GM to Ax 30,000 Jobs, Close 12 Facilities

[zahntech]

I never thought about the coolness of cars and employees, just used them for a comparison(this is a car site). Well IMHO, you posting about why pay a guy screwing a door panel on 50k, when you have now idea how hard these people work, or understand the condition of U.S. car plants, is not cool either.

Just because you work hard does not meen you deserve to be paid more than the market can bear.

and I have worked in the auto industry for the last 16 years and I know a little about how it works. :wink:


But anyhow you are obviously a Union man all the way so there is no point duscussing this any further as you have your idea of how things work and I have mine. this is the USA and everybody is intitled to their opinion ...the future only knows what is instore for the labor Unions and the companys they are attached to, time will tell.

 

[Ko-nsx]

[/QUOTE]Just because you work hard does not meen you deserve to be paid more than the market can bear.[/QUOTE]
So the auto makers can't afford to pay an employee 20 bucks and hour? I don't believe A-Rod deserved to be paid 265 million over 7(?) years for awinging a bat at a fastball, but i wouldn't blame him if his team lost a world series.

and I have worked in the auto industry for the last 16 years and I know a little about how it works. :wink:

Blue collar or white collar? Assembly worker or mechanic?


[/QUOTE]But anyhow you are obviously a Union man all the way so there is no point duscussing this any further as you have your idea of how things work and I have mine. this is the USA and everybody is intitled to their opinion ...the future only knows what is instore for the labor Unions and the companys they are attached to, time will tell.[/QUOTE]

Im more man than "union man all the way." I got a job at chyrsler, they needed electricians and i had to join the union. Just like im more of a car guy than an nsx guy. I really like the Nsx, but, the 911, Z06's and supras sit high with me as well(for their purpose). Simply put, since you don't want to discuss this further :smile: , I respect the intended purpose for unions. i just think its bull that when a conglomerate as big as GM, or any other big company was making a profit off a certain system, then did nothing to stay on top of changing trends to help the system, they blame and stereotype the unions..........they were factored in every aspect of the production and conception of it when it was selling and the co made money.
Now the money is low and the want cut jobs and say "the unions are breaking us", of course those big salaries and golden parachutes are just pennies. The future of america should be interesting :biggrin:

 

[zahntech]

Blue collar, mechanic

I respect the intended purpose for unions. :

Labor laws both federal and state made the Unions unessasary years and years ago.


Dodge must be paying you pretty well if you can drive a 2000 NSX.

I know I can't afford one

 

[Ko-nsx]

Blue collar, mechanic





Labor laws both federal and state made the Unions unessasary years and years ago.

Just asking , what do mechanics in Seattle make? Local honda/acura dealerships charge about 85 per hour.

 

[zahntech]

I work for an independent Japanese auto chain of shops right now the techs do anywhere from 40-100k depending on how motivated and proficient they are.

the last dealer I worked for was an Infiniti dealer and the shop rate was 127$ per hour.

 

[len3.8]

I work for an independent Japanese auto chain of shops right now the techs do anywhere from 40-100k depending on how motivated and proficient they are.

the last dealer I worked for was an Infiniti dealer and the shop rate was 127$ per hour.

Motivated and proficient at what? Doing the job correctly or getting the job out the door? I just don't see why a regular mechanic (Auto) should make over $50K....:wink:

However, the masses feel that they should so they pay the darn $127 for service.. I would love to see the national service ratings for jobs completed with even a 60% satisfaction rating from these particular shops...
As well as what jobs the Techs performed when they got these ratings... I wanna know why I can go to Jiffy lube and get my oil(s) changed for 79.99 with an air filter... But the local Acura, Porsche, Toyota dealer wants me to pay from $250-$550... Why? Is it based on Motivation and Proficiency? Hell no it's based on what the Client is willing to pay, The profit margins are what drive the income levels.

The income levels achieved or wanting to be achieved determines the product's final value... Management argues or negotiates with the skilled person doing the labor to determine what it will cost them to produce the final results that their clientel, on average, will pay. Hoping that the upside will afford them the growth margins needed to sustain as a business.
With those margins they can expand the business, pocket it and buy whatever, or invest it to receive residuals.


Zanntech's Quote:

how is 50k+ per year an "honest days pay for an honest days work"? when you are talking about mostly persons with only a high school diploma and on the job training?..no matter how fast the line is moving attaching door panels is not worth 50k per year and never will be.

fairness? ?? how is it "fair" that I work my butt off the get training and experience to do my job and then I cant make as much money as some guy who doesn't have the training and experience just because he has worked at that particular shop longer?..how is that f#%kinf fair?

So how can you justify what someone makes based on their education or what you perceive as a lack of?
Your opinion is that they are not ever going to represent 50K against the bottom line, and it's not fair to you because you work your butt off and get training, but yet you don't make as much? You have to go to College or a technical school to be merited a decent salary?

Welcome to the real world, unless you are in the position to attain your worth or stipulate your worth and actually receive it, you are getting paid what others feel you are worth.. You are are either getting what their market will bare, or what their competitors are paying their labor. AFTER, they pay themselves (Including that vacation home) they determine what you will get (As little as they can offer), which in my opinion, is not worth anywhere close to $100K.:wink: I hate giving over a $100 per hour to someone that is plugging a machine to my OBDII port , only to be told that the CEL is on because the damn Gas cap is loose due to a leaking seal...(Just a wild example)...

Sorry for the rant and swaying off topic.. But Zanntech your issues are not with the union(s) based on the comment above.. Sounds like a difference in opinion of what you feel someone's day of work is worth...

Another Quote by Zann:

Dodge must be paying you pretty well if you can drive a 2000 NSX.

I know I can't afford one

Then you don't want one.. That is what my father would tell me. You can have anything you are willing to pay for.
<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

As far as KO-NSX and his 2000, I will answer with what I know... HE IS ALWAYS AT WORK, 3 jobs and other interests. That is how it is usually done... I know this because we have worked side by side a few times..You see the thing that wipes a lot of hard workers out are getting true necessities, Health care, Dental, 401s ect... Those can get quite unaffordable to the self employed person.. So you get into a field that allows you the lattidude to do that as well as work other interests...

I have issues with unions as well, but I never tell the little guy at the bottom that they are not worth what they are getting unless they do a shitty job... The market usually corrects costs, so I just adjust my lifestyle when they are out of line, based on my budget...

Also, A used NSX is not expensive, please.. you can pick them up for less than 30K, Hyundai (SP) range..

 

[Modernceo]

I bought a good amount of Toyota stock nearly two years ago as I saw this coming with GM some time ago.

Toyota has appreciated nicely, and with GM announcing the layoffs, etc, Toyota has jumped nearly 3 percent in the last two days. Im happy ! Sad to hear about GM as they are part of the home team, but this is an investment with my money !! So I have to go with whoevers going to have the lead !

 

[zahntech]

Motivated and proficient at what? Doing the job correctly or getting the job out the door? I just don't see why a regular mechanic (Auto) should make over $50K....:wink:

However, the masses feel that they should so they pay the darn $127 for service.. I would love to see the national service ratings for jobs completed with even a 60% satisfaction rating from these particular shops...


So how can you justify what someone makes based on their education or what you perceive as a lack of?
Your opinion is that they are not ever going to represent 50K against the bottom line, and it's not fair to you because you work your butt off and get training, but yet you don't make as much? You have to go to College or a technical school to be merited a decent salary?

I hate giving over a $100 per hour to someone that is plugging a machine to my OBDII port , only to be told that the CEL is on because the damn Gas cap is loose due to a leaking seal...(Just a wild example)...





Also, A used NSX is not expensive, please.. you can pick them up for less than 30K, Hyundai (SP) range..

The chain of shops that I work for has a nationwide "Customer Service Index" company doing surveys and currently of the 8 shops in the chain 4 are in the top 10 out of thousands of shops nationwide, the shop that I work in has a 98.9% customer satisfaction...if a shop only had 60% rating it would not be in business very long.

Each techs "CSI" is tracked, if it drops below 90% for more than 2 months the tech is given a repremand and whatever training the management thinks will help the issue...if the poor performance continues the tech is let go.

50k on the bottom line? last year I personally produced $689,876.12 Gross for my employer. (these things are tracked) if it can be calculated that a auto manufacturing line employee can have that sort of effect on the gross for the company than maybe they are worth what they are getting paid.

The shop I work for charges 0.0$ to attach a scan tool to your OBD2 car and tell you what the code is.

A used 2000 NSX in good condition cannot be purchased for 30k.

 

[len3.8]

Quote Zanntech, out of context:

50k on the bottom line? last year I personally produced $689,876.12 Gross for my employer. (these things are tracked)
I cropped your original post

$690K from one employee? I am guessing these are shop tickets, so I will base it as such...

So you are generating about 1890 per day (Based on 365 days, I don't know what your work schedule is) So your per day, I am assuming, is much higher on a regular schedule.
So you want ,what 10%? of what you produced? Have you asked your employer for this?

He would probably laugh to himself, due to the margin being what it is... So what would you have to produce to make the 10%, that would be great pay? )I know you never said 10%) Just picked a number based on the 50K issue and what would be 30+% more... Seeing that you have been trained by ???

if it can be calculated that a auto manufacturing line employee can have that sort of effect on the gross for the company than maybe they are worth what they are getting paid.

You are saying that it is caculable, by the fact that you are saying that they are not worth the 50K.. either that or you are basing it totally based on how you regard them and their value.

As a whole yes they count towards the gross, however their actions are controlled, their processes are controlled. What is not controlled is their conviction and mind set when doing the job. Just as anyone else within any other industry.

Unless you know excatly what their job entails physically and mentally, you can not say that it's not worth the 50K per year. (That is merely your opinion.)

Most shops in my area charge for a diagnostic check, They have to pay for the machine and the techs time. That is not my issue, the issue is what is being charged if the car doesn't happen to be under warranty..

As far as a 2000 NSX for 30K, I am sure that you know I was talking about a used NSX.. As far as the 2000 vs a 91~Used), unless you wanted the T-top or the 3.2 and body effects. it is essentially the same car... However if you want the motor and trans, you can just opt for the 97 and pay about 35-40K if you look hard enough...
I will stop on that one, because It is way off topic...

You issue was with the unions and how you felt they were mucking up GM and the 50K earners were not worth it.

I don't know if it were unions, Mis management of assetts by asses, or Too many imports being produced. I just wish that the issue is resolved soon enough, that will allow the 30K - 40K people to become gainfully employed. With GM and Ford's re-structuring, there will be many people to compete for the jobs that are available within the auto industry.. I hope it was a shift in the market that done it, people just demanding a better product and new ideals, a market adjustment.. I have a GM truck, I don't compare it I just use it to pull the hell out of cars, haul cargo, and offroading here and there. It has been no less reliable than anything else in my garage. I could care less about the few fit and trim mis-alignments that are there.

Again, I was looking for someone to convince me that it was the Union's faul that GM is in this position.

 

[zahntech]

So you are generating about 1890 per day (Based on 365 days, I don't know what your work schedule is) So your per day, I am assuming, is much higher on a regular schedule.
So you want ,what 10%? of what you produced? Have you asked your employer for this?

He would probably laugh to himself, due to the margin being what it is...

Unless you know excatly what their job entails physically and mentally, you can not say that it's not worth the 50K per year. (That is merely your opinion.)

I am getting more than 10% of that figure and no my boss is not laughing as it is very hard to find Techs that do good work and do it quickly.

and of course its my opinion as I do not have the figures for how financially productive each line worker is. nor do you.

 

[len3.8]

I am getting more than 10% of that figure and no my boss is not laughing as it is very hard to find Techs that do good work and do it quickly.

and of course its my opinion as I do not have the figures for how financially productive each line worker is. nor do you.

Well you, in my opinion, are overpaid...:wink: However, my opinion holds no warrant in regards to your pay.. I am not the client of your employer..He however thinks you warrant such a high pay, He may very well be afraid of loosing you, so therefore he is probably giving you what you feel you are worth. I doubt it is what he wants to pay, As I feel that anyone that does not have a MBA should make that much $$$s. Just making your point as I understood it vs. the 50K people on the lines...

As far as the numbers the each line worker accounts to the bottom line, if you read my posts, you could figure that I would bet that it is less than the 50K that (has been used here) that they make. GM obviously thought so. However, the long term effects may have shown them otherwise, as those workers will be the first labor to be released... However they had to pay them what the market was demanding to even give it a go.
There are so many more variables within that mix, that you can't point it at assembly or the workers.. You have to look at the product as it has been allowed to be released..
It's not what the market wants, so therefore you as a company will need to adjust to stay in business.

 

[zahntech]

As I feel that anyone that does not have a MBA should make that much $$$s. Just making your point as I understood it vs. the 50K people on the lines...


There are so many more variables within that mix, that you can't point it at assembly or the workers.. You have to look at the product as it has been allowed to be released..
It's not what the market wants, so therefore you as a company will need to adjust to stay in business.

Just because you have an MBA does not mean that you are a profitable employee..


Your second statement here is very very true IMO, the crappy products that GM and others have been producing is the reason they do not sell ..however when you are paying top dollar for wages and benefits to the persons building these crappy cars you just make it that much harder to make any money on them.

I have family in South Dakota and when i visit I notice that foreign cars are rare...unfortunately GM and the other 2 cannot survive on the midwest alone.

 

[Ko-nsx]

Blue collar, mechanic

Labor laws both federal and state made the Unions unessasary years and years ago.
Dodge must be paying you pretty well if you can drive a 2000 NSX.
I know I can't afford one

Please shed light on the labor laws and how they made unions obsolete(years ago).Just for clarity, do you mean UAW or all unions as a whole?

As for my car , there is ore than one way to skin a cat. your statement pertaining to the what i can afford based on what Dodge pays me lets me know you and i are swinging at the same balls, just using different bats. :smile:

 

[WillErickson]

Are you certain (for example, you worked at or managed a Kmart store)? I was sure that some or all Kmart employees were members of UNITE (Union of Needletrades, Industrial and Textile Employees). Perhaps I'm mistaken.

I'm positive. I've had friends (and enemies :smile: ) that worked there. Its possible (but I don't believe so) that maybe their truck drivers or warehouse workers could be, but not the stores, past or present. I work for Wal-Mart, have for 12 years.

Will

 

[zahntech]

Please shed light on the labor laws and how they made unions obsolete(years ago).Just for clarity, do you mean UAW or all unions as a whole?

:

Labor Unions were created to stop employers from abusing employees IE "the company store" ect ect

not providing healthcare benifits is not "abuse" IMO

and state and the federal government are passing laws about those issues too.

 

[zahntech]

As for my car , there is ore than one way to skin a cat. your statement pertaining to the what i can afford based on what Dodge pays me lets me know you and i are swinging at the same balls, just using different bats. :smile:

not quite sure what you meen here but if you are making it work for you thats great...with my 2 kids and a mortgage a 2000 NSX is not in the cards :frown:

 

[len3.8]

Just because you have an MBA does not mean that you are a profitable employee..

Exactly my point... Because having one doesn't make you a good employee. Performance should come into play when you are being paid, if that company has used that as one of it's measures for pay. If the company is basing it on market rates, then you will get market labor. Out of that market you may get lucky with an employee, exploit him/her until he screams $$$$$, then decide to keep him or replace him..

But I guarantee anyone assigned to watch that bottom line weighs all costs before giving away those dollars.. It's sadly the way a lot of businesses have decided to operate.. Give the customer what they will accept.. Not what they are paying for... or want...

Your second statement here is very very true IMO, the crappy products that GM and others have been producing is the reason they do not sell ..however when you are paying top dollar for wages and benefits to the persons building these crappy cars you just make it that much harder to make any money on them.

I have family in South Dakota and when i visit I notice that foreign cars are rare...unfortunately GM and the other 2 cannot survive on the midwest alone.

The customers have decided that they want their body panels to more aligned, the cloth or leather to be of higher quality.. A bolder or different style. They have either decided to stay in their current car or move to another mark.. It would be that Toyota/Honda has the greater share of the market out of the JDM products. However all together they only make 3 cars that I, personally, would even consider buying...

I didn't buy the NSX for it's great use of leather.. I bought it because it had the style that I liked.. I was able to look beyond the lack of power, the use of cheaper products in the interior... It simply worked for me...

I think that GM fell into a pattern.. They have come out with some diverse product in the recent past.. I think they should continue to do that.. I think that style sells the car.
People put up with a lot of crap if it is something they really like..

They need to come back to their core and be able to expand on their demographics. Very hard to do when some people are extremely loyal to the other marks, even if given equal products, a lot will go back to the origin of that product to make it's decision.. How do you combat that or even compete with that if you are producing a sub par product in the eyes of your core customers?

I don't know, but I am sure that anu of the big 3 could turn things around with a wider thought process.. Something better than just signing off the labor.. But they have to answer to the stock holders... They want those High dividends no matter what else is at stake...

Off my soap box, It's lunch time...:smile:
Respect to all...except you KO---You are union...:biggrin:

 

[nicholas421]

Delphi pay: $76/hour; firm says compensation doubles its rivals'
By Jason Roberson, Detroit Free Press

Nov. 26—Delphi Corp. — the employer in bankruptcy of 14,700 Michiganders — said a new study it commissioned shows it pays its unionized workers $76 an hour including benefits, double what its competitors pay, and $11 an hour more than workers received in 2004.

Delphi proposed Nov. 15 cutting that $76 an hour figure to about $35 an hour.

"We simply want what they have already given to our competitors," Delphi spokesman Lindsey Williams said Friday of the company's recent proposal.

Pay and benefits are the main issues between Delphi and the United Auto Workers, which has called the proposed cuts an "insult. " The UAW has not ruled out a strike if talks fail.

When contacted Friday, Paul Krell, head of communications for Delphi's largest union, the UAW, would not comment on Delphi's pay claims. He repeated a Nov. 7 statement by UAW President Ron Gettelfinger.

"We are outraged by Delphi's attempt to use the bankruptcy process to dictate the radical destruction of the living standards of America's industrial workers, while at the same time it plans to reward some 500 'key employees' with up to 10 percent of the company's stock and cash bonuses totaling $87.9 million once Delphi emerges from bankruptcy," Gettelfinger said Nov. 7.

The union plans to hash out pay and other issues with Delphi in bankruptcy court hearings beginning Jan. 5.

" We will keep our options open," Gettelfinger said Nov. 16 when asked whether the union would strike.

Delphi has demanded that its 34,000 U.S. hourly workers accept an average base wage of $12.50, down 53 percent from an average base hourly wage of $27. Delphi's Nov. 15 proposal includes higher out-of-pocket health- care costs for workers, frozen pension benefits, fewer vacation days, restricted overtime and no vision or dental insurance.

According to a study Delphi commissioned, in part to thwart claims that it is being unfair to workers, Delphi pays its workers $76.46 per hour, up from the previously reported wage of $65 an hour. That breaks down to a wage of $26.97 an hour for a first-year employee, $26.86 an hour for benefits such as health care and vacation days and $22.63 in legacy costs, which include retirement health- care costs and costs past the obligation of worker s compensation.

Delphi workers are paid more than average hourly workers when benefits are considered.

Nationwide, employers from all industries pay their hourly workers $24.24 per hour, which includes benefits but not legacy costs, according to the most recent U.S. Department of Labor study, published in June 2005. An average wage of $17.21 an hour accounted for 71 percent of the total hourly compensation, while benefits, at $7.03, made up the remaining 29 percent. Wages, as a percent of total compensation, declined during the past five years from 73 percent in 2000.

Within geographic regions, total compensation costs ranged from $20.42 an hour in the East South Central division to $28.14 in the Pacific division. Employers in the division that includes Michigan paid their employees $24.96 an hour — $17.27 in wages and $7.69 in total benefits.

In Michigan's division, health care, at $1.90 an hour, was the most expensive benefit employers provided workers.

Benefits defined in the labor- department study include paid leave for vacation, holidays and sick days; overtime, shift differentials and bonuses; life and health insurance, disability pay; retirement and savings; Social Security, unemployment insurance and worker s compensation.

Terry Wilson admits he is overpaid, but he said it's Delphi's fault.

The 48-year-old UAW hourly worker makes $29 an hour at Delphi's Flint plant producing air filters. Wilson has worked for Delphi for 18 years. Two years ago, before his plant started cutting back on overtime, Wilson made $90 an hour on some holidays.

"I've pretty much written my own check for the past 10 years," Wilson said. "It was pretty cool. You come in on any given Sunday, work 20 hours for $60 an hour, and not do a hell of a lot."

In 2004, Wilson received nearly $80,000, including overtime. He can rattle off coworkers who received $120,000 last year.

"Since the day of the spinoff, this was a common practice, and they did nothing," Wilson said of Delphi's management.

On average, Delphi says its auto- supplier competitors, who are represented by the UAW and International Union of Electrical Workers, pay their workers $22.60 an hour — $13.98 for a base wage, $7.85 in benefits and 77 cents in legacy costs.

Union leaders have complained that Delphi's figures do not include its larger competitors, such as Visteon Corp., a former supplier division of Ford Motor Co .

Visteon's costs should improve significantly from its deal with Ford to take back some of its plants. Visteon's average hourly wage rates for North American operations will decline from $38 to $17, reports Fitch Ratings, a credit rating agency based in New York . Delphi filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection Oct. 8, after efforts to win concessions from its labor unions and a multibillion-dollar bailout from former owner GM failed.

If the unions reject Delphi's proposal — which is likely since union leaders called it an "insult" on Nov. 16 and said they would not take a vote on it — then Delphi will file a motion with the bankruptcy court Dec. 16 to eliminate union contracts and to allow it to impose changes at will.

 

[steveny]

My puts are still on the profit side and I think I will hold them a bit longer.

 

[zahntech]

Very interesting that Delphi is the producer of alternators for the accord and odyssey 3.0l V6 engines ....the alternators have a 74% failure rate by 60k miles................I'm sure paying people 78$ per hour to build crap is a very attractive bisiness model.

 

[Ko-nsx]

Very interesting that Delphi is the producer of alternators for the accord and odyssey 3.0l V6 engines ....the alternators have a 74% failure rate by 60k miles................I'm sure paying people 78$ per hour to build crap is a very attractive bisiness model.

You knew i was gonna get you :biggrin: You definitely have a small bat. Try not to throw that shoulder out swinging it. :smile:
Again this is an ASSEMBLY plant, Delphi and its purchasers decided to buy cheaper materials, to cut cost and increase profits for shareholders. It was budgeted since delphi's conception that they would use union labor to assemble the product they conceptualized. Whatever their payroll is, is built in the price of their product(how many units have they sold over the last few years?) If one worker made 120k a year, what did everyone else make? If the bulls paid MJ 30 million for 1 season, what do you think they bought in?

Nationwide, employers from all industries pay their hourly workers $24.24 per hour, which includes benefits but not legacy costs, according to the most recent U.S. Department of Labor study, published in June 2005. An average wage of $17.21 an hour accounted for 71 percent of the total hourly compensation, while benefits, at $7.03, made up the remaining 29 percent. Wages, as a percent of total compensation, declined during the past five years from 73 percent in 2000.

Within geographic regions, total compensation costs ranged from $20.42 an hour in the East South Central division to $28.14 in the Pacific division. Employers in the division that includes Michigan paid their employees $24.96 an hour — $17.27 in wages and $7.69 in total benefits.

In Michigan's division, health care, at $1.90 an hour, was the most expensive benefit employers provided workers.

Benefits defined in the labor- department study include paid leave for vacation, holidays and sick days; overtime, shift differentials and bonuses; life and health insurance, disability pay; retirement and savings; Social Security, unemployment insurance and worker s compensation

 

[zahntech]

In 2004, Wilson received nearly $80,000, including overtime. He can rattle off coworkers who received $120,000 last year.

.

there was obviously more than 1 person that made 120k per year.

and many that made 70k+.

now, the concept that union labor is inefficient and financially disastrous is nothing new, I didn't make it up, stories like this one about Delphi and many many others across the nation have been told for years,,,the #s you give about avg labor costs are very interesting ..I would like to see the figures on what % of blue collar laborers were Union in 1950 and how many are in 2005.
anyway I for one am sure there are many honest upstanding Union laborers
here in these United States however the concept of Union labor is outdated and will become extinct..given a few years.