Comptechs Best NSX not near good enough (C&D)

[NetViper]

Originally posted by bill92nsx:
Especially when stock Mustangs and Camaros and Vettes can be had with at least 350hp for a fraction of the price. And it reflects this in their sales.

Well, Considering the camaro/firebirds have ALWAYS been outsold by the mustang (2:1) and the mustang has always had a lot less power (until 2003), i would say that theory is not valid. The camaro from day one had more HP then the NSX, but it sales slowly declined every year until it went out of production. This just proves there are more to buyers minds than power when it comes to sports cars.

 

[Jimbo]

Bill,

I didn't say that if the NSX had a Ferrari badge it would sell large numbers. Heck, Ferraris don't even sell in large numbers.

Honda could most certainly build something that would be equal and surpass the 360. I have no doubt about that.

BUT.

People would still buy Ferraris because of the name.

Honda can't compete with the Ferrari name but they certainly could compete with the vehicles.

The trick for Honda is to offer that unique value proposition of building a vehicle that on paper competes with Ferrari and the other high end sports cars...but does so at an attractive price.

-Jim

------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by NetViper:
The camaro from day one had more HP then the NSX

Not from Day 1. The top version Camaro, usually called the Z28, steadily increased in power over the years. In 1991, the year the NSX was introduced with 270 hp, the Z28 had 230 hp. In 1993 that was bumped to 275 hp, so at that point it exceeded the NSX. In 1997, when the NSX power increased to 290 hp, the Z28 had only 285. The Z28 took back the power advantage the following year, when it increased to 305.

 

[ALLAN]

i think honda is stuck between a rock and a hardplace. if they offer great performance, on par with a z06 corvette, with say an equal pricetag of say 50,000, then the car will lose its exclusivity and youll see them on every street corner. this would eliminate buyers such as me, who dont want to see themselves coming and going.

on the other hand, they could build a super high performance car, one with extreme levels of performance with a price comperable to the super exotics.this again is a problem because people wont spend that kind of money for a honda-acura.also, im speaking in terms of 360 modena prices 150,000, not lambo murcielago or ferrari 575 300,000 prices.this again eleminates buyers such as me, since id never spend that kind of money for a honda.

scenario#3. honda comes out with an ultra radical design, ferrari enzo or mclaren f1 performance with a great warranty, and a steady flow of aftermarket equipment. price tag=150,000. i'm in, sign me up.

to answer some questions, my old diablo was a 92, now i have a 98.
my 308's and 328's were all fuel injected.

swishhh, thats one reason why i like lambos more than ferraris, they use timing chains, not belts and it eliminates that one most costly aspect of supercar maintenence. although it is true, a belt change in a 308 is super easy, as is a clutch replacement.

 

[ALLAN]

also, i think vw had a good idea with the W12. that was going to be a ultra performance car, 220mph with a 120,000 price tag. it had great styling(except for that huge vw emblem which i would of taken off) and i was a definate buyer on that one. too bad they killed it.

if honda could take that car and make it themselves....

also judging by the latest news on the nsx hybrid... i dont think any of us will have to worry. those who think the nsx is the greatest car on earth will keep it, and others will move on. and the hybrid will be able to be had for 20,000 below sticker!

 

[Jimbo]

"....i think honda is stuck between a rock and a hardplace. if they offer great performance, on par with a z06 corvette, with say an equal pricetag of say 50,000, then the car will lose its exclusivity and youll see them on every street corner. this would eliminate buyers such as me, who dont want to see themselves coming and going..."

Like I offered earlier there is a compromise position. Honda doesn't have to compete with Chevy head on with price on the Z06-C5. They can charge $10K-$20K more. A $65K NSX would not be as prevalent as the Corvette. Honda doesn't even have the capacity to build more than 6,000 NSXs a year (probably less if you now take into account their 2 door hybrid).

"...on the other hand, they could build a super high performance car, one with extreme levels of performance with a price comperable to the super exotics.this again is a problem because people wont spend that kind of money for a honda-acura.also, im speaking in terms of 360 modena prices 150,000, not lambo murcielago or ferrari 575 300,000 prices.this again eleminates buyers such as me, since id never spend that kind of money for a honda...."

And with your last statement you clearly define the problem. There's a lot of people for whom name and marque is more important than the car or the engineering.

Just by saying you would never spend "that kind of money for a Honda" indicates that you associate some kind of stigma or lack of status with the name. And I realize that no matter what Honda does, they won't change that impression in some people. And it wouldn't matter if the next NSX trounced the 360 or not.

-Jim

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1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html

[This message has been edited by Jimbo (edited 17 August 2002).]

 

[cojones]

Originally posted by huckster:
hey ken, i love the seats. do you like the seats? i wouldnt want to change the seats unless i was tracking all the time.

The OE seats are great GT-car seats, but IMO not supportive enough for heavy-duty track work. The difficulty in fitting a true anti-sub strap is also a downside... much rather prefer something like the Recaro P911-GT3 seats that were posted elsewhere.

for anyone interested i'll gladly review the proven nsx ingress/egress partial body building method.
LOL... that thread ALONE can surpass the "Scottsdale" thread

 

[ALLAN]

yes jimbo, but you missed the statement under which i stated that in a certain aspect i WOULD purchase a honda.

 

[anvil]

Re: Camaro Z28.

First year 1967.
http://www.67z28.com/history.htm

Quote:

"Horsepower was listed at 290 at 5800 rpm nominal. It's important to keep that word nominal in mind, because it means the 290 figure was just something somebody plugged into Chevy's spec sheets. It might just as well have been 300 or 350 or 400 bhp. Most, if not all, Z-28 302's put out more than 290 bhp and 290 foot-pounds of torque at 4200 rpm.

Actual horsepower depended a lot on which intake and exhaust manifolds you chose, which carburetor(s), and what internal mods you pursued. No actual dyno figures were ever released by Chevrolet for the 302-cid Z-28 engine, but the auto magazines didn't hesitate to speculate. Their estimates ranged from a realistic 350 bhp in ROAD & TRACK to 370-plus in SPORTS CAR GRAPHIC to 400 bhp in CAR LIFE. All-out, blueprinted racing versions, like those built by Traco and Yunick, probably delivered in the neighborhood of 450 bhp, which took some heavy tinkering to pull from 302 cid and still expect reliability."

anvil

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by cojones:
The OE seats are great GT-car seats, but IMO not supportive enough for heavy-duty track work.

I think they're great for the track, too. I've never experienced any lack of support or any other problems with the seats in all my track events.

No offense to those who have replaced them with racing buckets, which may be even better on the track but are less than comfortable for some of us wide of girth and not the greatest solution on the street...

Hey, nobody noticed that in this thread, we long ago broke the NSXprime record for most posts in a topic - which we would have done even without the ones about the seats. We're already well over 200 posts, with no sign of stopping.

Maybe this topic should have its own forum, given the variety of subject matter.

 

[NetViper]

Originally posted by nsxtasy:
In 1997, when the NSX power increased to 290 hp, the Z28 had only 285. The Z28 took back the power advantage the following year, when it increased to 305.

Ken, I meant the current body style. But you get the point... even with all that HP, it could never outsell the mustang, which had 215 in the GT and only 265 vs the camaro's 305 in 2002.

On a related note...I still think that Car & Driver TV review of the NSX, where they said the camaro stole the NSX's thunder, is completely rediculous. I think what stole the NSX's thunder was the price increase without offering much else.

 

[Jimbo]

Yeah, Allan, well I guess they don't have too many Lambo owners over on the Lambo forum who display a NSX avatar and who spends the majority of their posts being critical of the Lambos, instead of spending most (not all) of their time focusing on the positive aspects of the car corresponding to the forum to which they belong.

-Jim

------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html

 

[ALLAN]

haha jimbo, i guess not!

hey i just post my personal opinions on the cars. they are my opinions based on personal experiences and judgements. i do so on every other forum. if the lotus guys say something about the nsx that i dont feel is true, i let them know. if some people dont agree with my views, well thats what makes this world interesting.

 

[ALLAN]

also jimbo, should i change my avatar to a picture of all my cars, like you, or in my case would i be showing off? the lambo is my avatar, because it is my favorite. i would dump the nsx and lotus in a canal to keep it, without ever missing either of the two.

 

[Jimbo]

Allan,

No, not at all. I personally don't find your avatar bothersome or antagonistic, I was just making an observation, that's all.

All cars have pros and cons and people create forums to share their enthusiasm for their cars. It's therefore no surprise to discover that people get protective and pedantic and it's also no surprise that your avatar and criticism of NSX do rub some people here the wrong way.

IMHO, if you discussed your NSX more often and the things you DO like about your NSX then attitudes would be different.

-Jim

------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html

 

[anvil]

Allan,

Didn't Lotus make kit cars at one time? I seem to remember that the "Super 7" was one?

As a Lotus owner/fan shouldn't you stand up for kit car manufacturers?

anvil

 

[NSX TT]

Originally posted by ALLAN:
also, i think vw had a good idea with the W12. that was going to be a ultra performance car, 220mph with a 120,000 price tag. it had great styling(except for that huge vw emblem which i would of taken off) and i was a definate buyer on that one. too bad they killed it.

ALLAN HAVE YOU SEEN THE VIDEO OF LAMBO MURCIELAGO RACING WITH A SUPRA AND VETTE?

 

[ALLAN]

i really havent been a long time lotus fan. i always thought they were cool, but never really had dreams of owning one. there is only one lotus model that i do like, that the esprit turbo. the super 7, i think was an older lotus that theyve now brought back with unbelievable handling and acceleration, along with vintage style. whether its a kit car or not, thats beyond me. i have no idea. the lotus to me is more like the nsx, a car i like, a car i will have fun with, but will ultimately trade in for something else.
you can take pot shots at car manufactures forever- ferraris are fiats, lambos are tractors, and hondas are lawn mowers, or the little 1970's honda cvcc with the front wheel drive that all the kids in school made fun of my dad for owning.

 

[ALLAN]

nsxtt, yes i saw that video a long time ago. the lambo stays pretty close to the supra, which has a slight lead, and the corvette gets smoked but as theyre racing the person filming the video starts to zoom in on the murcielago. in later posts they say they were realing the lambo in, and that they werent ready to race. its a modified z06 they used to race with.either way, the lambo looked awesome and it was the lambo that the driver of the z06 was bowing to.

 

[anvil]

Allan,

I was not deriding you or Lotus. Just thought you might like to know that Lotus did make kit cars for a long time, particularly in the early days. It cut costs and made quick cars affordable to the less fortunate. Dot.com empires were not so prevalent then as in the nineties, so young folk did not usually think in terms of porsches, jags or even alfas. What's to criticize about Lotus actions then?

anvil

 

[NetViper]

What is the production volume of the lotus TT? Is it similar to the NSX? 200 a year or so?

I would like to checkout a V8tt one day. I have always like the esprit ever since pretty woman, but EVERY magazine I ever read said "if you want a mid-engine car done right, chose the NSX". Of course, that was before the V8tt and I haven't really seen any comparisons since.

 

[ALLAN]

i have no idea on the production volumes of the esprit v8. im just now starting to research the cars potential.i did just come back from blowing away a Bullit mustang with steeda across the front window though!

the little mr2 turbo. had alot of fun in one of those in my early years.
hks exhaust,air filter,evc and fuel cut defencer=13.20@103. not bad for 1991.now, theres a car with value for the dollar!

 

[Edwardo]

I don't mind the NSX losing to the Vettes and Vipers in that review. Those cars have the most outragreous horsepower I have ever seen on street cars.

The NSX did get five stars for driveability. The latter point is one of the main reasons we all love the NSX. It is the combination of a high quality, easy to drive, exotic-looking car that appeals to all of us.

What is this I see about Bang for the Buck(when talking sheer performance...not all other factors)? I did not know we were talking about Corvettes which can and do run circles around anything just short of perhaps cars costing well over 100k.

To me though, I think the overall experience of a car is the most important criterion to use when purchasing a car. I like the looks, reliability, and performance of the NSX. This is why I am saving all of my money for one.

I guess what I am really saying is that there is no shame in losing to a Lingenfelter Corvette (or any of these road rockets). As the NSX has many qualities that surpass these cars.

 

[bill92nsx]

wow this thread has done a complete turnaround. As for Lotus building kit cars it was an ingenius way on Louts's part to be exempt from the really heavy taxes put on by the british government. Don't forget it was lotus who shaped Formula 1 the way it is today, aerodynamics, ground effects, lightness equals speed,. Sure someone else could have come along and invented all these if Lotus wasn't around but they still did invent it. How do you think Ferrari and Honda got the idea to build lighter bodies. Back in the sixties they all thought the heavier the car the better it handled and the more downforce it created. Out of the blue came this little putput Lotus and blew the doors off the competition. I am not praising Lotus but they do deserve a place in history. If you want to see a car that steals the thunder of the NSX do not look any further than the Elise, which is the most praised car out there. Imagine throwing the Esprit s4s engine in their (300hp) and that car will be untouchable. I have seen the video where ti keeps up with the F40 on everything except the straights. As for the v8tt it is detuned so as not to destroy the transaxle (the esprit's weakest link). Why Lotus does not listen and correct this problems is a whole different thread. it seems to be run by micky mouse and they are trying to screw up in the worst way possible on purpose. But like I said that is a whole different thread. I would hate to see the NSX go down like this. It is a great car but it is a little low on power. If you don't agree with me look at the threads in this forum. About 90% of them are how to extract more power.

 

[cojones]

Originally posted by ALLAN:
also jimbo, should i change my avatar to a picture of all my cars, like you, or in my case would i be showing off? the lambo is my avatar, because it is my favorite.

I never compare other motorcars to the one in my avatar, because they would all come up short