Track car: the sti just won't do forever... What to get???

[scottjua]

Ok, this isn't for my immediate plans but more like something to look forward to in the next few years plus. I've been tracking my sti since I got it new back in December of 2005, and although I love it and it is rewarding to drive, the costs and realities of lots of track time in the heavy sti do take their toll.

After driving many other cars over the years and some great student cars at the track, I'm now contemplating what would be a good daily driver track car with more emphasis on track duty and reduced wear items costs for track duty.

My first reaction is spec/track prepped miata, but honestly since it would be a car to take out on regular life drives too, that may be a little hardcore and small for me daily (6ft 190lbs). Same with an Elise. I love both and know they're easy on tires and brakes (in the sti I go through pads every 2-3 track days), but the light weight small car trade off is less easy to deal with in life. Not to mention crash worthiness in SUV land. That said too, whatever it would be would be a second car. Not primarily a daily chore car, but would need to serve duty 3-4 or more days of a week... Life depending and may play the role of daily chore car at times.

So what about a c5 Z06??? The notion that consumables are cheap and can be had at napa, is that a reality? What about Porsches? 911? Cayman S?

All used of course. Anything else to consider? S2000, Nsx, etc.

I like the idea of reliable, easy on parts, light-ish weigt, but I know you have to compromise something. I just want more or a planted sports car feel at the track that I get in other cars and something that won't totally destroy my wallet or be prohibitive cost-wise to enjoy on the track or in life. Don't get me wrong I love the bear climbing a tree feel from the sti out of turns, but you know... The grass is always greener and all that.

Mid, rear, front engined doesn't make much difference, awd or rwd is fine.

If anyone is curious more on my car and my journey here: http://www.iwsti.com/forums/gd-membe...ate-defis.html

When I consider a Porsche or NSX, I'm definitely not thinking new-ish, and for me probably about 45K max on spending budget. Granted this would be a few years down the road, and everything will change, but I can't help think about it now of course, and try to mentally plan ahead and get as much info as I can.

I don't think at this point a dedicated track car is a reality, but you never know. I'd love to consider a radical, or something that could be trailered out, but that means having to get a vehicle capable of towing, a trailer, and all the paraphernalia that goes with a track only car. Not in the cards for me I think.

I need something that treads the line like the STi can, but isn't quite so hard on its parts.

It's a conundrum for sure. Fast? Powerful? Hard on brakes... Light, small, hard to live with day to day? OR... not as fast as I am used to. That said... driving Elises and spec Miatas is just as fun on the track as my car (never driven an NSX on track, but plenty on street). They just feel a little anemic on straights... maybe forced induction would solve that.

I find myself rationalizing new parts for the STi, then thinking... save it for the next car at this point. Whatever it will be, will have to driven regularly, so that alone makes some less likely than others.

 

[jond]

Do you just want a car to do HPDEs in or are you looking for some sort of racing?

From what I've been told, you can't drive a car that's doing the real racing to and from the track. Everyone tries it, no one can do it. You get into a small fender bender, and bend the suspension and you're stuck hours away from home.

For HPDEs, all of those will do it. One thing to think about is your risk level. I think a new NSX engine is around $30,000+labor. And finding someone who can do body work on aluminum is hard. A new shell, good luck finding one. If you mess it up, it's going to be FAR from cheap. Probably the same with the Porsche and Lotus.

I've done a lot of HPDEs, and IMO, the most fun is being able to push a car 99% with the knowledge that if you roll it, or blow the engine, you won't shed a tear or lose any sleep at night. IMO, the Miata, S2000, or Z06 would be the best bet from that standpoint. Engines are cheap, entire cars are cheap, etc.
Another car in that line of thought is the Type-R. Race ready from the factory with Honda reliability.

If you're looking for real racing, the spec miata, IMO, is the way to go.

 

[RamVA]

I've owned 5 of those cars and tracked 3 extensively, meaning at least 20 days (S2k, 996C2, Elise). I think if it's HPDE eventually leading to club racing, I'd go with the 996. They are very fast, handle great, and are not very expensive. They can be modded (not "cheaply", but reasonably) to be street/track drivable and there are lots of options for parts. The biggest downside is that Porsche replacement parts are pricey - I spent $15k on a new motor.

It kind of depends on what you're looking for, though. If you want to become a better driver and eventually race, get the Miata, unless speed matters to you. If ONLY speed matters to you, get the Vette. The Elise is probably the most fun, but they are a pain in the nuts to own. The S2k is a more reliable, more practical alternative to that, but requires a lot of mods to get there.

 

[nsx2tall]

... I think a new NSX engine is around $30,000+labor. ...

I'll sell you my NSX engine and the car comes for free. :biggrin: I think the engine is closer to $10k+labor.


scottjua

My opinion is that you already have the right car. The only cars that would be cheaper to drive are a Miata, an old 3-series BMW, or an old Mustang, all of which are less capable than the STI. The C5 Vette is generally faster in stock form, but consumables would be the same price and you can't put a set of tires in the back. 944 would be another choice and has more competition available for it, but it would still be similar in cost per use and would be useless as a daily driver. I wouldn't bother with any other Porsche if you're on a budget.

A brand new short block for the STI is $2k plus heads for $3k. As an extreme example, I beefed up my block to a stage 3 on stock power after blowing up the original engine, and the whole engine include installation labor and tuning was around $12k. An entirely new gear and synchro set for the transmission was $3500 including shipping and installation. That's barely a middle class race budget for any car. Honestly, the only comparable car for track fun AND transportation is an Evo.

However, if you plan on wheel-to-wheel I'd buy a car that can be entered in as many events as possible. I'm a bit disappointed that my STI is PTB for NASA but Super Touring for SCCI especially considering that there are no PTB competitors in the entire midwest. But once you get to this decision, you'll need a track-only car with transportation and it sounds like you're not quite there yet. This is where the miata, bmw, and 944 become superior choices. I don't do wheel-to-wheel yet, but I still made it a consideration.

 

[jond]

I'll sell you my NSX engine and the car comes for free. :biggrin: I think the engine is closer to $10k+labor.

$30k is new from Acura(I asked a few years ago, so it may have changed).
For $9,800 you can get the entry level science of speed rebuild which would be fine as long as it's not damaged too bad.


.

 

[docjohn]

without getting all longwinded....sounds like a well sorted track oriented turbo miata would be fun.Also another track car that started life as a street car is the solstice..it dominates its class at the runnoffs.

 

[RamVA]

My opinion is that you already have the right car.

The big problem with an STI as a track car is AWD.

I started my track life in a B5 S4 Audi. I have had four Audis (all quattro wagons - have a B6 S4 at the moment), and my gf currently drives a WRX (also wagon), and they are all awesome, awesome, and fast cars. I just think they're too easy for a skilled driver on track. They're definitely faster (for a car with similar power and weight), but if you're driving for fun you really want a RWD car.

If budget is an issue, I think the E36 3-series and 944 are great choices.

 

[Dhalsim]

I've done a lot of HPDEs, and IMO, the most fun is being able to push a car 99% with the knowledge that if you roll it, or blow the engine, you won't shed a tear or lose any sleep at night. IMO, the Miata, S2000, or Z06 would be the best bet from that standpoint. Engines are cheap, entire cars are cheap, etc.
Another car in that line of thought is the Type-R. Race ready from the factory with Honda reliability.

If you're looking for real racing, the spec miata, IMO, is the way to go.

I gotta agree with this. Every time I'm on the track in my NSX I think how much more fun it would be if I could push it to the limit not caring if i put it into a wall. Not that I want to put my car into a wall but I would like to be able to dirve at 9/10ths without worrying about wrecking my beautiful NSX.

The guys with the beat up miatas with roll bars in them always seem to be having the most fun. And cheap fun.............

 

[scottjua]

Thanks for all the input so far guys!

 

[lightguy]

If your going the actually race it wheel to wheel a spec miata.
Better yet if you want the real experience Formula Vee or Ford.
Street/track; Porsche GT3 is the only car listed made for the track from the factory.

 

[nsxtasy]

Unless you don't take care of your car - meaning, doing all the scheduled maintenance plus additional stuff like replacing the cooling system hoses and the crankshaft pulley every once in a while - there's no need to be concerned about how much a replacement engine costs.

However, if you somehow need to replace an NSX engine, used ones are readily available, typically selling for $4-6K for the 3.0-liter engine, $8-10K for the 3.2-liter.

 

[scottjua]

If your going the actually race it wheel to wheel a spec miata.
Better yet if you want the real experience Formula Vee or Ford.
Street/track; Porsche GT3 is the only car listed made for the track from the factory.

At this point in my life I don't see me racing wheel to wheel, and if I did, I'm not ballsy enough to want to race open wheel/open cockpit. I'm appreciating life differently these days and like the idea of a closed cockpit and a nice full cage IF I were to race.

I just want something to enjoy when I get my track time for now... racing may come in the future, but unless I'm just awesome and get people to pay for my ride, I don't see any open wheel or budget for front pack racing, let alone the travel that goes with it all within the really near future.

Things change though, and you never know, so I'm not ruling anything out in life, but my goal would be to have a car to enjoy sooner than later.

Can't wait for the first track day of the year in two weeks for me, but I also know I will have to go through 3-4 sets of pads soon too. Ugh....

 

[nsxtasy]

One other consideration has not yet been mentioned. Many groups which hold HPDE events do not allow open-top cars to participate; some not at all, others not without a full roll cage. Some groups won't even let a car with a removable roof panel (e.g. NSX-T) participate. But there are other groups that don't care and will let you drive anything. This is something you will definitely want to consider, especially if you normally drive in events with a group with a restrictive policy. (For example, I do a lot of HPDE track events with BMW CCA, and they do not allow convertibles at all, so an S2000 or Miata would be out of the question.)

 

[Dr.Honda]

Ah, such a familiar story. I think you'll find that C5 vette's are not all that cheap to maintain. Elise/Exiges have very fragile bodywork, $500 shunt in a Miata=$5000 in the Lotus. S2000's are very durable and faster than Miata's, great dual purpose cars. Miata's are clearly the most logical choice financially and very fun to drive on the track, but it is frustrating to get passed in the straights by worse drivers in faster cars. If you just want to do HPDE's and don't care about SCCA or NASA legality, get a cheap Spec Miata, than put a supercharger or turbo on it. You will be able to hang with a lot more expensive cars and won't feel too bad if you do wad it up. Another consideration is an early '90's Mustang tuned for the track. If you want to do both HPDE's and wheel to wheel racing you'll want a car with fenders, hardtop, and all the safety equipment, and big fields to race against,... again, Spec Miata.

 

[Midnight_Raven]

Hm... I know this may sound biased since I own one but what about an MR2 MK2 or MK1. They are really cheap so I don't think you would have to worry about if an accident happens and replacement parts aren't too expensive compared to the NSX, plus you get to keep you MR layout as well.

 

[nsx2tall]

Hm... I know this may sound biased since I own one but what about an MR2 MK2 or MK1. They are really cheap so I don't think you would have to worry about if an accident happens and replacement parts aren't too expensive compared to the NSX, plus you get to keep you MR layout as well.

That's a good suggestion. They can take cheap engine swaps and are really light. The downside is that they're small and can't hold tires.

 

[Carguy!]

Caterhams are great track cars, very inexpensive to maintain and fast!!!