Honcho's Long Road to Imola Type-S Zero

General

Time for a shoutout and special "thank you!" to Mrs. Honcho. While I was getting ready for the big day on Saturday, she found, went out and bought this excellent craft cart from Michaels for me (and assembled it while I was in the garage- she's quite handy!). For about 50 bucks, it works wonderfully for keeping all of my tools, sockets and parts organized right next to where I'm working. No more running back and forth to the workbench, or losing a 10mm socket on the floor and wasting 20 minutes looking for it. I found that using the bottom tray for bagged and labeled fasteners, middle tray for small parts that don't fit in the bags and the top tray for tools worked perfectly. I'm just going to add some rubber drawer liner to the trays and call it done. We used this thing all day yesterday and it was a lifesaver! I have searched and searched for something like this for months, but all of the tables from the "real" tool stores were too big and bulky for my garage, or were ridiculously priced. This little table from Michaels works just as well and won't break the bank!

Some action shots:

Is the 6spd gearbox still available new from Honda?

Great work so far! Epic build!

Honcho said:

...certainly long enough to save up the cash for a new NSX-R spec 6-speed (~$12k).

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BBVNSX said:

Is the 6spd gearbox still available new from Honda?

Great work so far! Epic build!

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Thanks! Yes, while the full-dual synchro "E61" transmission (97-01, 05) is discontinued, you can still buy the A61 version from US dealers. Honda Japan may be able to deliver both versions still- they are built to order. Since production ran to 2005, I suspect the 6-speed will be available for a few more years. Pretty sure you can still buy new 5-speeds after all and those ended in 1996 (when I graduated high school)!

Honcho said:

Thanks! Yes, while the full-dual synchro "E61" transmission (97-01, 05) is discontinued, you can still buy the A61 version from US dealers. Honda Japan may be able to deliver both versions still- they are built to order. Since production ran to 2005, I suspect the 6-speed will be available for a few more years. Pretty sure you can still buy new 5-speeds after all and those ended in 1996 (when I graduated high school)!

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I don't dare to look but it's like $10k right?

RYU said:

I don't dare to look but it's like $10k right?

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With shipping, probably around $9k at this point, due to periodic Honda price increases. But, the one you want is the NSX-R. Adding the dual spline mainshaft, R countershaft, 4.23 R&P and 91-94 diff gets you closer to $12k. Yamamoto offers transmissions built to this spec for something like $10k or $11k. SOS is similar.

Honcho said:

With shipping, probably around $9k at this point, due to periodic Honda price increases. But, the one you want is the NSX-R. Adding the dual spline mainshaft, R countershaft, 4.23 R&P and 91-94 diff gets you closer to $12k. Yamamoto offers transmissions built to this spec for something like $10k or $11k. SOS is similar.

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What's crazy is the fact that's starting to sound like not such a crazy number.

RYU said:

What's crazy is the fact that's starting to sound like not such a crazy number.

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I know, right? What I find frustrating is that the JDM transmissions must have a different part number because if you plug the US part number (20011-PR8-A61) into the JDM parts catalog, it returns nothing even though the transmission is identical between JDM and US. I am sure the NSX-R transmission has its own part number. It would be so much easier to order one pre-built that way from Honda rather than buying a US 6-speed, tearing it apart, and then packing it with another $3,000 worth of parts. I wonder if Marc can source them?

Honcho said:

I know, right? What I find frustrating is that the JDM transmissions must have a different part number because if you plug the US part number (20011-PR8-A61) into the JDM parts catalog, it returns nothing even though the transmission is identical between JDM and US. I am sure the NSX-R transmission has its own part number. It would be so much easier to order one pre-built that way from Honda rather than buying a US 6-speed, tearing it apart, and then packing it with another $3,000 worth of parts. I wonder if Marc can source them?

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Katsuya might be able to find something for you too.

Honestly though... I think the 6spd is great. I'd love to have it if I already bought a car with it. I just don't see it being worth it, but this is also just me trying to talk myself out of one :biggrin:

Problem with all JDM diagrams I've seen in the web is that part numbers for transmission are the exploded ones... and can't find just the part number for complete transmission . Buying a complete 6MT transmission in the US plus all the R parts makes the deal just don't sound fair... :frown: Tearing a brand new freshly assembled 6MT transmission from Honda also makes me feel like a bad deal... plus wasting new parts and labor... :frown:

UPDATE (after some more research): Probably you can also get a 6MT NSX-R transmission assembled by KSP here:

http://www.kspweb.jp/shopdetail/024003000005/

but still ~$9K in japan...

I used google to translate and you can choose standard, R or 4.4...

Reading KSP website lead me to the conclusion that Honda doesn't offer assembled transmissions in japan...

Honcho said:

I know, right? What I find frustrating is that the JDM transmissions must have a different part number because if you plug the US part number (20011-PR8-A61) into the JDM parts catalog, it returns nothing even though the transmission is identical between JDM and US. I am sure the NSX-R transmission has its own part number. It would be so much easier to order one pre-built that way from Honda rather than buying a US 6-speed, tearing it apart, and then packing it with another $3,000 worth of parts. I wonder if Marc can source them?

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I've always wondered, is the E61 transmission noticeably better than the A61? Did the E61 only come on the early cars?

Also, what all changes did the NA2 NSXR tranny have?

SpeedAddict502 said:

I've always wondered, is the E61 transmission noticeably better than the A61? Did the E61 only come on the early cars?

Also, what all changes did the NA2 NSXR tranny have?

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The E61 transmissions came with dual-cone synchros on every gear. The A61 does not. That's really the only difference. The NA2 NSX-R transmission uses a twin-spline mainshaft so that it can interface with the factory twin-disc clutch. It also uses a 4.23 final drive gear instead of the normal 4.06. Because of the 4.23 ring gear, it requires a different countershaft. Finally, it uses the wet clutch "torque control" type pre-loaded differential from the 91-94 cars rather than the helical "torque reactive" type from the 95-05 cars. The S Zero uses the same transmission as the NSX-R.

Thanks for the info! So what cars got the E61 and what cars got the A61?

SpeedAddict502 said:

Thanks for the info! So what cars got the E61 and what cars got the A61?

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There is conflicting info on this over the years, but I believe:

1997-1999 and 2005 = E61

2000-2004 = A61

Both transmissions have dual cone synchros on 1-4, but the E61 also has them on 5-6.

Engine and Subframe Removal 5

Constructing the subframe cradle/cart. [MENTION=33247]MotorMouth93[/MENTION] graciously offered to loan me his metal cart, but as I may be performing this service for other owners in the future, I want to have my own unit. I have seen many versions on Prime through the years, but I decided to emulate [MENTION=12356]Mac Attack[/MENTION]. As a result of the Photobucket apocalypse, most of the old Prime photos are gone- including most of Dave's. However, I was able to find this gem, which guided my project:



Dave mentioned that you needed to make it high enough to clear the arms of the hoist, so mine was a bit taller.

Looks like the compound miter saw I bought to do all of the baseboard trim in the basement paid off for this project too! You can also see the cutouts for the chassis lifting plates I made, which are formed from three layers of 1/2" plywood. These will be described in another post.



Completed dolly. It took many turns of test-fitting and adjusting, but this is a perfect fit for the subframe, complete with locating holes for the studs on the front beam. I used four 3" casters each with a 275 lb rating. Base frame is 2x4 and resting blocks are 2x2. I used solid steel "exterior screws" to assemble the lumber. I will use rubber pads to cover the resting blocks.

Engine and Subframe Removal 6



Finally completed the axle removal. It was the big scare of the day. Special Thank You to [MENTION=3729]Larry Bastanza[/MENTION] and [MENTION=25737]Kaz-kzukNA1[/MENTION] for their assistance in this difficult task. The right side axle popped right out of the intermediate shaft after using the "2 large flat screwdriver" method. Then, the right side spindle slid out of the hub after a few relatively mild hits from my 3 lb engineer's hammer. I thought it was going to be an easy day after this, but then moved to the left side shaft. Again, the shaft popped right out of the transmission using the 2 screwdrivers. However, the spindle would not budge from the hub. After several strikes with the engineer's hammer, I was hitting it so hard that I became concerned for the ball joints and other hub components due to the shocks. I stopped and decided to try the penetrating oil (PB blaster) and the hub puller tool. Thankfully, O'Reilly auto parts had one available for loan.



Combined with the oil and the "big beast" impact gun, the puller was able to move the spindle shaft. But, after about 5 mm of movement, the gun started to simply spin the hub. I moved back to the hammer, hoping that the puller broke it loose enough, but no joy. I placed the shaft back into the transmission to stabilize it and this time, we were able to re-engage the puller and push the spindle almost completely out. But, we quickly observed that the spindle was jammed inside the hub at an angle, the CV joint was essentially maxed out in deflection and the trans-side shaft was jammed in the transmission in a slight tilt. The entire driveshaft was wedged completely and would not move in either direction. I felt that terrible sinking feeling- did I ruin the hub splines? The transmission? I thought that perhaps CV boot was a source of tension, so I cut it in hopes to allow some play. The melted mocha ice cream grease poured out all over, but no change in orientation. I considered hitting the hub side shaft to try and "pop" it out of the hub, but was worried I would just be jamming it in even harder. I started to contemplate just cutting the axle and trashing the whole thing before I ruined the hub or transmission. Looking at the arrangement, I realized that the splines were completely disengaged from the hub and it was hanging in there on only the spindle. There was also about 15 mm of shaft protruding from the transmission side. I could see that it was at a slight angle, but I knew by the length there wasn't much more shaft in the housing (e.g., it was not fully engaged on the splines inside the differential). If I could disengage the shaft from the transmission, it should just fall out of the hub. I grabbed a pry bar and pulled on the trans side shaft- it moved. With [MENTION=34522]NSX_n00b[/MENTION] pulling the hub as far out as it would go, I pried the shaft out of the transmission and the entire driveshaft went crashing to the ground. Other than me being covered in burned-out CV grease, it turned out ok. I inspected the hub and there was no damage to the splines. I also inspected the transmission with the bright light and, thankfully, there was no damage or markings inside the housing, thought the rubber seal is ruined. I will have to inspect the outer CV joint, as I am not sure whether it was damaged being at that extreme angle and being hammered/pressed by the puller.

If you use a hub puller you need to make sure the hub is fixed and won't turn, otherwise the puller will just spin the hub. Also, the PB Blaster was indeed soaking into the splines. If I had done it over a few days, I may have been able to just smack it out of the hub without needing the puller. It seems like for a really stuck driveshaft, the correct order should have been: (1) soak the splines for a few days in your favorite oil, (2) use the puller while the shaft is still engaged in the transmission so the hub won't spin, (3) once the shaft is "broken" loose using the puller, remove the puller and dismount the shaft from the transmission, and (4) tap the shaft out of the hub.

This took much longer than anticipated and involved a trip to the auto parts store and Home Depot. Unfortunately, it delayed the entire engine removal process for the day. However, we were very fortunate not to have caused any damage.

Sorry for the lack of pictures, but we were scrambling pretty hard during the process.

General

Some more upgrades to the garage during the day.

Placed the rubber drawer liner in the service cart. Two .50 cal ammo cans ensured a good adhesion.




Re-finishing the workbench surface in preparation for the transmission service and cylinder head work. I have a total of 16 feet of bench space. I previously covered it with a 1 mm thick hard PVC plastic laminate, but was not pleased with the outcome because the laminate lifted and bubbled in spots due to the large temperature swings in the garage (you can see some of the bubbling in the picture below). I am going to replace with some very nice 1/4" smooth plywood. 6 feet of the space will be covered with galvanized steel sheet for work on oiled /greased components like transmissions, brakes and cylinder heads. I am considering painting the exposed plywood surface with a hardened epoxy, or perhaps buying some formica countertop laminate. Not sure yet. Here is the sheet steel waiting to be installed.



Mrs. Honcho had this nice clock made for the shop space. It is my old NSX, now in the care of [MENTION=31359]jazzmann[/MENTION]. It will go on the wall, quietly watching over my new NSX.

The rear subframe dolly looks great! I still have mine tucked away somewhere. Just couldn't get rid of it even though I hope to never have to use it again!

Engine and Subframe Removal 7

Surprise!



It was a fun adventure. Since no one has really documented the hoist-method, here are some lessons we learned:

(1) Remove all of the subframe bolts before hoisting the rear of the car. We left 4 bolts in: two on the front beam and two on the rear corners of the side beams. The idea being that the subframe would not shift when lifting it. However, we discovered that the remaining bolts prevented us from being able to move the subframe around to get it into position on the engine cradle. It would have been better to remove all of the bolts and use the 4 engine mounts to lower the entire subframe assembly onto the engine cradle. Then just remove the side mounts and lift away.
(2) Lower the car to the lowest point on the jack stands before removing the rear ones to lower onto the engine cradle. NSX sitting low in the rear below.



(3) Before lifting the rear end, jack the entire car as high as your jack stands will allow. This minimizes both the height you need to raise the rear end and also the forward-tipping on the front stands.
(4) Make a cross brace on your engine cradle to support the engine block, ideally not on the oil pan, which is not designed to support a heavy load. If you don't, then the transaxle will tilt down on the engine side, since the whole thing is only resting on the front and rear mounts. Also, you get a terrifying drop when you undo the side motor mounts and the transaxle falls down as it tilts. We did not do the cross brace and will pay the price when attempting to remove the transmission. [MENTION=33247]MotorMouth93[/MENTION] was right!
(5) Watch the clearance between the front head and the bulkhead. We noticed that when the engine was released from the side motor mounts, the entire assembly moved toward the front of the car. Thus, when we starting lifting the body, it contacted the front head cover. Make sure to use the hoist and cradle to move the engine toward the rear of the car before lifting!

The lifting blocks I fabricated. They are made from 3 layers of 5/8" sheathing glued together forming a nearly 2 inch thick solid block. 3/8" steel eye bolts and 5/16" hex bolts secure it to the car and hoist chains. They worked extremely well and made lifting the body quite drama-free.




More removal process



Mrs. Honcho supervising. You can see how little extra height is needed beyond the rear jack stand if you have it all the way up. Maybe 6 inches? The subframe slid out easily at this height.



Spencer wiggling the cart out.



Notice how the engine is tilting to the left? Yeah.



Big milestone!



Now to finish removing the rest of the small parts and start masking all of the lines/wires that are staying on the car!

I like your method for attaching the hoist to the chassis, I’m stealing that for when I put my subframe back in. I attached the hoist to the subframe bolt holes and I had issues with the motor getting in the way of the chains.

Congratulations!!!

I must have added a cross-brace later too, because although it's hard to tell from this angle, my engine wasn't tilting:

View attachment 163144

Looking back on a few of the old pics I also remembered I built this other dolly too. I think it was to help separate the engine and transmission because the wood support blocks only touched the engine block:

Thanks Dave! Those are really helpful. I may build something less mobile and quick to just support the engine block. Thankfully, removing the AT is much easier because there is no mainshaft spline to wiggle out of the clutch. Still, the thought of doing it while the whole transaxle is hanging suspended on the hoist frightens me!

Also, for the blog and posterity, I also want to mention that if your A/C system is already open and empty of refrigerant (like mine), it turns out that removing the front beam and A/C compressor is not necessary to drop the engine. There are two hard line connections on the right side, next to the gas tank. You can disconnect here and avoid the whole mess with the front beam. I'll try to get some pictures and update when I get a minute.

Weight Reduction - S Zero Conversion 29

After the big drama of the engine drop last week, it was nice to be working at a more relaxed pace. Today there were three options: (1) finish removing all items from the front bay; (2) start masking all remaining lines and parts in the engine bay; or (3) remove the interior. While the first two options are more directly related to getting the chassis ready for paint, the third option was the most work-dense, so we picked that. First, however, we removed the gas tank.



This was fairly easy to remove, but I strongly recommend draining the tank first- it is fairly light without any gas in it. Also, a floor jack with supporting wood block made the removal quite easy. The tank exterior will be cleaned, all rubber hoses replaced, new OEM fuel pump installed, and I will wash the interior with denatured alcohol.

Weight Reduction - S Zero Conversion 30

Next, we set about removing the entire interior. This was necessary for several reasons:

- Steering column and Dash had to come out to access the pedal box area to install the clutch pedal and wire harness, as well as remove the SRS components
- HVAC must come out to replace the leaking evaporator and send to Joe G. in Florida for foam replacement
- Carpets must be washed with the hot water machine
- AT shifter and cable must be removed
- Defroster panel is cracked in half (in the typical spot) and must be replaced

We accomplished all of these except for the SRS main unit. One of the torx screws snapped off the welded aluminum post. I will have to cut it out with the Dremel.



We will re-cover the headliner and pillars in black jersey like the late Type-S. You can see the gray vinyl starting to pull away in the head boxes.







Carpet refresh. Standard procedure is to thoroughly vacuum, apply stain remover to all stains, and then slowly wash with the hot water machine. These carpets were so disgusting that I considered just trashing them, but after some hard elbow grease, they came back beautifully! The water we pulled out was dark brown, almost like coffee.

Honcho said:

The tank exterior will be cleaned, all rubber hoses replaced, new OEM fuel pump installed, and I will wash the interior with denatured alcohol.

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Curious about why you would use denatured alcohol. The NSX is not designed for E85 so alcohol could be pretty corrosive on any metal components in the tank. I would be more inclined to use something like a brake cleaner.

Old Guy said:

Curious about why you would use denatured alcohol. The NSX is not designed for E85 so alcohol could be pretty corrosive on any metal components in the tank. I would be more inclined to use something like a brake cleaner.

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Good question! I spent weeks researching methods to clean out a gas tank. Some were truly frightening (throw some chains and water in it and shake the tank vigorously), and most others involved putting water in the tank. I really don't want to introduce any water into the tank because I am fairly sure I could never get it all out. Instead, denatured alcohol is cheap, plentiful and will thoroughly break up and emulsify any varnish or sludge at the bottom of the tank. Most gas in the US is E10 now, so some alcohol in the fuel shouldn't be a problem. Moreover, I am replacing all rubber fuel lines in the car with Gates Barricade line, which is E85 rated and meets or exceeds SAE J30R14T2 for fuel permeation and ethanol resistance. What little bit of the alcohol remains in the tank after cleaning shouldn't cause much trouble and once the tank is run through, the next tank will be back to normal. I agree you should not run anything higher then E10 in the NSX due to the unsuitability of the fuel system to ethhanol. I'm actually thinking of writing my next tech article for NSXCA about this issue. Anyway, the plan for the tank is (1) fill with 2-3 gallons of alcohol, (2) agitate, (3) let soak overnight, (4) agitate again, (5) let settle for 20 min., (6) empty out, (7) let air out for a week.