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wheel sizes?
- Thread starter AP1-NA1
- Start date
AP1-NA1 said:
Most likely for the engineers to create more footwell/cabin space when designing the car. It can look nicer too. Staggered wheel sizes have nothing to do with performance. Often one might claim it does but what they're referring to is sidewall size/strength, not necessarily wheel size.
See related thread: http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72432&highlight=staggered+viper
NSXGMS said:
I have to disagree, Stagerred wheels actually helps/prevents understeering, since NSX are midengines they naturally oversteer.Same applies to Porsches, Lamborghinis, and all the mid/rear engine cars run skinny fronts and fat rears. Honda Engineer design it for a reason not just for look. So I say it's a performance upgrade.
Zenky said:
The Mclaren F1, Murcielago, F430, Enzo among others all have uniform wheel sizes and are MR, as does the 02+ NSX. Why would Honda switch philosophies if it were a performance consideration?
Also skinny fronts and fat rears are irrelevant. That's width, not diameter. I'm not talking about tire sidewall height/strength, which can affect performance, particularly at high speeds. I'm talking about wheel diameter. Tires are wide so that the contact patch on the drive wheel(s) is as large as possible. A front-wheel drive drag-racer Civic has skinny rears and fat fronts.
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Murcielago: 245/35ZR-19(fr) 335/30ZR-19(r)NSXGMS said:
F430: 225/35ZR-19(fr) 285/35ZR-19(r)
Enzo: 245/35ZR-19(fr) 345/35ZR-19(r)
Tire sizes above are not uniformed, maybe by rim sizes but the rears tires on those cars above still have larger diameter tires compared to the fronts :smile:
Honda has 02+NSX: 215/40ZR-17(fr) 255/40ZR-17(r)
i dont see any philosophie changes :smile:
I Believe it is for handling reasons.
If they were to put the same size tires on a rear wheel drive car on all four corners it may over steer. also being a rear wheel drive car a bigger contact patch on the rear will allow for more grip to lay the power down.
As we all already know match tires are more common on front wheel drive or 4wheel drive cars. aka: "regular cars" :wink:
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NSXGMS said:
Isn't the suspension get's upgraded/different each generation of the NSXs? Please corect me if I am wrong. Maybe has something to do with that. Great suspension ugrades improves the handling of the car.
But my whole point is staggered wheels gives a performance benefits for mid-engines and rwd vehicle. It's not just for look. (Although they look really sweet and aggressive)
amgnsx said:
Every tire you have mentioned fits a 19 inch diameter rim. (NSX 17") They are all uniform in diameter. Staggered wheels refer to diameter.Diameter: a straight line passing through the center of a circle or sphere and meeting the circumference or surface at each end.
Zenky said:
You are wrong. :smile: Aside from the addition of a LSD and more effective ABS and TCS and a 2mm toe-in spec change in 1993. The 1999 Zanardi edition NSX is the only exception with stiffer springs, shocks and sways.
Edit: there have been some changes in the suspension over the years addressing the changes in the vehicle, not necessarily performance-enhancing. For example spring rates have increased steadily from 1991-1997 but primarily due to reinforcing the structure from changes brought on by the addition of the Targa top.
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NSXGMS said:
Diameter: a straight line passing through the center of a circle or sphere and meeting the circumference or surface at each end.
so is the NSX 17" front and rear
so where did Honda chage it?
are u reffering to the pre 2002/ 16-17inch wheel NSX's? oops my bad . i misread your post :biggrin:
NSXGMS said:
Staggered wheels = Diameter & width. It's just a common sense having a wider rears than front if you have RWD for traction (again performace). More rubber you have on the ground the better.
I'm not going to details about civic using fat front, skinny back yada yada, but it's seems like you are getting the idea. Why you think most of them do that? Why you thing Real Drag racer have a Staggered wheels setups. Answer: To control Traction/understeer = better time slips.
And looking at the "FAQ" > "Supension" Each year NSX have a different spring rate and weight. That explains it.
Zenky said:
Staggered wheels do not have anything at all to do with width. Period.
I can have a 335mm wide tire on a 15 inch rim if I want. My 17 inch rim tire is only 255mm wide. Smaller diameter, but wider tire. I'm not sure you understand the concept of diameter.
Also from the FAQ:
Why Are The Factory Wheels Different Sizes?
With mid-engine design and lightweight aluminum construction there is no need for more tire at the front of the car. Honda's goal was to minimal mass for this vehicle, and that the "vicious circle" of weight works in both directions (heavier vehicles require a bigger engine, which weighs more, then bigger brakes, which weigh more etc.). Using a smaller front wheel also means more room in the interior footwells, a common area of complaint with other sports cars (wheels intrude into footwell meaning pedals are skewed off straight ahead).
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Zenky said:
Where do you see this? Here?:
This shows how the suspension has changed relative to changes in the structure of the car, IOW, how the suspension has coped with the introduction of the T, 97 changes and Zanardi while also comparing the Type-S, R and Zanardi. The 2005 suspension is identical to the 1997 suspension. The reason it changed at all was due to changes in other areas of the car. It hasn't "evolved" as you define it.
Whoa! this turn to a whole different topic. Let's now focus on what you just said that there's no performance effect whatsoever and they just simply for look.
My whole point was "Staggered wheels" is an performance upgrade. I'll say it for the last time that this set up is true to decrease understeer. This effectively raising the rear end more allowing more dominating weight transfer to the front which inturn can help traction in. It's a common sense to have a wider wheels when you have this set up for your car especially having a RWD car. Therefore, staggered wheels = diameter and Width(this is common sense really.
I drove an NSX with the same wheel size set up and one with staggered set up @ at the track. The difference in handing very different.
My whole point was "Staggered wheels" is an performance upgrade. I'll say it for the last time that this set up is true to decrease understeer. This effectively raising the rear end more allowing more dominating weight transfer to the front which inturn can help traction in. It's a common sense to have a wider wheels when you have this set up for your car especially having a RWD car. Therefore, staggered wheels = diameter and Width(this is common sense really.
I drove an NSX with the same wheel size set up and one with staggered set up @ at the track. The difference in handing very different.
Zenky said:
Remember--I am talking strictly about DIAMETER--in inches--nothing else. If you are referring to "staggered" being (ex: 17x7.5) /17x8.5 then we are not on the same page.
You are ASSUMING larger diameter equals wider and I am not. Of course a performance car is going to have wider wheels/tires on the drive wheels. But diameter remains uniform at 17". Please don't connect the two--they are unrelated.
The 2005 NSX comes with IDENTICAL front tire diameters. If keeping the wheel diameters staggered improved perfomance why would they have ever deviated from 16"/17" or 17"18"? I have pointed out the suspension absolutely HAS NOT changed since 1997 when the wheels were still 16/17. So why are they uniform now? Because it does not matter. Amazingly a 2005 seems to put up the exact same track times as the 1997
Zenky said:
Raising the car's body has nothing at all to do with performance other than body roll.Mass reduction in the front is always a consideration but that is not necessarily determined by wheel diameter.
Tire width has little to do with where the engine is located. It's where the drive wheels are. A Supra is FE with RWD and the rear tires are fat...
Especially w/ RWD...
no--a FWD drag civic has fat front tires because those are the drive wheel(s)! Please remember: the only reason tires are wider is for a larger contact patch on the DRIVE WHEEL(S).
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I think to properly answer the OP's question we have to understand whether he meant staggered diameters or staggered widths.
AP1?
AP1?
NSXGMS said:Remember--I am talking strictly about DIAMETER--in inches--nothing else. If you are referring to "staggered" being (ex: 17x7.5) /17x8.5 then we are not on the same page.
You are ASSUMING larger diameter equals wider and I am not. Of course a performance car is going to have wider wheels/tires on the drive wheels. But diameter remains uniform at 17". Please don't connect the two--they are unrelated.
The 2005 NSX comes with IDENTICAL front tire diameters. If keeping the wheel diameters staggered improved perfomance why would they have ever deviated from 16"/17" or 17"18"? I have pointed out the suspension absolutely HAS NOT changed since 1997 when the wheels were still 16/17. So why are they uniform now? Because it does not matter. Amazingly a 2005 seems to put up the exact same track times as the 1997
Mass reduction in the front is always a consideration but that is not necessarily determined by wheel diameter.
Tire width has little to do with where the engine is located. It's where the drive wheels are. A Supra is FE with RWD and the rear tires are fat...
Especially w/ RWD...
What is your arguments here? Fine, understood I mentioned the width of the tires since I thought everyone would know what Staggered wheels are, smaller front, bigger rear.
So let's start over and answer this. Do you have any proof that the set up is just for looks and no benefits on performance? Got any video, time slip, track times?
Please show us any , but if you don't have any don't even bother responding.
02#154 said:
Staggered=DIAMETER and WIDTH.
According to NSXGMS is just a diameter of the wheels and has nothing to do with the width which makes me worry a little, whether for me to continue debating with his arguments.
But I am still waiting for his proof that there's no benefits.
I don't usually don't go this far, but I can't afford someone sharing his knowledge that doesn't have any proof.
This place is a great resource for anything NSX and only right information here should be shared.Let him convince me that he is right about his claim and I'll prove him that he got it all wrong *waiting
Zenky said:
Staggered diameter isn't for performance! Which means you are not going to have a difference! I'm telling you you can't find a difference. You prove there is a difference.
02#154 said:
Correct.
My only statement addresses diameter. 16" front, 17" front--doesn't matter. Width does matter but has nothing to do with diameter.
We're talking about 2 different things. I am not questioning that staggered width matters, only the diameter.
Allow me to clarify if "size" referred to anything but diameter previously.
Zenky said:
Since the 02+ NSX wheels have the same diameter and different sizes why do you continue to relate the unrelated?
The width and the diameter are totally, 100% separate figures that are not directly related to each other.
A 15", 16", 17" or 18" rim can all have the same width. A 15" rim could have many different widths.
I agree 100% width alters performance. I only take issue with you're stating diameter, specifically, has anything to do with performance. You made the ridiculous assertion that it was because the front of the car is lower.
Zenky said:
s14_tat said:
Common sense?
Zenky, you're just not being specific enough and seem to be generalizing with words like "bigger" and "smaller." You're confusing me and drawing connections to diameter and width that aren't there.
I'm guilty also because I wasn't specific enough about my referring to staggered diameter only. I know what you're saying about width and you are correct.
IMHO, staggered could mean either or both. You can prolly find a lot of examples of people using the term stagger here on Prime where they're talking about diameters.
Then again, a lot of muscle car guys will refer to their staggered setups, referring to huge rubber in back and relatively speaking narrow tires up front, though they're running 15" wheels front and back.
J
Then again, a lot of muscle car guys will refer to their staggered setups, referring to huge rubber in back and relatively speaking narrow tires up front, though they're running 15" wheels front and back.
J
