Schumacher or Senna??? Who was better?

[ExoticMD]

Vote who you think was (is) the better driver and why you think so???

 

[Mike-san]

Asking that question here is like going to Boston and asking if Magic was better than Bird.....

 

[NSXrunner]

Tough to answer because Senna was killed. Had Senna raced longer he might have won more titles. We will never know, and we can only guess.

 

[Miner]

I vote for Kareem. "You try running up and down the court with Walton and Lainer for 48 minutes." Oh, wait; wrong sport and wrong poll.

Juan Manuel Fangio.. He didn't even start racing F1 until age 39 so God only knows how many championships he would have won.

Senna was the most talented driver I ever saw. Schumacher more able to extract his talent. Senna took a great car and made it unbeatable. Schumacher made a bad team and made it unbeatable.

Slight edge to Schumacher.

 

[supra2nv]

this is also like asking if the Supra is better than the NSX on this forum lol...

 

[DocL]

It's also like asking who's more welcome here: Nick or Tamoske?

 

[NeoNSX]

Senna was a Honda boy - clearly he is better.

 

[BD]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAdXzQMWwiU&feature=related

You know my answer, Senna of course.

The reason is because Senna was driving during an era when there are plenty of good drivers, and drivers meant more than the design of the car. In fact, I classify Prost, Piquet, and Mansell all above MS. Senna even won 5 of 16 races in 1993 under Ford power car, and the Ford Engine used in his McLaren was not the same high spec like the one used in Beneton.

Today, drivers won races base on the car. I bet you if you put Jenson Button in a Ferrari, he will won races simply because the car is just that good.

Also, Senna started racing F1 3 years older than MS (24 vs 22):
Senna raced 162 with 65 Pole Position
Schumacher 250 with 68 Pole Position

Senna also had the most Pole position in a season with 8 (when there are only 16 races per season instead of 18/19 today).

Senna scored less points per race won during the 10 years of his F1 career, and scored more points than MS's first 10 years; during Senna's Era, race winners only received 6 points and MS received 10 points for winning the race after his 4th season (1996?).

If Senna didn't die in 1994, he probably would have race at least 6 more years and achieve more than 5 championships - which would have taken at least 2 to 4 championship away from MS, Damon Hill, Jac Villenuve, and Mika Hakkanen.

Even though Senna was #1 driver for his team after 1990, his team mates were free to race him; MS however, was spoon fed race wins under every possible possibilities.

And most important of all, MS cheated to win two of his championship. Senna did some thing questionable during the 1990 season by taking out Prost at the opening stage of Japanese GP, but was a revenge for what Prost did to him in 1989. He was man enough to admit his action; MS never had to come clean.

There are more important stats that actually matters, but too many to list here.

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[NSXDreamer2]

this is an interesting thing to compare... I always think car and driver had to be "together" arguing who's the best driver is so hard and so vague... It's even more difficult when you put two drivers in different era and compared. A driver could be better than B driver in an technological filled F1 machine with grove tires, maybe it's the other way around with the turbo engine with slick tires but less aero-aid... Heck put them in a same miata or nascar or Rally car I bet there will be totally different results too...

I vote for Senna as I felt he had a little more (likable) personality than Schey...

 

[Klayton]

Classifying Piquet above Schumacher, Piquet lost every qualifying except for one against the young Schumacher at Benetton. At his first complete F1 season one year later Schumacher became overall third. Needless to mention that Benetton without Schumachers skills to adapt to the new rules for example no antilock brakes etc. would'nt have been competitive with the engine from F1-newcomer Yamaha. After winning the 94 championship, in the worst F1 year, Benetton became competitive with new Renault engines. Needless to mention the subsequent dominated championship 95. After changing to Ferrari it took him four years to form Ferrari who technically were behind years after winning their last championship 79. In the following six years Ferrari dominated the F1 and Schumacher won four championships.

After all those spoon fed victories I guess he became fed up having no competition.

Vancehu you seem to be very passionate and knowledgeable about F1, no one would decry Senna, I don't think you're in need to decry Schumacher.

 

[BD]

This is a fact. The best driver usually ended up with the best team.

Therefore according to you, took Ferrari 4 years before MS can win the championship with them is a great accomplishment? Isn't that what a good team should be doing? Look, Kimi R. just won the championship last season, and the team did not enforce any team order on Massa!!! There is a good reason why the MS culture don't exist in Ferrari any more, because they know the MS culture cannot be carried on. They basically forced MS to retire, got rid of Jean Todt, refused to high Ross Brown back (who created the modern Ferrari), and demote Stephneygate. See the trend? Every strong team knows the championship can be won without cheapening the sport, even when individual team may take a detour from time to time.

You forgot to mention the fact that Beneton was caught cheating at the end of 1994 for having illegal traction control - ALL SEASON!!! Which helped MS won his first championship And yeah, he still need to bump Damon Hill out of the last race to win. Sorry, it's not about passion, it's about what MS did. MS is either a cheater, or not, and he clearly cheated. I still remember the days when the F1 broadcaster making comments about how great he was, BUT he always did questionable things just to win, regardless the consequence... the funny thing is, his team was in on the scam with him.

There is probably not a more competitive F1 era than 70/80's. If a person can win multiple championship, that's an amazement by it self. Piquet over MS, absolutely, he did not race under team orders, he had some of the greatest drivers of all time as his competitors, AND he won three championship with all that handicaps. Even though MS was faster during the early 90's, let's not forget Piquet was already done. If I remember correctly, he was over 40 years old when he retired.

As for MS, I have never seen any one who tried to cheat over and over, year after year. He had absolutely no class or shame when he is in a race car. What MS had with Beneton and Ferrari was a one way ticket to championship without internal challenge. What kind of sportsmanship does MS have when his team mates were required to make ways for him at either opening or the final laps? I still remember when MS broke his leg during British GP, his team mate Eddy Irvine had the chance to win the championship, Ferrari still made him let MS win the races when he returned the same season. Even though Eddy Irvine had a good shot if he received help from MS.

Oh by the way, people didn't even know Senna donated millions of dollars to help the poor kids of Brazil until he died; what have MS done? After all, the title of this thread is "Who was better."

Therefore, here is when the word "Passion" matters. Senna is a person who cares about his surrounding; his team crew, his family, his country. All MS wanted is to win at all cost, including anything immoral.

As I have indicated in the past, MS will most likely to classified as the greatest driver of all time because 10 years from now, only what's on the paper matters.

 

[Klayton]

Ah the haters.
Last time I checked Schumacher donated double-digit mio US$ to tsuanami victims and unesco children funds. And those are only the donations that are known of because they were public. Not to mention his endless campaigns against driving under the influence, drugs overall etc.

I could now list how Senna was disqualified for assisted victories or bringing down other drivers or how he didn't get his license and was banned half a year for manipulation including some hefty fee. But I leave it to you digging up uncomfortable facts about two outstanding drivers

 

[Ibn Rushd]

That is pretty tough....They're both really good drivers.

Although i want to vote for Senna....MS just got into biking racing and is kicking some serious ass....So i don't know...it's too close to call!

Of course 10 years from now people will remember MS...but those who are racing fans, they won't hesitate to mention Senna with Schumacher.


Senna had a hand in making what was arguably a very underpowered sports car compete with the likes of Ferrari.

Enough said.

 

[BD]

Ah the haters.
Last time I checked Schumacher donated double-digit mio US$ to tsuanami victims and unesco children funds. And those are only the donations that are known of because they were public. Not to mention his endless campaigns against driving under the influence, drugs overall etc.

I could now list how Senna was disqualified for assisted victories or bringing down other drivers or how he didn't get his license and was banned half a year for manipulation including some hefty fee. But I leave it to you digging up uncomfortable facts about two outstanding drivers

His endless, not endless campaigns against driving under the influence and drugs were imposed uppon him after racing incident penalties!!! Do you even know your history?

I don't hate, I just don't like to give credit to people who don't deserve it.


Old timers understand the "differences" between Senna and FIA president of that Era. Senna wasn't afraid of calling out all the BS FIA was imposing on the teams and the drivers. We all know how fair they can be!!!

BTW, Senna gave away estimated $400 MILLIONS to the poor kids of his country!!! $400 MILLIONS!!!

http://www.formula1.com/teams_and_drivers/hall_of_fame/45/

During races:

People fear Senna because of his skill as a racer.

People fear MS because of his skill as a cheater.


1994 Beneton Ford was caught cheating for having illegal Launch/Traction control; MS also purposely take out Damon Hill after loosing the control of his car during the final race of the season. Which was never punished. They should have stripped their championship points and Championships. How about his collision with Jac Villenuve in 1997, his incident with Mika Hakkanen in 1999, and Monaco incident in 2006? The list goes on and on.

More from Wiki

Controversy

During his long career Schumacher has been involved in several incidents, which have caused considerable controversy. Schumacher has been vilified in the British media for his involvement in title-deciding collisions in 1994 and 1997. German and Italian newspapers have widely condemned his actions in 1997.

Championship deciding collisions

Hill (left) and Schumacher (right) crash at the Flinders Street corner during the 1994 Australian Grand Prix.
Going into the 1994 Australian Grand Prix, the final race of the 1994 season, Schumacher led Damon Hill by a single point in the Drivers' Championship. Schumacher led the race from the beginning with Hill closely following him. On lap 35, Schumacher went off track, hitting a wall with his right side wheels. It is unknown whether Schumacher's car was damaged, as he returned to the track at reduced speed but still leading the race. At the next corner, when Hill attempted a pass on the inside while Schumacher was turning into the corner, Schumacher and Hill collided. Schumacher's car was tipped up onto two wheels and eliminated on the spot. Hill pitted immediately and retired from the race with unrepairable damage. As neither driver scored Schumacher took the title.
Opinion is divided over the incident. British Formula One journalist and author Alan Henry has written that Schumacher was blamed by "many F1 insiders" for the incident, however British Formula One commentator Murray Walker believes it was not a deliberate move. The race stewards judged it a racing accident and took no action against either driver.


Michael Schumacher (red) and Jacques Villeneuve (blue) in the moment of the collision at the Dry Sack corner in the 1997 European Grand Prix at Jerez.
At the 1997 European Grand Prix at Jerez, the last race of the season, Schumacher led another driver, this time Williams' Jacques Villeneuve, by one point in the Drivers' Championship. Although Schumacher and Villeneuve had set the same time during qualifying, the Canadian driver started the race in pole position due to his being the first to set the time. By the first corner of the race, Schumacher was ahead of Villeneuve. On lap 48, Villeneuve passed Schumacher at the Dry Sac Corner. As he did so, Schumacher turned into the Williams, the right-front wheel of Schumacher's Ferrari hitting the left side pod of Villeneuve's car. Schumacher retired from the race immediately while Villeneuve was able to finish the race in the third place, taking four points and so becoming the World Champion.
Two weeks after the race, Schumacher was excluded from the results for the season after a FIA disciplinary hearing disqualified him, finding that his "manoeuvre was an instinctive reaction and although deliberate not made with malice or premeditation. It was a serious error." This made him the only driver in the history of the sport, as of 2007 to be disqualified from a World Championship. Schumacher accepted the decision and admitted having made a mistake.

Other incidents
Two laps from the finish of the 1998 British Grand Prix, Michael Schumacher was leading the race when he was issued a stop-and-go penalty for overtaking a lapped car (Alexander Wurz) under a yellow flag. This penalty involves going into the pit lane and stopping for 10 seconds. But as the penalty was given with fewer than 12 laps remaining, and since it was issued as a handwritten note, the Ferrari team was confused as to whether the penalty was a stop and go penalty or merely a penalty of 10 seconds to be added to Schumacher's race time. The rules state that a driver must serve his penalty within three laps of the penalty being issued, and on the third lap after receiving the penalty, Schumacher turned into the pit lane to serve his penalty. However, this happened to be the last lap of the race, and Ferrari's pit box was located after the start/finish line, meaning that Schumacher finished the race before serving the penalty. The stewards initially resolved that problem by adding 10 seconds to Schumacher's race time, then later rescinded the penalty completely. In the same season, after a race-ending collision whilst trying to lap David Coulthard during the Belgian Grand Prix, Schumacher stormed into the McLaren garage and accused Coulthard of trying to kill him.


Rubens Barrichello makes way for Schumacher at the end of the 2002 Austrian Grand Prix.
Historically, team orders had always been permitted in Formula One. During Schumacher's tenure at Ferrari, the team often employed team orders to benefit one of their drivers over the other. Usually Schumacher, as team leader, benefited. The notable exception came in the 1999 season in which he played a supporting role for Eddie Irvine after missing part of the season with a broken leg. However, at the 2002 Austrian Grand Prix, Schumacher's teammate, Rubens Barrichello, took pole and led the race from the start. In the final metres of the race, the Brazilian driver, under orders from Ferrari, slowed his car to make way for Schumacher to pass and win the race. This angered fans who were watching the race. At the podium ceremony, Schumacher pushed Barrichello onto the top step, and for this disturbance, the Ferrari team incurred a US$1 million fine.[102] Later in the season at the end of the 2002 United States Grand Prix, Schumacher let Barrichello pass in a similar fashion, causing a similar outcry. The FIA subsequently banned "Team orders which interfere with the race result".
Although Schumacher took the pole position during the qualifying for the 2006 Monaco Grand Prix, there was controversy near the end of the session. Schumacher stopped his car in the Rascasse corner, partially blocking the circuit, while his main contender for the season title, Fernando Alonso, was on his qualifying lap. Schumacher stated that he simply locked up the wheels going into the corner and that the car then stalled while he attempted to reverse out.[105] Alonso believed he would have been on pole if the incident had not happened.[106] Schumacher was later stripped of pole position by the race stewards and started the race at the back of the grid.

 

[NSXrebel]

I agree, had Senna not died, he would probably had the record for most Championships and not Schumacher. I was young and didn't follow F1 back then, but from what I have read and seen on video, Ayrton Senna did have tougher competition than what Michael Schumacher had in his day.

 

[BD]

There will always be fans out there ruling for their star.

The truth is, a record is a record, it's on paper, and years from now, that's all that would matter. MS did have a remarkable career, if he didn't pull fast one on people, ended with 5 championships, that would have been a amazing achieve on its own.

Unfortunately, he did what did and did not gain respect from old timers. I guess it is fair to compare MS to Barry Bond, both broke records, but both were questioned. It is heart breaking for people like me to make such a comparison but facts are facts.

 

[Miner]

Easy fellas.

I think we can safely say Vancehu is in the corner of Senna, and others in favor of Schumacher. Neither opinions are right, neither are wrong. They are opinions and quoting selected verses from scripture isn't going to convince folks to change their opinions.

I could mention Jackie Stewart, Jim Clark and even Alain Prost along with Fangio. Stewart and Prost walked away from the sport, Jim Clark passed in a minor league accident. Even The Lion with his heart could be in the mix.

Miner

 

[NSXrebel]

Easy fellas.

I think we can safely say Vancehu is in the corner of Senna, and others in favor of Schumacher. Neither opinions are right, neither are wrong. They are opinions and quoting selected verses from scripture isn't going to convince folks to change their opinions.

I could mention Jackie Stewart, Jim Clark and even Alain Prost along with Fangio. Stewart and Prost walked away from the sport, Jim Clark passed in a minor league accident. Even The Lion with his heart could be in the mix.

Miner

No, you're wrong. Vancehu and all Senna supporters, we are RIGHT.
































:wink:

 

[BD]

Easy fellas.

I think we can safely say Vancehu is in the corner of Senna, and others in favor of Schumacher. Neither opinions are right, neither are wrong. They are opinions and quoting selected verses from scripture isn't going to convince folks to change their opinions.

I could mention Jackie Stewart, Jim Clark and even Alain Prost along with Fangio. Stewart and Prost walked away from the sport, Jim Clark passed in a minor league accident. Even The Lion with his heart could be in the mix.

Miner

The reason I didn't mention the guys from the 70's is because they didn't raced against Senna. MS did.

As I have indicated before, doesn't matter what people's belief, as long as they're happy with who they stand by, more power to them:wink:

 

[ExoticMD]

It's also like asking who's more welcome here: Nick or Tamoske?

That would be a great poll (LOL). Someone start it.

 

[Miner]

The reason I didn't mention the guys from the 70's is because they didn't raced against Senna. MS did.

As I have indicated before, doesn't matter what people's belief, as long as they're happy with who they stand by, more power to them:wink:

Senna and Schu overlapped for too few races, unfortunately. Had Senna not passed at Imola, they would have race each other for 2 or 3 years more than they did.

For a head to head poll, it would be Senna and Prost. And everyone knows Senna was way better.:biggrin:

Miner

 

[NSX-Files]

BTW, Senna gave away estimated $400 MILLIONS to the poor kids of his country!!! $400 MILLIONS!!!

http://www.formula1.com/teams_and_drivers/hall_of_fame/45/

FYI Senna did not give away $400 Million - that figure was his net worth. Of that, he gave "millions" according to the article:

"He loved children and gave millions of his personal fortune (estimated at $400 million when he died) to help provide a better future for the underprivileged in Brazil."

Both Senna and Schumacher were among the best drivers ever. How can anyone say one is better than the other on driving skill alone? Even if you put them in identical cars, one's driving style might give him an advantage over the other while in identical cars of a different make, the other driver might do better. What does that prove?

In 1988, Senna beat his team mate Prost eight wins to seven to take the title. With Senna and Prost in identical cars, 8 wins versus 7 wins, that is clearly not "head and shoulders" dominant over Prost, but most people have the impression that Senna was better than Prost. Senna won 3 titles, 41 races in 162 starts, Prost won 4 titles and 51 races in 200 starts, Schumacher won 7 titles and 91 races in 250 starts. Senna and Prost had win ratios of 25% whereas Schumacher's win ratio is 36%.

Overall, I'd give Schumacher the nod because besides having the obvious driving talent and the results, he also had the ability to lead and inspire a floundering Ferrari team to transform it into the powerhouse it is now.

 

[Mike-san]

I saw the new F-1 magazine yesterday and they have Senna as the #1 driver of all time......

 

[areout]

Both are excellent drivers, but Senna is also the man.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=EOGiguIUyZ4

 

[JonBoy]

I'd have to give the edge to Senna. Add in his wet weather driving capability (amazing!) and I'd give him the nod in a race car.

MS, however, seems to be very fast in whatever he drives, including motorcycles, so maybe he's a better "all around" driver in motorsports.