270hp vs. 290hp - 5 speed vs. 6 speed - Coupe vs. Targa

[G-man]

Hi gang, I find myself in the market for yet another NSX since I sold off my entire collection of cars and figured I would replace what I actually missed. Oldly enough, I miss my NSX most of all.

So, I will never make the mistake of buying a NEW one ever again. Did that and lost $30K in 1 year. And if the 2004 models are as ugly as the abomination that is the 2003 model then Honda can keep it in Japan as far as I am concerned.

So, that leaves me looking in the US market for a car. There is a lot to recommend the 1991-1994 cars that have leveled off in terms of price now. The next level is the 1995-1996 cars before the 1997 bump in power. So, it seems to come down to a matter of just 3 or 4 factors.

1) 270 hp vs. 290 hp.
2) 5 Speed vs. 6 Speed.
3) Coupe vs. Targa.
4) $30K vs. $50K+

With all of the former items relating to the older cars and the latter ones to the 1997 and newer cars. So far, there is a good crop of older cars to choose from and the 1991-1994 cars have been VERY popular for mods.

What I wanted to hear about from this group was their perspective on the relative importance of these factors. I have seen a number of NSX owners "upgrade" from an early car to a later car but I don't see to many people who have owned a newer car sell it to buy an older car. If there are any of you out there, let me know.

I know from owning my 2000 NSX-T that the 290 hp engine and the 6 speed was pure joy! With more power for header, exhaust, intake and others, you might even get the right sound and feel out of the car that frankly should have been there to start with. Let's be honest, no NSX offers that FERRARI-like sound out of the box.

So, without an older NSX to drive and compare against, I wanted to get some feedback on what you all think about this trade offs, the comprimises and the comparisons.

As many of you know I am thinking of buying Ilya's car sight unseen thanks to all of your good inputs, but wanted to let the "peanut gallery" chime in on the differences first before I decide. Some of you have encouraged me to go for a 1997 car with the same spec as my 2000 and now $20K less than when I sold mine. I still might do that, but before I do, let's hear what you all have to say. Thanks,

------------------
Gordon G. Miller, III
2000 NSX-T #51 Yellow/Black

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by G-man:
I will never make the mistake of buying a NEW one ever again. Did that and lost $30K in 1 year.

One way of avoiding that trap is to wait for a good deal on a new one, instead of overpaying (especially if you paid more than MSRP

when many dealers were selling at a discount). Some owners who bought the 2001 leftovers with incentives only paid around $70K and can probably sell their cars for almost as much as they paid for them. However, in the next few years, these cars too will follow the general pattern of maximum depreciation in the first few years when they are newest.

Originally posted by G-man:
1) 270 hp vs. 290 hp.
2) 5 Speed vs. 6 Speed.
3) Coupe vs. Targa.
4) $30K vs. $50K+

What I wanted to hear about from this group was their perspective on the relative importance of these factors. I have seen a number of NSX owners "upgrade" from an early car to a later car but I don't see to many people who have owned a newer car sell it to buy an older car. If there are any of you out there, let me know.

I think the most important question to answer first is number 3. Do you want a coupe or an NSX-T? How important is the ability to open the roof to you? There are those for whom this is very important. There are others who use their car for track events and to whom the additional rigidity of the coupe (as well as the banning of open-top cars by some groups who hold track events) is paramount. Fortunately, you're in a unique situation, since you have owned an NSX-T. Would your enjoyment have decreased substantially had you not been able to remove the roof panel? If so, get an NSX-T; if not, get the coupe.

If you want the coupe, that resolves ALL the other issues. '95+ coupes are so few that they are almost impossible to find, except for the Zanardi, and a used Zanardi is probably above your stated budget.

If you want an NSX-T, then you're choosing between a '95-96 and a '97+. That narrows the price gap to roughly $10K for the extra horses, six-speed, slightly better rigidity (although not as rigid as the coupe), and other improvements of the '97+. At that point, it's a matter of your own personal priorities, either for the additional horsepower etc or for the $10K savings.

There are indeed some owners who have gone from a later NSX-T to an earlier coupe; many of these switchers use their NSX primarily for the track.

One more thought: If you are most concerned with retaining market value, get an early coupe and don't spend anything on aftermarket modifications.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 31 July 2002).]

 

[WeakestLink]

If you would be interested in an 01 silver/black w/ 3k miles, please email me. I'm in the Wash DC area. Thanks.

 

[blurr]

I too am about to buy another NSX, the car bug is hitting me really hard right now. The RSX just isn't up to it.

Originally posted by G-man:
So, I will never make the mistake of buying a NEW one ever again. Did that and lost $30K in 1 year.

How did you lose 30k in one year on the car? I Bought my New 2000-T for right at $72,000 (there was a 5k incentive on 2000's at the time) with tax and everything it came out to less than 80k. When I rolled it the insurance paid me more than that.

You can still find 2001 NSX's at Acura dealers, and they have a $7500 incentive on them. You should be able to get it for less than 70k.

As for what to get next I would go for a '97. I think that is what I am going to do. The seats are not as nice as the 00's but you get everything else. The also seem to be easier to mod. OBDII in the 98+, from what I have heard, can be a pain to boost.

The 2002 NSX look has really grown on me though so I am thinking about upddating whatever car I get with the new body style.

-matt

[This message has been edited by blurr (edited 31 July 2002).]

[This message has been edited by blurr (edited 31 July 2002).]

 

[Lud]

OBDII was introduced on the 1995 NSX...

 

[blurr]

my bad

 

[ilya]

Since my opinion is biased, I will stay out of the discussion. My main thought to add would be if you do decide on a Targa, go for the 97+.

The 95-96 would be nearly identical to the early coupe with the added weight of the T. You would not be getting the extra HP or 6 speed. I know you mentioned you didn't care for the Targa so I thought I would comment. If the T is not important, decide between the 91-94 versus 97+. Good luck.

 

[aaronb]

When I bought my car last year I was looking at 97's for several reasons:

1. I really wanted to be able to take the top off.
2. I felt that the '97 was virtually identical to the 2001 with the max depreciation on that configuration
3. Easier to find extended warranty on cars less than 5 years old
4. All the '97 and up Goodies (Engine, Tranny, etc)

The most glaring difference I noticed between the '97 and '91-'96 is the transmission. I don't think that the 20HP is as significant a difference as the 6-speed. Though my car does feel a little stronger than some of the 91 and 92 cars I've driven, there are probably fairly inexpensive ways to duplicate the 20HP difference.

If you're not stuck on the Targa, I highly recommend driving some pre-97 cars both with and without short-gears, and other tranny mods.

My 2 cents

Aaron

[This message has been edited by aaronb (edited 31 July 2002).]

 

[phillyt]

...Based on what you've said I think that the 97 would be best bet. Spending the extra money will benefit you in the long run.

 

[nsxtasy]

Summary:

Power/acceleration: '97
Rigidity: '91-94
Depreciation: '91-94
Cost: '91-94 for a coupe, '95-96 NSX-T

 

[ChopsJazz]

G-man, you can put gears and an R&P in a 5-speed to improve the gearing deficiencies and you can get all the power you want with a few aftermarket go-fast parts. My opinion? Get a 91-92 low-mileage coupe.

Oh, and welcome back.

 

[D'Ecosse]

I would say that if you were to be already pre-disposed to any of the features you highlighted, then you look around at the choices available with that set & decide on which particular car meets those criteria.
Or, you might just come across something with everything opposite, but is a great find - I found a 93 with <15k Miles at a good price. Sure, a targa would be nice but how often would I really use it? The extra horses too, but new headers & exhaust will help fix that.
So I would say, just keep your options open & when you find something that fits you, you will know it & buy it if the price is right.

 

[d96eddie]

Originally posted by aaronb:

The most glaring difference I noticed between the '97 and '91-'96 is the transmission. I don't think that the 20HP is as significant a difference as the 6-speed. Though my car does feel a little stronger than some of the 91 and 92 cars I've driven, there are probably fairly inexpensive ways to duplicate the 20HP difference....
____________________

Spot on statement. The other material mechanical changes made in '97 just add to the equasion.

Originally posted by blurr:
You can still find 2001 NSX's at Acura dealers, and they have a $7500 incentive on them. You should be able to get it for less than 70k...
____________________

blurr how does one research what 'new' '01s are still in the Acura dealership inventory? I do not appreciate the esthetic changes for MY '02 as you do try as I might...another trip to Hoehn Acura today for another look at their '02s. As such I would consider trading my '97 for a new '01.

Michael

 

[NSXaholic]

G-man, clue the rest of us in as to why you sold of your stable of cars -- including what appears to be a beautiful MY2000 -- and are now back in the market. Extenuating circumstances? Flight of fancy? Boredom? Deplorable wealth?

Regards.

 

[MAKO]

If memory serves G-Man, you got into a lot of pissing contests on this board, particularly over a certain 911 you owned.

Where's that "superior to the NSX" C4 that you spent every last breath defending now?

 

[ChopsJazz]

G-man, you've got mail.

Fester

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by d96eddie:
blurr how does one research what 'new' '01s are still in the Acura dealership inventory?

Every dealership has computers and connectivity where they can search for any new '01 at any dealer in the country.

I thought all the new '01 cars had been sold though...

 

[blurr]

Originally posted by nsxtasy:
I thought all the new '01 cars had been sold though...

Not all, There is at least one left. Southcoast Acura in Costa Mesa CA has a red/tan one on their showroom. I am 99% positive it is brand new.

-matt

 

[RyRy210]

Originally posted by blurr:
Not all, There is at least one left. Southcoast Acura in Costa Mesa CA has a red/tan one on their showroom. I am 99% positive it is brand new.

-matt

Matt is right, there was a New '01 NSX there. At least it was there last time I went to service at South Coast Acura.

Ryan

 

[G-man]

Originally posted by WeakestLink:
If you would be interested in an 01 silver/black w/ 3k miles, please email me. I'm in the Wash DC area. Thanks.

Well, if you are selling below $49,995 then I might be interested. But, I can't e-mail you since your profile has no e-mail address and you didn't provide any in your post. So, you truly are the "Weakest Link, Goodbye".

------------------
Gordon G. Miller, III
2000 NSX-T #51 Yellow/Black

 

[G-man]

Originally posted by blurr:
How did you lose 30k in one year on the car? I Bought my New 2000-T for right at $72,000 (there was a 5k incentive on 2000's at the time) with tax and everything it came out to less than 80k. When I rolled it the insurance paid me more than that.

Well, I don't know where you guys shop, but I bought my car in February 2000 and there were only 2 yellow/black cars in the US, one in San Diego and one in Wisconsin. They were both selling for MSRP ONLY, so $88,000 plus all accessories, cover, CD Changer, trunk mats, bra, etc... The total was $92,600. Add Sales Tax, licensing fees, Luxury Tax, etc and you get $100,000 before you know it. When I sold mine, I only owed $75,000, but couldn't find a buyer for more than $70,000. So, $100K - $70K is $30K in about 16 months. Never again that is for sure.


------------------
Gordon G. Miller, III
2000 NSX-T #51 Yellow/Black

 

[G-man]

Originally posted by ilya:
Since my opinion is biased, I will stay out of the discussion. My main thought to add would be if you do decide on a Targa, go for the 97+.

Hahaha! Yep, well I can appreciate your unique position in this case for sure. Oddly enough, for me I was really more interested in the 5 speed vs. the 6 speed. I remember when I bought my 2000 that the extra few hp didn't really matter, but everyone was raving about how much better the 6 speed was as a gearbox than the 5 speeds. I know there are a lot of 5 speed mods out there, but I am debating on the 5 speed vs. 6 speed. Sure the targa vs. coupe thing is an issue of sorts too, but I had a Targa and now that I think about it I think 99% of the time the top was out since I didn't even think of driving it in bad weather anyway... so the "headroom" may not be that much of an issue as I once thought. I think my track days are over and the targa might be a nice feature once again... dunno, that is why I asked you guys.

------------------
Gordon G. Miller, III
2000 NSX-T #51 Yellow/Black

 

[G-man]

Originally posted by NSXaholic:
G-man, clue the rest of us in as to why you sold of your stable of cars -- including what appears to be a beautiful MY2000 -- and are now back in the market. Extenuating circumstances? Flight of fancy? Boredom? Deplorable wealth?
Regards.

Well, I suppose that is a fair question for all of you who did not follow my plight back then. There were 3 major factors in my decision to sell.

1) MONEY VS. DEBT
I woke up one day and found out I I had somewhere between $375K and $500K in cars sitting in the driveway and LOTS OF DEBT and a house worth only $140K. So, I decided to sell ALL my cars. Everything from vintage Porsche 911S to 1996 Porsche C4S, my NSX and even my 740iS BMW. You get the picture. So, I paid off my near 6-figure debt. Sold my house. Bought one 2x the size and got my priorities back in order. Believe it or not, I actually went over 6 months without ANY car except my Acura MDX SUV. For those of you who know me, you can now be shocked with horror.

2) TRACKTIME
I found that from 2000-2001 I spend over 12 days and 2,000 miles on the race track, including 2 wonderful days at NSXPO in Atlanta. I found the NSX boring to drive, even driving FAST. The car is so smooth, and so stable, and so forgiving, it wasn't much fun on the track unless you were going all out at 140 mph. I know this sounds insane, but it was true. My Porsche C4S was 4 seconds a lap faster with better acceleration, better brakes and better overall track manners than the NSX. I just got bored with the NSX on the track.

3) "DANGERFIELD SYNDROME"
"I don't get no respect". It used to bother me that I canceled my order for my 1999 Ferrari 355 in order to buy my 2000 NSX. I still regret it to some degree. But as many of you know we as NSX owners don't get any respect. Most of the great unwashed masses don't even know what it is! I can't tell you how many times my yellow NSX was mistaken for a "new Corvette" that was popular in yellow that year among rednecks and the NASCAR crowd. It used to really piss me off that I paid $100K and people who paid $40K for a corvette got more recognition.

The one last factor that finalized my choice was that I was worried about it everywhere I went that something would happen to it. The aluminum skin is so prone to door dings and the car is SOOO wide (almost as wide as my 750iL BMW)... it used to bother me.

Now, things are different. I am debt free and have a new house and money in the bank, so life is good. Now, I simply find myself missing driving my NSX. It is odd that I would miss it so much, but it was a blast to drive, but it is so comfortable on long trips. I could drive anything I want... right now I am driving a new BMW M3 Convertible, but I miss my NSX.

I am sure you guys know what I am talking about.

------------------
Gordon G. Miller, III
2000 NSX-T #51 Yellow/Black

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by G-man:
the car is SOOO wide (almost as wide as my 750iL BMW)... it used to bother me.

I'm surprised you say this, since the NSX was almost the narrowest of the four late-model cars you mention owning at the time:

1996 Porsche C4S - 70.7 inches
2000 NSX - 71.3 inches
BMW 750iL - 73.3 inches
Acura MDX - 76.3 inches

Now, if you had said that the MDX is sooooo wide, I would understand perfectly.

 

[d96eddie]

Ken, Matt and Ryan,

Thank you all very much for your follow-up postings.

Michael