pp=10"
If it is on the internet it must be true.
I am sorry I did not read all 13 pages on the MV forum, I did see the posters links. It seem some FACTS were left out.
The first case the Wheel falling from a tire warmer being on it, and the failure occuring at 140 degrees, wrong, it was a failure of the tire warmer, it did not shut down at the temp it was set to, it heated the wheel to over 300 degrees, the wheel did not fail it deformed and developed a slow air leak, there was no crash, no the wheel did not break apart, but the tire warmer manufacture warrantied the warmer.
The wheels will "melt" when the curing temp on the resin used is reached. This is around 300-350 dregrees on a BST wheel, depending on the resin used it could be made higher or lower.
The second link, the wheel was send to a South African University to see what caused the wheel to fail, they not BST determinded the wheel had not failed before the guys crash, it failed when he crashed the bike in turn one at Willow Springs. I have a copy of the report for anyone who would like to see it.
The third was a Clip-on, clearly poorly made or poorly engineered.
As I said before the product has to be well made and well engineered by a company that has the knowledge to do this.
By the way Dymag, whose Motorcycle wheels I do not even sell, I sell BST and Marchesini, has been making both car and Motorcycle Racing wheels since at least the early 1980's, that is when I was first aware of them.
By the way the weight of the Volks Mag wheels are:
Front 8X8.5 16.5 lbs
Rear 18X9.5 17.75 lbs
http://www.mvagusta.net/forum/showth...1&page=1&pp=10"
If it is on the internet it must be true.
I am sorry I did not read all 13 pages on the MV forum, I did see the posters links. It seem some FACTS were left out.
The first case the Wheel falling from a tire warmer being on it, and the failure occuring at 140 degrees, wrong, it was a failure of the tire warmer, it did not shut down at the temp it was set to, it heated the wheel to over 300 degrees, the wheel did not fail it deformed and developed a slow air leak, there was no crash, no the wheel did not break apart, but the tire warmer manufacture warrantied the warmer.
The wheels will "melt" when the curing temp on the resin used is reached. This is around 300-350 dregrees on a BST wheel, depending on the resin used it could be made higher or lower.
The second link, the wheel was send to a South African University to see what caused the wheel to fail, they not BST determinded the wheel had not failed before the guys crash, it failed when he crashed the bike in turn one at Willow Springs. I have a copy of the report for anyone who would like to see it.
The third was a Clip-on, clearly poorly made or poorly engineered.
As I said before the product has to be well made and well engineered by a company that has the knowledge to do this.
By the way Dymag, whose Motorcycle wheels I do not even sell, I sell BST and Marchesini, has been making both car and Motorcycle Racing wheels since at least the early 1980's, that is when I was first aware of them.
By the way the weight of the Volks Mag wheels are:
Front 8X8.5 16.5 lbs
Rear 18X9.5 17.75 lbs
A few years ago I saw a thread on a motorcycle forum about a Ducatti owner with Crabon wheels on his bike. He was at a track day and all of a sudden the rear wheel completely disintegrated. Completely demolished the whole bike. The guy was extremely lucky to walk away from this accident. He stated in the thread that the wheels were practically brand new and that he had NEVER hit anything, jumped a curb or anything else of that matter to compromise the integrity of the wheel.
For the price, its safer to go with forged magnesium or aluminum and trade off the 1 or 2 lb. weight savings. No amount of money can buy the peace of mind knowing such a critical component could fail at ANY possible moment without notice.
One thread on the internet goes a long way.
This is the same thread as in the MV forum, see answer below:
The second link, the wheel was send to a South African University to see what caused the wheel to fail, they not BST determinded the wheel had NOT failed before the guys crash, it failed when he crashed the bike in turn one at Willow Springs. I have a copy of the report for anyone who would like to see it.
Here are the two short versions of what BST did in each of the two cases, again anyone wanting to see the full test report email me at [email protected].
P.S. Sorry to actually post facts on the internet and name the source, I relize that is not the way it is done on the internet.
Hello everyone
Well it has been some time in the making, but the tests on the broken Ducati wheel from Thunderhill are finally out.
The most important thing to come out of all of this is that “The breakage surface of the rim also appeared to have broken as a result of force and not of structural fatigue failure” and “The wheel had been built to specification in terms of the construction” and “It is our considered opinion that the cause of failure cannot be ascribed to materials and construction of the wheel”.
I attach here a copy of the final report from the Centre for Polymer Technology (www.cpttech.co.za ) which specializes in failure analysis, product development and testing of polymers and is part of the Tshwane University of Technology located in Pretoria. They conducted all tests and produced the report.
The purpose of the tests was to discover if the wheel was correctly made (built to specification) and if the materials and construction were correct.
The analysis included: discussions with authorities in carbon composite manufacture, differential scanning calorimetry, thermogravimetric analysis, infra red spectroscopy, burn-off tests, dynamic mechanical thermal analysis and electron microscopy.
We were always confident that the wheel broke on impact, and this report proves that the materials and construction were 100% according to specification. How the impact occurred was beyond the scope of the exercise, obviously, since the testing centre only had access to the wheel.
I trust this will put an end to the speculation. We are finished with the issue, having met our commitments.
Thanks for your support. If you have any queries, please let me know.
Cheers for now,
terry
Terry Annecke
BlackStone Tek (Pty) Ltd
Tel: +27 11 704-0026
Fax: +27 11 704-0031
Incident 2: Wheel deformed by faulty tire warmer (apologies – tire is USA spelling for tyre!)
I have been in contact with everyone involved and am getting a very positive reaction, and BST will be working with Pantera in the USA to provide wheels for their track days at a couple of demo and promotion days (a jolly good idea, I think).
The wheel has been assessed by the Polymer Testing Centre and the findings indicate that the damaged areas of the wheel have seen a 10-15% deterioration of heat resistance after being exposed to too high temperature for too long. It’s difficult to say what temperatures were achieved in order to create this damage, so we did a lot of tests to try and recreate the situation, and found the following:
1. Very often the tire warmers generate much higher temperatures than they state – several sets rated 90 degrees C actually achieved in excess of 130 deg C.
2. BST wheels heat up slowly until they reach saturation temp after 3-5 hours, and that temp was never higher than 60 degrees C. On forged magnesium the sat temp is a couple of degrees lower (52-55 deg C) and is reach quicker (3 hours) because magnesium is a better conductor of heat.
3. Full enclosed tire warmers lead to a higher sat temp - approx 75 deg C for normal tire warmers and 85 deg C for defective warmers. The combination of fully enclosed warmers and defective warmers can lead to damage on a carbon rim.
4. We simulated a defective warmer – the temp exceeded 150 deg C and the wheel got to 105 deg C, saturation time was approx 3 hours, and damage became evident. This was exacerbated by the use of a fully enclosed tire warmer.
5. Without a doubt the tire warmer used by our rider in the US was faulty, and it appears that the wheel saw temperatures in excess of 140 deg C.
If you have existing wheels in stock, as a precaution, please add the following label to the box:
Instructions on the use of tire warmers on BST wheels:
Ensure that the warmers and regulators are operating correctly
Do not use enclosed tire warmers (side covers that blanket the entire wheel)
BST wheels are designed to operate at up to 80 degrees Celsius (180 degrees F)
There is a margin of safety already built in at 80 degrees C.
Thanks a lot and please call if you have any queries,
terry
Terry Annecke
BlackStone Tek (Pty) Ltd
Tel: +27 11 704-0026
Fax: +27 11 704-0031
www.blackstonetek.com
P.S. Sorry to actually post facts on the internet and name the source, I relize that is not the way it is done on the internet.
Hello everyone
Well it has been some time in the making, but the tests on the broken Ducati wheel from Thunderhill are finally out.
The most important thing to come out of all of this is that “The breakage surface of the rim also appeared to have broken as a result of force and not of structural fatigue failure” and “The wheel had been built to specification in terms of the construction” and “It is our considered opinion that the cause of failure cannot be ascribed to materials and construction of the wheel”.
I attach here a copy of the final report from the Centre for Polymer Technology (www.cpttech.co.za ) which specializes in failure analysis, product development and testing of polymers and is part of the Tshwane University of Technology located in Pretoria. They conducted all tests and produced the report.
The purpose of the tests was to discover if the wheel was correctly made (built to specification) and if the materials and construction were correct.
The analysis included: discussions with authorities in carbon composite manufacture, differential scanning calorimetry, thermogravimetric analysis, infra red spectroscopy, burn-off tests, dynamic mechanical thermal analysis and electron microscopy.
We were always confident that the wheel broke on impact, and this report proves that the materials and construction were 100% according to specification. How the impact occurred was beyond the scope of the exercise, obviously, since the testing centre only had access to the wheel.
I trust this will put an end to the speculation. We are finished with the issue, having met our commitments.
Thanks for your support. If you have any queries, please let me know.
Cheers for now,
terry
Terry Annecke
BlackStone Tek (Pty) Ltd
Tel: +27 11 704-0026
Fax: +27 11 704-0031
Incident 2: Wheel deformed by faulty tire warmer (apologies – tire is USA spelling for tyre!)
I have been in contact with everyone involved and am getting a very positive reaction, and BST will be working with Pantera in the USA to provide wheels for their track days at a couple of demo and promotion days (a jolly good idea, I think).
The wheel has been assessed by the Polymer Testing Centre and the findings indicate that the damaged areas of the wheel have seen a 10-15% deterioration of heat resistance after being exposed to too high temperature for too long. It’s difficult to say what temperatures were achieved in order to create this damage, so we did a lot of tests to try and recreate the situation, and found the following:
1. Very often the tire warmers generate much higher temperatures than they state – several sets rated 90 degrees C actually achieved in excess of 130 deg C.
2. BST wheels heat up slowly until they reach saturation temp after 3-5 hours, and that temp was never higher than 60 degrees C. On forged magnesium the sat temp is a couple of degrees lower (52-55 deg C) and is reach quicker (3 hours) because magnesium is a better conductor of heat.
3. Full enclosed tire warmers lead to a higher sat temp - approx 75 deg C for normal tire warmers and 85 deg C for defective warmers. The combination of fully enclosed warmers and defective warmers can lead to damage on a carbon rim.
4. We simulated a defective warmer – the temp exceeded 150 deg C and the wheel got to 105 deg C, saturation time was approx 3 hours, and damage became evident. This was exacerbated by the use of a fully enclosed tire warmer.
5. Without a doubt the tire warmer used by our rider in the US was faulty, and it appears that the wheel saw temperatures in excess of 140 deg C.
If you have existing wheels in stock, as a precaution, please add the following label to the box:
Instructions on the use of tire warmers on BST wheels:
Ensure that the warmers and regulators are operating correctly
Do not use enclosed tire warmers (side covers that blanket the entire wheel)
BST wheels are designed to operate at up to 80 degrees Celsius (180 degrees F)
There is a margin of safety already built in at 80 degrees C.
Thanks a lot and please call if you have any queries,
terry
Terry Annecke
BlackStone Tek (Pty) Ltd
Tel: +27 11 704-0026
Fax: +27 11 704-0031
www.blackstonetek.com
Wow... lot of debate here... I FINALLY GOT THEM ON THE CAR.. I am waiting for a different tire to come in and I will post the pictures soon... Looks really "race car like"...:biggrin: it takes the "bling" look away and gives it more of a sporty look... tell me what you think...:smile: :smile: :smile:
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