A good week gone bad at the track...

[na14yu]

Be careful from whom you get your ideas when you are a novice. And try not to be creative on your own. Porsche's are built loose to lubricate the cyclinders and typically burn one quart of oil every 2000 to 3000 miles. On the track they go through oil even faster so over filling by 1/4 to 1/3 quart is an accepted idea among Porsche DE drivers.

Hi there, thanks for the input. I know our car doesn't typically burn oil so I didn't overfill with the intention of letting it burn off. I've read here and elsewhere that it's sometimes a good idea to overfill a little bit before a track event so as to have some type of preventative measure (in case there is oil starvation during cornering). Obviously this is done with the assumption that if there was just a bit more oil than usual available in the entire pan, then as oil shifts to the sides of the pan there would be a little more oil than usual left near the pick-up point. Of course this isn't a bulletproof theory and the drawbacks are that you could:

1) run the risk of foaming the oil, which could lead into it's own set of issues being discussed elsewhere in this thread, and

2) loss of horsepower because having too much oil in the pan can cause unneccessary windage where the crank is being robbed of hp by having to turn against extra oil, for lack of a better description (bike engines and mega high revving F1 engines have to overcome this engineering obstacle since the rotational speed of their crank is so much greater than normal street cars)

Again I made the mistake of filling it a little bit more than a "little bit", but really it was just a little bit (heh) and I figured that foaming wasn't going to be a problem for me since I'm using a good oil, it's a fresh fill, and I wouldn't keep that oil for more than 500 miles or so anyways - my car isn't a daily driven and is only street driven so I can drive it to the track and back.

I always try to seek out opinion and feedback, but I also have fun just tinkering and trying different things. Of couse I know I'm playing with fire and it would be an expensive grenade, but that's why they say YMMV :smile:

 

[MLmotorsport]

If the belief is that the oil foamed, it would be helpful to test the oil at Blackstone Labs ($20 for the test) to validate or eliminate that cause. The more variables you eliminate, the easier to narrow the cause.

An oil analysis may be a good step to begin to rule specific causes out

I'd never even thought of that until it was mentioned here. The moment I saw the peices in the pan my heart sank and my mind no longer thought too clearly... I was seeing dollar bill signs the rest of the day... and week. :frown:
John and his helper (former NSX racer, Mike) had a way of making me laugh about it though. It was kind of like when you're at a visitation and someone tells a hilarious story about the deceased - it feels good to laugh after the mourning - in fact you may laugh a little harder because of it. That was me. :wink:
Anyway, I don't think John took a sample or I'm sure he would have told me. It would have been helpful, I'm sure. Hindsight - ugh!

 

[Hrant]

10W30 Mobil1 Synthetic - I'm wondering if a heavier weight oil would benefit a tracked NSX. But that's probably for another thread. (no flames please :smile: )

Well, what's done is done. But given that you used Mobil 1 synthetic which I believe has a temp range of up to 450F before it breaks down, if the oil "failed" ....... and I know attorneys will have a field day in finding loopholes of what "failed" is, theoretically speaking you may have cause.

 

[NSXLuvr]

Sorry for your loss. I am following the thread closely.

 

[docjohn]

Who knows as Ken eloquently stated.I spun a bearing on my original motor at only 48k miles,at pocono,and to this day I don't know how it happened.At that time I took the oportunity to get a new short block and had comptech do thier iem mods to the top end.I hear that you can get some good results from mating a 3.2 shortblock to 3.0 liter heads with comptech or SOS cams and have a nice NA motor.

 

[MLmotorsport]

At that time I took the oportunity to get a new short block and had comptech do thier iem mods to the top end.I hear that you can get some good results from mating a 3.2 shortblock to 3.0 liter heads with comptech or SOS cams and have a nice NA motor.

Hey John,
These are some of the suggestions/options I'm looking for right now (with some cost estimates or itemized ~costs if possible) so thanks!
How long ago did yours happen? It seems like displacement increases are becoming more common, if not more "affordable". I think the 3.2's are still quite pricy - almost cost effective to bore a 3.0 to a 3.3 along w/ the various upgrades. I've heard the other mods needed when moving to the 3.2 (tranny, etc) make boring the 3.0 even more justifiable. I'm still waiting on the findings from the rest of the engine... hopefully next week sometime. But having a grasp on the options available would be nicec once I do get the results.

 

[ohshytitschris]

wow. sorry to hear about that Michael. hope everything works out! i got a service manual..if you need any specs or anything, let me know and I can give you all the information.

chris

 

[docjohn]

Hey John,
These are some of the suggestions/options I'm looking for right now (with some cost estimates or itemized ~costs if possible) so thanks!
How long ago did yours happen? It seems like displacement increases are becoming more common, if not more "affordable". I think the 3.2's are still quite pricy - almost cost effective to bore a 3.0 to a 3.3 along w/ the various upgrades. I've heard the other mods needed when moving to the 3.2 (tranny, etc) make boring the 3.0 even more justifiable. I'm still waiting on the findings from the rest of the engine... hopefully next week sometime. But having a grasp on the options available would be nicec once I do get the results.

My oem motor went in 01 it was a 96.That rebuild went again in 05 due to a valve train failure,so my decision with the help of some friends advice was to just buy a used complete 3.2 liter motor rather than perform another rebiuld or big bore motor.My suggestion if you do a hotter na motor is to inspect the valve springs every 2 years and replace the valve springs every 3-4 years.

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

It seems like displacement increases are becoming more common, if not more "affordable".

It sounds to me like your trying to see the good in the bad, perhaps using the opportunity for some engine mods. :biggrin:

I don't think really any aftermarket work to an NSX engine, particularly stroked NA applications or lower compression FI has become significantly any more or less affordable over time. From most walk-in customers point of view parts are expensive, time from a good engine builder is expensive, installation and tuning is expensive, and the inevitable reliability and cost vs. performance of the package is always an open discussion depending on your application and budget.

I think the 3.2's are still quite pricy - almost cost effective to bore a 3.0 to a 3.3 along w/ the various upgrades. I've heard the other mods needed when moving to the 3.2 (tranny, etc) make boring the 3.0 even more justifiable.

From most NSX enthusiasts points of view I've come into, I would say it's likely only more cost effective if the replacement engine works and proves as reliable as an otherwise mostly stock power plant. As John pointed out, if you end up eating a second motor during the process cost savings quickly become irrelevant, and your car will likely be on jack stands for even longer.

Having just suffered an unexpected relatively expensive loss in the midst of the summer driving season, it might be best to just secure a new bottom end or a used C30 and minimize the downtime as opposed to using it as an opportunity to do a stroke engine build-up. If you want opportunities to spend more, spring for the C32B- or you could do some bullet proofing- maintenance, some lubrication, cooling upgrades, maybe even some head work and cams and your wallet will be an extra 5 grand thinner above and beyond the cost of the base repair in no time.

 

[MLmotorsport]

Good points by both Johns - thanks again!
Doc, I'm sorry to hear you've been bittten twice!
I'll just give you some insight as to where I'm coming from (using rounded numbers here - ie give or take thousands :redface: )
The costs really aren't that bad when looking at a new (used) engine - assuming I can find one that I'm satisfied with (good history etc).

I can't help but think in terms of cost/value of the final product w/ my dealer background... (ie - I'm not planning on selling either X in the near future but ya never know)

Option 1.

-My old engine if parted out or sold whole is probably worth 1500-2500.

-A new engine with some of the upgrades (billet oil gear etc) and fresh everything (hoses belts w/p) will run me maybe 7k

The car will be worth no more because it will have the same engine (+ a couple upgrades that won't add too much value to the average NSX buyer)

This will net a $5k cost

Option 2.
Assuming there's some cyl wall/head damage I could bore the cyls to 95mm (ie 3.3L) add the new heads and various other upgrades that go with the size increase (including rebuild and polish of current shaft) which will cost me 8-9k shopping around may lower that a little). This will also leave this engine prepped for a 3.8 stroker (by adding simply adding the shaft and (I think) billet rods (both out of my price range right now).

Net cost ~$9k

Though I will have a few grand more invested I will also have a car that's more fun! :smile: On top of that, when it comes time to sell (if ever), the car will be worth more and more desireable (no flames - I know that could be debated - but woudln't most of us pay more for a 3.3?). The increased value and desireability of the car is what I'm wondering about. It may not be 4 grand more valuable but if someone is looking at making a 3.0 into a stroker they're going to have to shell out nearly as much as I did in "fixing" mine even if their engine is perfectly fine to start with. A 3.3 for sale to that guy would be worth a pretty penny more than a stocker.

Some may not follow my line of logic but it's similar in thought to when I tell people that "an early NSX is one of the cheapest cars you can own". Sure the initial outlay is "high" for a used car but the maintenance is rare and the resale is amazing - making the cost of ownership low when it comes time to sell. (unless you spin a bearing along the way :frown: ) Though i do forget to tell them that the liklihood you'll ever want to sell it (and realize the low cost) is nil. :wink:

 

[nsxtasy]

Though I will have a few grand more invested I will also have a car that's more fun! :smile: On top of that, when it comes time to sell (if ever), the car will be worth more and more desireable (no flames - I know that could be debated - but woudln't most of us pay more for a 3.3?). The increased value and desireability of the car is what I'm wondering about. It may not be 4 grand more valuable but if someone is looking at making a 3.0 into a stroker they're going to have to shell out nearly as much as I did in "fixing" mine even if their engine is perfectly fine to start with. A 3.3 for sale to that guy would be worth a pretty penny more than a stocker.

Don't count on it. Like any non-mainstream modifications, the market for such a car would be extremely limited, since many potential buyers wouldn't consider it. Yes, if you find that guy, you might get more than stock, but if you don't, you might have to settle for the same amount or even less. For the purposes of your current decision, I recommend assuming that you would not be able to get any higher value when selling such a car as you would for one with a stock motor.

 

[docjohn]

I think you are on top of your options and your pricing is ok,but you have'nt figured in the labor$ and replacing or upgrading the other stuf that goes into an engine swap:trannie ,clutch wiring looms engine mounts ect.FWIW I was able to run a 3.2 motor on my 96 with my stock ecu,but in doing my latest swap I incured an additional 5k in charges for labor and rebuilding the trannie with 4.23 rp.Also it is a pita to sell off your used engine parts,ie having to pack them and shipping costs can aproach value,I still have most of my old engine bits lying around oozing oil:redface:

 

[MLmotorsport]

I think you are on top of your options and your pricing is ok,but you have'nt figured in the labor$ and replacing or upgrading the other stuf that goes into an engine swap:trannie ,clutch wiring looms engine mounts ect.FWIW I was able to run a 3.2 motor on my 96 with my stock ecu,but in doing my latest swap I incured an additional 5k in charges for labor and rebuilding the trannie with 4.23 rp.Also it is a pita to sell off your used engine parts,ie having to pack them and shipping costs can aproach value,I still have most of my old engine bits lying around oozing oil:redface:

Ya dumping the whole engine as-is may be the cheapest/easiest thing to do if I go the replacement route.
About the added costs for install. That was one of the things that made the 3.3 more appealing than an NA2 3.2. It looks like a 3.3 would be plug-n-play with my car. (not to mention the 3.2's cost quite a bit more than the 3.0 blocks right now) I have the CT 4.55 rp and am quite happy this tranny so I could leave that alone. I think even the stock ecu will work w/ the 3.3L mod - but an "upgrade" may "get the most" out of the new specs, according to the tuner. I will definitely figure out the costs w/in a couple hundred (installed & running) before I pick a route. Heck - this is all speculative right now anyway. I may find out all is well uptop and a new piston/rod + machining the crank will do the trick. :wink: Though I have taken another look at the pics posted in my first post and upon further inspection I see alot of metallic "stuff" in what I think is the oil pick-up(?) (first pic, bottom left corner

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

I didn't read the whole thread. But it is a good chance that the car had oil starvation due to Ian Baas driving it. When a pro at his level driving a stock car at the limit, things happens.

 

[AU_NSX]

I would be re-building the original motor if re-sale value is a consideration for you. That will maintain the original engine number...

An NSX with the original engine number would be worth more to me than one that had changed the engine...

Other people's opinion may be different but people always comment about finding a well looked after "original" NSX... JMHO

 

[nsxtasy]

I would be re-building the original motor if re-sale value is a consideration for you. That will maintain the original engine number...

An NSX with the original engine number would be worth more to me than one that had changed the engine...

Other people's opinion may be different but people always comment about finding a well looked after "original" NSX... JMHO

That might be a consideration for a super-low-mileage all-stock NSX. But for most NSXs, I don't think resale value is affected much by having the engine replaced with another stock engine.

 

[docmental]

Mike,
just logged back on, sorry about your engine! I don't think you've done anything wrong.
What is the history on the car?

 

[AU_NSX]

That might be a consideration for a super-low-mileage all-stock NSX. But for most NSXs, I don't think resale value is affected much by having the engine replaced with another stock engine.

In Australia that is a huge consideration. The engine number and VIN are listed on all the registration and insurance documents. If you repalce the engine, people will just assume that you have replaced it with a "cheap" Japanese motor. If you replace the motor in Australia, you can bet on about a 20% reduction in resale value.

 

[MLmotorsport]

What is the history on the car?

I purchased it in Fall '05, had Larry B. inspect it, took it to Johnny V at AoB immediately for some preventative maint., drove it on nice days through the winter, tracked it a few times, let Ian drive it (blew the motor :biggrin: ), and dropped it off at AoB for a heart transplant.
I'm now buying mods like a madman as I wait for the motor. For some reason the high cost of the mods doesn't hurt so much in light of the cost of the new engine.
The real update is probably still a month away. It's been a learning process and I plan to educate everyone on (what I think) the best route is after something like this. I've gotten lots of help from some on this board. What an education!

 

[OLDE GUY]

MLmotorsports - Have you heard what the inspection of the top end showed? Condition of the cams, etc. Is there eveidence of oil starvation at the top end? Just curious,,,Thanks

 

[VintageracerNYC]

Yes please keep us posted on progress!

 

[MLmotorsport]

MLmotorsports - Have yoou heard what the inspection of the top end showed? Condition of the cams, etc. Is there eveidence of oil starvation at the top end? Just curious,,,Thanks

I'm not really good with engine stuff and I'll get the whole story from Bill (the tech on this job) and John when I pick the car up but the cam surfaces were damaged, heads weren't any good either. The cyl walls are ok. The list of replacement items is/was: 1 new piston/rod, crank, heads, & cams. I suppose there could be some unknown damage as we dig into a rebuild (which I think I will do) but thats the list so far. I'll definitely post more details once all is said and done.

 

[DDozier]

Very, Very Sorry.

I agree with Ken, Putnam is not the track I would be worried about oil starvation due to high G loads, turn 8 is not likely the cause of your oil issue, and even a Pro-Driver on street tires, will still be driving the car under the limitation of those tires or you would be off the track more than on. There is more to this puzzle.

What were the track temps like that day?

I was wondering if they have torn down the motor enough to inspect the oil pump gears. I believe our stock oil pump gears are cast then machined, leaving them another weak link in the oil system. Replacing the gear during your rebuild with the billet unit from Dali/SOS/Comptech may be good insurance if you intend to track her again. An over-rev from mis-shift or foaming oil in the pump can cause the gear to fracture and eventually fail.

All the best, and keep your fellow trackers up to date on your findings.

Dave

 

[docmental]

I'm now buying mods like a madman as I wait for the motor. For some reason the high cost of the mods doesn't hurt so much in light of the cost of the new engine.

You are a sick little man! You are in need of some serious psychotherapy!:biggrin: :biggrin: