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Winter Driving Advice

Joined
4 January 2007
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Location
DFW/Conesus Lake NY
I have an S4 that I've owned for 5 years that is used for winter duty--it's been excellent. Recently, I've toyed with the idea of using my M3 in the winter. I've read reviews on M3 forums that people have had success with the M3 in winter conditions with a snow tires. I would probably end up spending $1K for a nice set. I live in a snowy region (western NY) so good winter reliability is needed and I have a steep driveway. I want to get non-studded tires because studs are horrible in the dry and limit your speeds.

If the M3 is successful in snow, I would sell my Audi--feel like I'm "done" with it now and recoup some money as well as have one less car on the insurance/free up some driveway space. Will I be wasting a $1K on this experiment? Will I regret selling a great winter performing Quattro? Please advise.
 
I want to get non-studded tires because studs are horrible in the dry and limit your speeds.
Also note that in most winter conditions, today's modern "studless ice and snow winter tires" give better traction than studdable tires with studs installed.

If the M3 is successful in snow, I would sell my Audi--feel like I'm "done" with it now and recoup some money as well as have one less car on the insurance/free up some driveway space. Will I be wasting a $1K on this experiment? Will I regret selling a great winter performing Quattro? Please advise.
Will you be wasting $1K? No. At worst, you can always re-sell the winter wheels/tires and get much of your money back. (Note, though, that you'll want to get an extra set of wheels, so you don't have to get your tires re-mounted and rebalanced twice a year.

Will you regret selling a great winter performing Quattro? You're the one who says you feel like you're done with it. Which sounds to me like the answer is no.

It sounds like your real question is, are you taking a big step down in winter traction by moving from a Quattro to an M3 with studless winter tires. The answer is almost certainly no if the Quattro has all-seasons on it. If it has studless winter tires, then you're taking a small but possibly significant step down. Does that help?
 
It sounds like your real question is, are you taking a big step down in winter traction by moving from a Quattro to an M3 with studless winter tires. The answer is almost certainly no if the Quattro has all-seasons on it. If it has studless winter tires, then you're taking a small but possibly significant step down. Does that help?

Thanks nsxtasy. Yeah that's my real question--how significant is that step? I know the only way to really find out is to try out some winters on the M but short of that, looking for some advice.
 
It's definitely worth trying if you can consolidate down. For years I had awd audis for year round and eventually switched over to rwd v8 Mercedes (only because the 2 door coupe models I wanted were only offered in rwd). I've now been driving v8 rwd 300hp+ cars every winter in Ny with no regrets. Traction control many say helps although I find myself consistently shutting it off in the snow. Good blizzack or winter tires are a must and also a couple bags of sand in the trunk for traction isn't a bad idea either. I don't go out exploring during monster storms but have no problems getting to and from work during and out for necessities. I live on a road with a very steep hill and as long as you keep momentum going you should have no issues. Hope this helps!
 
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When I lived in Michigan I tried using a Infiniti G35 coupe (RWD) in the wintertime. With the OEM tires it was completely undriveable as it would lose traction with even just a dusting of snow on the pavement. Actually, it was so bad that on the very first snowfall I pulled into the first tire shop on the road I was driving and had them install snow tires on the spot.

Even with the snow tires the RWD G35 was not a very confidence inspiring for the wintertime. It was driveable, but the combination of the RWD and horsepower often surpassed the traction provided by the snow tires. Based on my "job requirement" for 100% availability on call at the hospital regardless of the weather the G35 just didn't cut it. Many times I was leaving the house in the middle of the night before the plow trucks could clear our neighborhood or even the local lanes. Getting stuck or taking a snow day was not an option.

After just 1 season I traded the G35 in on an SH-AWD Acura RL. In fact I compared them back to back in an abandoned unplowed snow covered shopping center parking lot when I was considering the trade. The stock tire AWD RL outperformed the G35 w/ snows hands down, no contest. The RL is an absolute revelation in the snow! And after adding snow tires on the RL it was incredible! I was easily passing SUVs on the winter roads. My wife bought a G35x AWD sedan which performed admirably as well. Just as with the RL the comparison between the G35 coupe RWD and G35x sedan AWD was night and day... (and that is comparing apples to apples!)

So in my opinion there is no comparison between RWD and AWD when it comes to traction in the snow, regardless of tires. If you are in a position where your local snow removal is reliable and your commute only occurs during time when the streets are cleared then it may not be as much of an issue as it was in my case.

Now, happily, my wife and I have moved to Tampa Bay so our snow driving days are over... I sometimes miss my old G35 coupe but I am consoled by the fact that I can take the NSX out of the garage all year round!
 
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As someone who has winter driven my NSX with winter tires for the past 11 years, a point that you may be missing in the comparisons is whether or not the vehicle in question also has a limited slip differential (LSD) or not. The NSX does .. and probably the M3 as well .. but I bet your average G35 probably doesn't (my wife's TL doesn't). I don't know if anyone has ever done any research on the relative merits of LSD RWD vs snow tires vs AWD but personally I believe LSD contributes a lot. Having 60% of the weight doesn't hurt either .. but you're not going to have that with the M3. I don't think you clarified whether the Audi had winter tires or not but I remember reading a Car & Driver article years ago where they said they'd take FWD/winters over AWD/all seasons any day. I've never driven an AWD in the winter but my NSX has been at least as good as any other FWD/winter combo I've ever driven .. but my winter tires are one series larger for slightly better ground clearance (about 3/4"). Ruins the look .. but I've yet to be stuck and I've levelled lots of drifts.
As Ken said, an inexpensive spare set of wheels can be a good investment and save wear and tear on the summer rims .. but they may be hard to come by for a BMer especially in larger wheel sizes which may be mandated by the M3's brakes. And maintaining compatibility with today's tire pressure monitors can be a headache too.

- - - Updated - - -

Also note that in most winter conditions, today's modern "studless ice and snow winter tires" give better traction than studdable tires with studs installed.
Ken, that surprises me... and I've thought that I'd look into studdable next time around. What's your source? I know that they're considerably noisier so you may not want them if you do lots of road trips on mostly bare pavement.
 
an inexpensive spare set of wheels can be a good investment and save wear and tear on the summer rims .. but they may be hard to come by for a BMer especially in larger wheel sizes which may be mandated by the M3's brakes. And maintaining compatibility with today's tire pressure monitors can be a headache too.
There are several places to look for extra sets of wheels. For new wheels, the Tire Rack may have steelies or inexpensive aftermarket wheels. And you can often find used wheels on eBay and on car-part.com (the website used by most large junkyards).


Also note that in most winter conditions, today's modern "studless ice and snow winter tires" give better traction than studdable tires with studs installed.
Ken, that surprises me... and I've thought that I'd look into studdable next time around. What's your source?
Here are two sources:

Reference 1
Reference 2
 
It's definitely worth trying if you can consolidate down.

Consolidating down is exactly what I am looking to do.

Based on my "job requirement" for 100% availability on call at the hospital regardless of the weather the G35 just didn't cut it. Many times I was leaving the house in the middle of the night before the plow trucks could clear our neighborhood or even the local lanes. Getting stuck or taking a snow day was not an option.
!

Same here. I can't afford to be stranded.

As someone who has winter driven my NSX with winter tires for the past 11 years, a point that you may be missing in the comparisons is whether or not the vehicle in question also has a limited slip differential (LSD) or not. The NSX does .. and probably the M3 as well ..

The M3 has LSD and people say it really helps.
 
As someone who has winter driven my NSX with winter tires for the past 11 years, a point that you may be missing in the comparisons is whether or not the vehicle in question also has a limited slip differential (LSD) or not. The NSX does .. and probably the M3 as well .. but I bet your average G35 probably doesn't (my wife's TL doesn't). I don't know if anyone has ever done any research on the relative merits of LSD RWD vs snow tires vs AWD but personally I believe LSD contributes a lot.

You are correct that not all G35 coupes had an LSD.

However my G35 coupe was fully loaded with the Performance Package that included an LSD. So the presence of he LSD didn't make a difference in my case. It was just not a safe car in the snow.

Again, in my opinion the deciding factor is in how critical it is for you to be able to drive in the snow. If you are able to wait until at least the main roads have been plowed and/or salted or can take a day off in a blizzard then RWD w snows could work. In my case I did not have the leisure to do that and th ability to navigate unplowed streets was a must. Also the snow removal in north suburban Detroit was not the greatest. Thus I found that AWD provided that capability and RWD/LSD/snows did not. Believe me I wanted to keep the G35 coupe but first and foremost I needed to be safe and available 24/7. I already had a garage queen with the NSX and didn't have the space to make the G35 a second.

Furthermore I agree C&D that FWD w snows makes for a capable winter driver as well. I lived through many winters in NewHampshire/Vermont/Illinois/Iowa with a series of FWD Acura Legends on Blizzaks. I think i only got stuck once or twice where i had to resort to pouring sand/salt under the tire or putting a floormat down. My ranking would be AWD+snows > AWD > FWD+snows > FWD >>> RWD+LSD+snows.

Photos:
The G35 in fair weather attire.
infiniti2.jpg


The day I brought home the RL. This is the street in front of my house after the snow crew had made a pass earlier in the morning:
IMG_9158.JPG
 
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imho tires and driver are more important in winter driving than which wheels are powered.
 
e46's are awesome in the snow, they seem to have lots of caster. I could easily (if the conditions were consistant) drift highway speed corners on the way to work (4am no one on the road)
 
Tks Ken. I found the first reference to be useless but the second was interesting. However, because it was mixing brands, I felt it was comparing apples to oranges. However, it did point me to this test which tested a brand of winter tire which is studable and they had test results with and without the studs. With the studs was noticeably better as I would have expected.
 
With several years of driving instruction under my belt, I just want to put this out there for anyone to consider:

What I would be willing to drive on (in) in the winter (ice/snow) has very much to do with how skilled the other drivers are in my area. For example, in NY, I suspect that the drivers are proficient in driving on icy roads. In WA, this is also true. In AZ, however, drivers are absolutely incompetent in the RAIN. Cars flipped over on the side of the road every time it rains, no joke. Not to mention multiple freeway-jamming collisions on any route more than 5 miles.

For this reason, in addition to driving carefully and prudently, I would want to maximize my ability to take evasive action in the event that someone is stupid/incompetent/inexperienced enough to put me at increased risk of being slammed into. So I would keep the Audi for it's AWD traction, and ditch the M3 (if we're talking solely about winter driving... but there are obviously other factors in play for the OP).
 
Tks Ken. I found the first reference to be useless
That's odd, because I consider it the most thorough test I could ever imagine. They did their testing under a variety of rigorously controlled conditions. And its conclusions couldn't be any clearer:

AN OVERVIEW OF STUDDED AND STUDLESS TIRE TRACTION AND SAFETY said:
1. Studded tires produce their best traction on snow or ice near the freezing mark and lose proportionately more of their tractive ability at lower temperatures than do studless or all-season tires.

2. The traction of studded tires is slightly superior to studless tires only under an ever-narrowing set of circumstances. With less aggressive (lightweight) studs being mandated, and with the advent of the new “studless” tire, such as the Blizzak, since the early 1990s, the traction benefit for studded tires is primarily evident on clear ice near the freezing mark, a condition whose occurrence is limited. For the majority of test results reviewed for snow, and for ice at lower temperatures, studded tires performed as well as or worse than the Blizzak tire. For those conditions in which studded tires provided better traction than studless tires, the increment usually was small.

3. The precise environmental conditions under which studded tires provide a traction benefit are relatively rare. The maximum frictional gain (in comparison to nonstudded (not studless) tires) is found for new studded tires on smooth ice, where they have been shown to provide up to 100 percent gain in certain tests. However, the relative frictional gain of studded tires diminishes or becomes negative on roughened ice, as the temperature drops, as the studs wear, or if the comparison is made with studless tires.
Of course, you're welcome to believe something you apparently just want to believe, even though it's totally disproved by two different sets of tests conducted under rigorously controlled conditions. I think it's just plain silly. And furthermore, I can tell you that my experience using both studded tires and studless tires in forty Chicago winters confirms what those tests are telling you. I would never, ever choose studded winter tires over studless winter tires. Studded tires just aren't as good in winter cold, compared with Blizzaks, X-Ice, and similar tires.

Of course, here in Chicago, it gets pretty cold; half our winters it gets down to -9F (-23C) or colder, when the studless tires are far better. Maybe it doesn't get all that cold where you are. But I can tell you right now, if you're in a winter climate that gets cold and you're used to studless winter tires with good tread depth, and you switch to studded tires, you're probably going to be disappointed when you find that they don't like frigid temperatures. They can also be pretty darn noisy when the pavement is dry, worse than studless tires - not that that's what you get winter tires for anyway, but still.

However, it did point me to this test which tested a brand of winter tire which is studable and they had test results with and without the studs. With the studs was noticeably better as I would have expected.
But that test doesn't compare them against studless ice and snow tires, which, as noted in both of the previous references, give much better traction in most winter conditions than studdable winter tires with studs installed.

You can ask the guys at Tire Rack what they say. They'll almost certainly tell you the same thing, especially if you talk to their folks who did their ice testing or tried various tires out on their test track in winter. In any case, it's your money; get whatever tires you want.
 
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Ken .. I know you're one of the most informed tire guys on Prime and although I've had probably 25k+ miles of winter driving experience with the NSX (currently using X-ice), I'm still trying to keep abreast of improvements in this area .. including studdable winter tires which certainly weren't available to me 12 years ago that I know of. Now maybe this is either where you and I don't agree .. or maybe it's just a misunderstanding on my part.

I've been driving in winter climates for 40 years just like you .. and on studded and non-studded winter tires. Actually I do live in a location that is colder than Chicago and I'm well aware that studs work best when the temperature is closer to freezing. But in that older context "winter tires" usually meant a tire with aggressive lug patterns that was good in snow .. and probably no better on ice. When I hear "winter tires" now, I think of the new generation open cell design pioneered by Blizzak with a softer grippier compound .. which I also equate to being an "ice and snow tire". So I'm confused by your statement that the Tire Rack test I provided the link to "doesn't compare them (General Altimax Arctic - with and without studs) against ice and snow tires". Do you not consider the Firestone Winterforce and Pirelli Winter Carving Edge to be "ice and snow tires"? Even without studs, the Altimax wins .. which just proves to me that some tires are better than others. Maybe they're all just "snow tires". Is there a special symbol/designation that makes it an "ice and snow tire"

That's odd, because I consider it the most thorough test I could ever imagine. They did their testing under a variety of rigorously controlled conditions. And its conclusions couldn't be any clearer:
I probably should have included some comments about why I didn't find it useful. First, it's now something like 11 years old and most of the studies they quote were done in the '80s prior to the introduction of Blizzaks .. therefore I was concluding that they were comparing against the 'old school studded winter times" that you and I drove on decades ago .. not the studded versions of the "new school winter tires". Actually, I'd love to see a comparison between a regular 2013 version of the Blizzak and a studded 2013 Blizzak. Like the Altimax Artics, I think the studded version would be better.
 
I'm confused by your statement that the Tire Rack test I provided the link to "doesn't compare them (General Altimax Arctic - with and without studs) against ice and snow tires". Do you not consider the Firestone Winterforce and Pirelli Winter Carving Edge to be "ice and snow tires"?
The Tire Rack has the following performance categories for winter tires (with separate categories for cars and for trucks/SUVs):

Performance Winter / Snow
Studless Ice and Snow
Studdable Winter / Snow

The test you refer to included only "Studdable Winter/Snow" tires (which are designed to be used with studs) and not "Studless Ice and Snow" tires like the Blizzak and X-Ice (which are designed to be used without studs). (Note, the Blizzak name is also used on some "Performance Winter/Snow" tires.)

most of the studies they quote were done in the '80s prior to the introduction of Blizzaks
Absolutely not true. As noted in the study:

"Though some of the foundations for this study were developed from the 1960s through the 1980s, the focus was on more recent data, mostly from the 1990s. This research also sought data on the effects of recent developments on vehicle traction, including the more widespread use of front- and fourwheel-drive vehicles, and studless winter tires."

I'm sure those studies were prompted by the introduction of studless winter tires like the Blizzak (which I believe came out in 1992).

I'd love to see a comparison between a regular 2013 version of the Blizzak and a studded 2013 Blizzak.
They don't make studdable Blizzaks. They can't. The whole idea behind the studless Blizzaks is that they use an outer compound with a spongelike multicell feature to absorb melted ice, and which stays relatively soft even at frigid temperatures. That's what makes studless tires better. Studdable tires need to use a rubber compound that's harder, hard enough to hold the studs in place, and that's why they lose effectiveness at frigid temperatures.

Michelin has a slightly different approach with their X-Ice line of studless ice and snow tires. Although they too use a compound that stays soft even at frigid temperatures, they use siping (slits) on the outer tread to improve ice and snow traction. This approach is equally effective (the X-Ice and Blizzak studless tires achieve similar results in Tire Rack testing). Again, this is superior to studless tires, which can't use a soft compound or multicell or siping features.
 
To OP,

I have a 335i Sedan with JB4 and other mods putting down 400hp and probably more than 400lb/ft tq. I have no problem driving it in the snow what so ever with winter studless tires. However, living in Vancouver Canada, snowing conditions usually never get too severe. I also owned couple e39 M5 before, they are a beast and again, no problem driving in the winter. I am guessing the m3 will do awesome!

Also i agree to one of the responses, it really depends on how you drive as well. I have seen many many AWD suvs, FF cars, as well as other vehicles that SHOULD perform better than a FWD car get stuck on the side of the road.
 
With several years of driving instruction under my belt, I just want to put this out there for anyone to consider:

What I would be willing to drive on (in) in the winter (ice/snow) has very much to do with how skilled the other drivers are in my area. For example, in NY, I suspect that the drivers are proficient in driving on icy roads. In WA, this is also true. In AZ, however, drivers are absolutely incompetent in the RAIN. Cars flipped over on the side of the road every time it rains, no joke. Not to mention multiple freeway-jamming collisions on any route more than 5 miles.

For this reason, in addition to driving carefully and prudently, I would want to maximize my ability to take evasive action in the event that someone is stupid/incompetent/inexperienced enough to put me at increased risk of being slammed into. So I would keep the Audi for it's AWD traction, and ditch the M3 (if we're talking solely about winter driving... but there are obviously other factors in play for the OP).

Agree. Same observation with Floridians in the Rain.... Although one would hope that Floridians would expect a certain amount of rain... Then again, we are talking about Floridians.
 
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I was in a similar situation.

I had Audi Quattros for the winter for as long as I could remember (5000CS, then A8, then S8, then S4). All with winter tires(Except I did do one winter in the S4 with Goodyear GT All Seasons).

With these cars I use to long for snowy days. I, for some sick reason, enjoyed going out in blizzard weather and passing trucks, doing donuts in empty parking lots before the plows came, and seeing how much snow I could get stuck in my wheels and fascia. If it was slippery out, I would look for reasons to go out driving, always volunteering to pick up friends, and running errands because stores weren't crowded. People would look at my like I was crazy. It genuinely made winter driving fun.

I had downsized my car collection and decided I could get by driving my 300ZX in the winter.

With snow tires, it gets by. The only situation where I would avoid driving it is in 6+ inches. Other than that with a watchful right foot I have had no issues.

That being said, I no longer look forward to snow storms. Driving in the winter is just like driving any other time. I definetly miss my Audi when it snows. It was worth it to me for the time being, however, I will surely buy another Audi in the near future.
 
I can report as an aside that the geolanders on my landcruiser suck in ice and snow,very little grip.
 
I've been looking into options: Blizzak LM60 (winter performance) or WS70 (studless ice and snow). Any recommendations/preferences between these options?
 
I've been looking into options: Blizzak LM60 (winter performance) or WS70 (studless ice and snow). Any recommendations/preferences between these options?
Each has its advantages. Performance winter tires give better handling on dry roads and on days when it's not so cold. Studless ice and snow tires give better traction on roads covered with snow and ice, and they're usually less expensive too. Those are the trade-offs.

Based on these advantages, you'll need to consider your personal situation to determine which suits your needs best. For example... How bad are your winters? (If I lived near Rochester where it averages 94 inches of snow per year, I'd choose the studless tires, by far.) Also, on the days with the worst winter weather, are you likely to stay home or use another vehicle (in which case the performance winter tires might be a better choice), or must you be able to get somewhere under all weather conditions (in which case the studless variety might be better)?

HTH
 
Each has its advantages. Performance winter tires give better handling on dry roads and on days when it's not so cold. Studless ice and snow tires give better traction on roads covered with snow and ice, and they're usually less expensive too. Those are the trade-offs.

Based on these advantages, you'll need to consider your personal situation to determine which suits your needs best. For example... How bad are your winters? (If I lived near Rochester where it averages 94 inches of snow per year, I'd choose the studless tires, by far.) Also, on the days with the worst winter weather, are you likely to stay home or use another vehicle (in which case the performance winter tires might be a better choice), or must you be able to get somewhere under all weather conditions (in which case the studless variety might be better)?

HTH

Thanks for the advice--I think studless is the way to go based upon my criteria. I am going to try and make this work in the winter as primary vehicle.
 
My dad drove his e60 M5 (with performance snow tires) through 4 brutal Chicago winters WITHOUT A PROBLEM. In fact, he was able get through conditions that some awd cars were not able to and the M5 handled the conditions like a champ! So, I would fully recommend using the M3 through the winter and I would put money on it, like Ken said, that the difference between the S4 and the M3 will be visual but manageable. Then again, this is coming from a guy that daily drives his NSX through Chicago winters and it has on OS Giken super lock LSD in it too :)
 
Follow up: bought Blizzak WS70s (studless ice and snow) and had them mounted today on the M3. Drove 40 miles through a winter storm and the car never broke traction. I didn't try to push it to the limits. It also climbed a couple of hills without any issue. Performance on the ice remains to be seen but so far so good.
 

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