Why not just upgrade rotors and brakelines?

[Prudeone]

I dont understand why you have to upgrade perfectly good calipers to brake better. I can understand upgrading brakelines, rotors and pads. Has anyone had any experience doing this instead of the ridiculuosly costly brake kits with calipers?

Some of these cost 10 grand thats more then 1/3 the price of my car. Boogle

I did do a forum search and there is not any worthwhile discussion of this subject. I saw that comptech sells just rotors for a reasonable price but then says not for racing next to them. Isn't live a rat race anyway?

Thank you in advance,

Prude

 

[vincentvtec]

I put a pair of Spoon Calipers with Endless CC-M pad on my 93 NSX. It works very good without any problem. Just upgrade 97 & up NSX rotors only.

 

[matteni]

I have upgraded the fluid, lines (stainless), pads, rotors and have installed cooling ducts/removed the rain sheilds.

I am very happy with my track braking right now.

Also - with many of the brake kits you need to budget for new wheels to fit over the calipers and may have to loose your e-brake or deal with brake proportioning.

I know we have some real hotshoes that would benifit from the big brake kits over my setup - but I doubt 99% would gain meaningfull lap time differences. I know a lot of people like the look of bigger rotors and that factors in as well.

Good luck / YMMV.

------------------
Nick M

91' Red/Black with Many Mods
99' Honda Odyssey with Many Kids

 

[Ponyboy]

I've been using the stock calipers with this "upgraded" setup and it works great:

- Dali's stainless lines
- Aerorotors on the front
- Motul 600
- Dali's cooling ducts
- Carbotech Panther +
- Kumho Ecsta V700

The biggest brake improver is going to be your tires. What good is an awesome set of pads if they overpower your tire's traction?

The big advantage of BBK's is that they can absorb a lot more heat and are therefore a lot more resistant to fade. If you can use he above setup and keep it cool enough for the pads and fluid then you're gold Prudeone...gold I tell ya.

The above setup works very well (sans Aerorotors, didn't have them at the time). I had a professional Porsche GT3 driver take my NSX for a couple of spins around my local track and he was pretty surprised at how good the NSX brakes were. This after driving a couple P-cars and a Ruf.

But my crystal ball says that a BBK kit is still in my future. . .

 

[Chuck]

Originally posted by Prudeone:
I dont understand why you have to upgrade perfectly good calipers to brake better. I can understand upgrading brakelines, rotors and pads. Has anyone had any experience doing this instead of the ridiculuosly costly brake kits with calipers?

Prude

BBKs are not just for stopping power. Once you start using track tires, you can utilize the extra braking power. Larger rotors also dissipate more heat thus allowing you to "abuse" the brakes longer. The other big advantage I have with my Porsche BBK is that I have 4 years on my rotors (10-12 track events per year). They were cut once after two years. I'm in the process of replacing them now. Now at a replacement cost of $216 (at list) per rotor, I feel in the long run the original cost of my kit ($2,600) is more then covered in replacement cost of stock stuff over the same time period. Oh, I also use stock front Porsche pads and these cost $92 a set. Long term, the Porsche BBK was a great investment considering I was going through stock or aftermarket rotors to the tune of 2 sets per season minimum and pads every other track event. Brakes are the last thing on my mind when I'm at the track!

 

[nsxtasy]

Prudeone, I agree with you. And I do 6-10 track events every year.

First of all, we're only talking about front brakes. I have never had any problems whatsoever with the rear brakes. When it comes time to replace the pads, I use whatever I'm using in front. My rear rotors seem to go on and on forever (and yes, I've had the thickness checked).

Here's what I've got up front:

- Carbotech Panther Plus pads (just switched from RM Racing pads; looking forward to trying DS3000 from Cobalt in the near future)
- Powerslot rotors on the front (have a set of Stoptech aerorotors that will go on after this set is ready for replacement)
- Motul RBF 600 fluid
- Yokohama A032R tires
- REAL cooling ducts, that run from the front air dam to the rotors

I had had problems at one time in the past with brake shudder, but that was with the stock setup, before I had this configuration put in. Now, I don't have any problems with shudder whatsoever. The brake rotors eventually develop cracks due to track use, but they last 8-12 track events, which is just fine. And I typically get ~4 track events to a set of pads, which is fine, too. Pads and rotors are consumables, that you expect to replace from time to time - and this gives you the chance to try different kinds and see what works best for you.

There is absolutely no need for stainless brake lines. The stock lines are more than adequate.

While I wouldn't mind having a big brake setup, there are significant downsides. One is the purchase cost, of course. Another is the wheels, and another is the tires. I have a bunch of sets of wheels for my track tires, since used OEM 15"/16" sets can be had so inexpensively. If I get a big brake setup, I would have to get multiple sets of wheels. Plus, track tires are very difficult to find for the larger size wheels that clear the big brake kits.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 23 November 2002).]

 

[Chuck]

Originally posted by nsxtasy:
Prudeone, I agree with you. And I do 6-10 track events every year.

There is absolutely no need for stainless brake lines. The stock lines are more than adequate.

.]

I never like to disagree with Ken because he always is very good at defending his statements. Aside from previously stated benefits of stainless brake lines, the one I benefit I like best is the ability to allow me to change rear pads without disconnecting the parking brake line from the caliper. The stainless line seems to allow more room to remove the rear caliper when changing the rear pads, thus allowing me to not have to reinstall that pesky parking brake line pin. YMMV

 

[sjs]

I may have missed it in a quick scan of posts, but I think that an important part of the answer to his original question was missed.

New rotors to work with stock calipers can help, but not by a huge amount because they are the same size or very close to it. Some may cool a little better, which is important at the track, and some may last a little longer, but the benefits are likely to be modest. Rotors of greater diameter allow better stopping largely because they have more "leverage" since the caliper is further from the center. Their added surface area for cooling and greater mass for heat absorption also come into play.

So, your best budget kit might be big rotors with brackets to relocate stock calipers. But then you still have wheel & tire issues described by nsxtasy.

I would agree that SS break lines are somewhat overrated. They can make the pedal feel firmer but that’s not the same as sopping better. People will say that they make it easier to modulate the brakes and such but I’ve never found that to be a big deal.

 

[Lud]

In my opinion the big brake kits are superior in every way except $ to stock.

And as Chuck pointed out, some of that $ can be recouped over time in reduced "operating" costs because consumables last longer. You also spend less time messing with your brakes, and I think to most of us our time is worth something.

As for why to upgrade calipers - primarily so you can have bigger calipers with bigger pads. Big calipers handle more heat better as well.

Bigger rotors give you more heat sink, last longer, and move the friction point out further from the center which gives them better leverage and a lot more swept surface area.

Stainless lines are not an upgrade I would do if I were keeping mostly stock brakes, but aftermarket lines are required by some (most? all?) of the big brake kits and Comptech includes stainless lines with their kit, so that is what I have.

Some of the brake kits will work with stock wheels. Others, including mine, require aftermarket wheels. I and many others with the Comptech big brake kits run 17/18 wheels but you only need to run 17/17 to clear the brake kit. There is a decent seletion of track tires available in the 17/17 sizes, and you can indeed also get several track tires in the 18" rear sizes if you desire.

Going along with my dislike of the stock wheels... I prefer larger open-spoke design wheels like the Tecnos, and I think the car looks absolutely terrible with upsized wheels over the tiny stock brakes (esp. in the rear). So part of it is also cosmetic, but it is important to me. And given the amount of time and money most club members spend pampering their cars, I think being happy with the way the car looks is important to most people here.

It's also ridiculously easy to replace pads with the big Brembo kit. It takes less time to change the pads than to remove and reinstall the wheel.

Could I get by with a smaller brake setup? Absolutely. This kit is better than I will probably ever need it to be, and that is the point. I used to spend time fussing around with my brakes - different pads, different rotors, different fluids, etc. I got them to the point where they were pretty good, but I know if I got faster at the track I would have to start fussing around again, because the faster guys had problems with setups similar to mine. Now I NEVER even THINK about brakes other than to inspect them for problems and watch pad and rotor wear. Like the rest of the car, the brakes are now better than I will probably ever be so they are a non-issue. That is what I want. I enjoy driving my car, not tinkering with it. To me that is worth $.

[This message has been edited by Lud (edited 23 November 2002).]

 

[Chuck]

Originally posted by Lud:
[B Like the rest of the car, the brakes are now better than I will probably ever be so they are a non-issue. QUOTE]

That's the best quote yet! Well said Lud, I'll have to remember that one.

 

[docjohn]

Folks get big brakes for looks or performance or both.After reading through these posts its easy to see that the stock calipers can be helped along.There is no doubt that some folks like Ken can do mucho track days and are happy.Personaly I did the same for two seasons and finally realized the brakes were still a week link in my pursuit of lower times,so I enlarged (remember that kids cartoon the (transformers!)I now don't fade and can induce abs at will depending on pad choice.The other point is with big brakes; there are more pad choices,but these reasons are valid only if you intend do push the car at the track often.With that said some of the faster guys at xpo ,and with superchargers had stock calipers and were jamming!

 

[nsxtasy]

Lots of good points brought up above.

And Chuck is right - changing the rear pads with the stock setup is a PITA. (I think Chuck was around when I was changing mine one time at Mid-Ohio.)

I would like to hear which track tires folks are using with 17" and 18" wheels. I am not doubting that there might be some, I just want to know what's out there besides the hard-to-obtain Pirelli P-Zero C and the quick-wearing Hoosier R3S03.

Also keep in mind that you can always follow the strategy of "start small, and get bigger only if you need to". In other words, try doing the cheap upgrades first - pads, rotors, fluid - all of which are consumables that you're going to be replacing anyway, so there's nothing lost in trying out different kinds. And ducts, which help regardless of setup. Then, if you find that you're still having heat-related problems - (even the stock setup will give you more stopping power than any track tires can use when the car is cold) - you can consider a big brake kit upgrade. If you find you don't need anything more than rotors and pads and fluid and ducts, you've saved a whole lot of money. (You can buy lots and lots and lots of rotors - probably way more than you'll ever use - for the cost of a big brake kit and two sets of big wheels.)

 

[Chuck]

Originally posted by nsxtasy:
Lots of good points brought up above.


I would like to hear which track tires folks are using with 17" and 18" wheels. I am not doubting that there might be some, I just want to know what's out there besides the hard-to-obtain Pirelli P-Zero C and the quick-wearing Hoosier R3S03.

I'm using the Kumho Ecsta V700 235/40 17 and 285/30 18. These tires really surprised me. Very light, very predictable grip on the track and extremely comfortable street ride. All that and very attractively priced. Almost too good to be true.

 

[nsxtasy]

Thanks, Chuck.

That reminds me of one more downside of the big brake kits. The larger wheels and tires prevent you from fitting all four track wheels and tires inside the car, so if you want to use your track tires, you're stuck driving on them between home and the track. That may be okay for tracks that are close to home, not so okay for tracks that are further away.

Other track tires and sizes that folks are using?

 

[NSXTC]

OK, here is "the" article I think you may have missed!

http://www.nsxhelp.com/diy2/Real-World%20Brake%20Upgrades.htm

Originally posted by Prudeone:
...I did do a forum search and there is not any worthwhile discussion of this subject....

------------------
All My NSX'es Live in Texas

 

[docjohn]

The best tire choices for the drive to and on the track come in a 17' size all round.235/40/17 f 275/40/17 r allow a choice of yoko ao32r,toyo ra-1.the p-zero-c only comes in a 225/45/17f and requires removal of plastic liner-not good idea,as I am finding;debris collects along the door sills and the fenders are dented from the inside,a reverse ding !The new pirelli rossos may provide new sizes and we are all waiting for more sizes in the mich sport cups.I have not reserched Kumo sizing because I heard they did'nt last too long.same with goodridge r-1.

 

[DanO]

Originally posted by Prudeone:
I dont understand why you have to upgrade perfectly good calipers to brake better.

Other than for cosmetics, there is no reason to upgrade the calipers for street use. At the track, one can get by with the OEM calipers quite well to a certain point. At this point, one has to wrestle with the OE setup by keeping the brakes in top shape all the time (fresh fluid, fresh rotors and pads) and use good heel-toe technique for maximum engine braking. Even with a good, fresh OE setup, the brakes can still fade if abused or pushed really hard. Before I went “big brake”, brakes were on my mind before the track event, in the paddock, on the track and after the track event. After I went “big brake”, pads, rotors and fluid were not an issue and were no longer a hassle at the track or preparing for events. But the hassle was replaced with figuring out how to properly adjust the brake bias and relearn how to drive the car with tires being the limiting factoring in stopping as opposed to the brakes (I’m still trying to figure that out).

Anyway, there IS a significant difference between the “big brakes” and OE brake setup in terms of how the car performs on the track, but it’s up to the nut behind the wheel to take advantage of it. In The Skip Barber Racing School’s “Going Faster: Mastering the Art of Race Driving” it states that late braking has the least significance in terms of lap time relative to other techniques such as driving the proper line and applying the throttle early in the turn.

.02
DanO