HP Numbers

[kpond]

len3.8,

Let me pick on you for a sec. What you ask for is absolutely meaningless... and encourages the same naive comparisons of peak HP. To what end? Too many people care about this and it is almost meaningless. Let me give you an example. My BBSC (N1K @ 6psi) is peaking at just a tad over 400HP. I also have some dyno charts from a GroupeM showing a peak HP of approximately 360HP. Just by looking at the dyno results I can assure you that this GroupeM car can kick my BBSC ass - no questions asked. Why?

Looking at the dyno plots (and providing you very rough numbers) the GroupeM is producing 30-50 HP MORE than the BBSC from 3000 rpm up to about ~7000 rpm. 7000 rpm is where the BBSC crosses the GroupeM HP curve and races toward 400 HP. In looking at the curves, it is so obvious which is superior. There is a HUGE area between the two curves from 3K to 7K and then there is this very small triangle from 7K to 8K where the BBSC is on top. So, the BBSC gets the bragging rights for peak HP and will firmly get its ass completely kicked by the 360HP GroupeM.

Oh yeah, don't forget that I am biased in my opinion. I'm a happy BBSC owner - but pragmatic about systems that produce more useable power. Now, if you want to talk about visibility through the rear window and packaging... there may be a different story.

OK, end of soapbox... just tired of meaningless comparisons especially when they may influence newbies to make the wrong conclusions.

 

[sjs]

len3.8,

Let me pick on you for a sec.

And I, you. I know Len well enough to say that he realizes all those things, but besides asking for "bragging numbers" which are fun in their own right, he also made a point of asking for the dyno charts where available. As I stated above and on which you just elaborated, those reflect the shape of the power curves and therefore do have some meaning. Len understands all this but is suffering severe NSX withdrawal and is looking to his support group for reassurance that going with a high output rebuild is the right choice. Just do it Len, then I can live vicariously through you.

 

[len3.8]

Kpondl, no prob, you can pick on me. I don't take it personally.

SJS pretty much stated it correctly..... I am a newbee so to speak, I am just starting to actually understand what you guys are saying when you talk about forced induction, in its entire depth, AF ratios's, Fuel pressure, intake temp, ect. ect..... As SJS stated I did ask for the charts, so I can see as much information as possible, I am sure I know how to read the area under the power curves, I am interested in something as linear as a Groupem, only with more power..... I don't think it's meaningless when people post their results and they have a chart to view, The conversation/discussions that arise after that is purely educational for a new person..... People on this board are good at pointing out BS, and asking questions, I have noticed some of the vague questions get the most replies, in depth discussions have given me pretty of insight...... And yes it's fun when they get into the HP wars..... I am smart enough to ask specific questions when it's time for me to make my decision.....

I am looking to go with a High HP motor... I was merely wanting to see if there were any more Dyno's out there, those that show as much info as possible .... Your statement about your BBSC tells me that yet you show 400hp, it must be at around 75-7800 or so RPM's, being a person that uses my car pretty much on the same track and roads in a constant manner, I wouldn't be interested in the kit as a solution..... With WB's #'s the kit looks more attractive, he has posted and a good discussion is going on in regards to his dyno chart.......

The more people talking the better, as I see it....
And yes I am suffering from NSX withdrawal, but if I keep posting that someone will put a contract out on me.
Also was just trying to get FactorX to come off of their Dyno sheet,
I would love to see a posting of all the big dogs, so it can be disected, for the good of all........

 

[NetViper]

Looking at the dyno plots (and providing you very rough numbers) the GroupeM is producing 30-50 HP MORE than the BBSC from 3000 rpm up to about ~7000 rpm. 7000 rpm is where the BBSC crosses the GroupeM HP curve and races toward 400 HP. In looking at the curves, it is so obvious which is superior. There is a HUGE area between the two curves from 3K to 7K and then there is this very small triangle from 7K to 8K where the BBSC is on top. So, the BBSC gets the bragging rights for peak HP and will firmly get its ass completely kicked by the 360HP GroupeM..

So in a race between a gruppe M and a BBSC you are saying the BBSC will lose bad. I am confused.

Yes, the Gruppe M makes more power across the board, but the BBSC makes more power up high. If you are racing 0-150, the Gruppe M would probably be faster 0-60, but wouldnt the BBSC take over after that? After each shift, the BBSC is still making a lot of power high up. Shouldn't it be faster that way?

 

[kpond]

NetViper,

Yes, the BBSC will lose bad. Virtually the only BBSC advantage is 7K to 8K rpm. So, if you challenge a GroupeM, make sure it is in a roll-on where you both start at 7K and make sure the rule is that the winner is who's ahead when the rev limiter steps in.

Practically, I don't think you can devise a race where the BBSC could win - of course, where all other things are equal.

Think about it. The GM has a SIGNIFICANT advantage from 3K to 7K. The BBSC has the advantage from 7K to 8K.

Let me mess around a bit with my antiquated graphics skills and see if I can post a pic of the dynos overlayed. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no two dynos are the same, different days, different mods, yadda, yadda, yadda. These are all good arguments - I just will try to post something to illustrate the large performance characteristics difference between positive displacement SC's and the Vortec/Paxton units.

I think that is what the audience here is looking for anyway.

 

[kpond]

OK, where here's a chart that illustrates the approximate differences in the kits. Note that in this comparison the BBSC is the HP king at 404HP@8K rpm. The CT kits are sandwiched between the GM and the BBSC shown in black. YMMV.

 

[len3.8]

Kpond, Now was that all that hard?
Thanks

 

[PaynNSX]

97 low comp, exhaust, BBSC 10psi
91 stock internals, exhaust, N/A

 

[PaynNSX]

Depends which 400 whp BBSC car you are racing against

 

[sjs]

Depends which 400 whp BBSC car you are racing against

Indeed, although the extra 4psi (an increase of 66%) and AEM had much to do with it. Not that there's anything wrong with that!

BTW, has anyone attempted to get more boost from a GrpM and add an ECU?

 

[BryanZublin]

Originally posted by kpond Practically, I don't think you can devise a race where the BBSC could win - of course, where all other things are equal.

How about top speed contest starting side by side at 160 mph on a very long road.

 

[NetViper]

97 low comp, exhaust, BBSC 10psi is very impressive. But it is A LOT of money. I would think a Turbo would be a better way to go. Even a CTSC highboost Kit produceds similar amounts of HP and TQ for a lot less $$$.

 

[WOODY]

who drops below 4500 rpm when shifting when racing anyways? maybe in the 5 speed, but not in the 6 speed. The starting rpm of the initial gear is the primary advantage or disadvantage to each system.

 

[sjs]

who drops below 4500 rpm when shifting when racing anyways? maybe in the 5 speed, but not in the 6 speed. The starting rpm of the initial gear is the primary advantage or disadvantage to each system.

True, you drop that low on an up-shift only from 1-2 in the 5-spd, but on a road course you could certainly find yourself exiting a turn at those RPM or less, especially in 2nd. But still, look at the graphs above. Assuming for the moment that they are relatively accurate, then it takes only a glance to see which have more power under the curve from there to redline. As already noted, the Grp M wins hands down with a huge margin from 4500 (and long before) all the way to 6700 before leveling off and crossing the BBSC line at 7200. That’s an advantage for a span of 2700 RPM and a disadvantage for only 800. I’m not assuming they are accurate given the quick & dirty overlay (still a great effort, and may well be right), but if they are even close then there is no doubt which one should win on acceleration.

 

[kpond]

sjs,

I agree with you that we must make an assumption that the graphs are relatively accurate. From 100K', I think these are the "relative" curves of the kits we commonly see here. They are also representative of what you would conceptually expect from the type of blower employed.

 

[Turbo NSX]

How come the torque line is not represented on the graph for the BBSC and the Gruppe M?

I don't think any version of the BBSC would stand up to a gruppe m. I have driven one and it was damn quick. The torque of the other forced induction kits will kill the BBSC in just about every race.

 

[sjs]

sjs,

I agree with you that we must make an assumption that the graphs are relatively accurate. From 100K', I think these are the "relative" curves of the kits we commonly see here. They are also representative of what you would conceptually expect from the type of blower employed.

Agreed, 100%. I was simply trying to head off the inevitable challenge, silent or otherwise, that the overlay effort may have been significantly flawed. The power curve shapes are fine, but if one was 10hp high and another 10hp low, things tighten up to a still significant but less dramatic difference.

 

[emvanderpol]

Add this to the mix. Both are 6 psi systems. The CTSC is mine (Dyno Dynamic Dynamometer), the BBSC is from the current Novi 2K design (not sure which dyno). Originally posted to show/explain the "area under the curve" issue.

Here is a chart (Page 57) that can give you a more accurate CTSC v. GMSC comparison. Same dyno, same day, different setups, basically the same numbers. But the BBSC was only running 4 psi, and therefore not a good representation of what it can do.

http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Performance/images/NSteXpo2002_DynoReport.pdf

 

[NetViper]

http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Performance/images/NSteXpo2002_DynoReport.pdf

Looking at that, I still think the CTSC is the best way to go.

 

[Gerry Johnson]

This is a dyno sheet from my turbo charged car the day before NSXPO-03, the reason the test started at a higher RPM than normal was do to the unability to get the car strapped down well enough with the Tiatec defuser, we added a 220lb employee to the trunk but it didn't help when we tried starting the test at 3000RPM however it did allow us to start it at a higher RPM. You will notice at around 6500 RPM the drop in the graph, again it started slipping the tires on the rollers. I will be removing the defuser and going back to the dyno when I get my car back from the painters.

 

[len3.8]

Daaaamn, How in the heck do you produce those type numbers for torque? Is it at all possible for the BBSC/CTSC/GM superchargers to produce torque anywhere close to these numbers? Does anyone with a non-turbo car running high boost produce this kind of torque? More so impressive is the power that is available at widely used RPM ranges. Has any supercharged engine come even close to these numbers? Someone with a BBSC posted numbers with the torque at 299 I believe, but the torque plot/graph was not an arc, it was more like a sharp peak on the upper end..... Is it a simple fact that SC's can't produce this kind of torque?..Befor someone thinks I am picking fun.. I have the CTSC high boost, so I am torqueless as well.... I would love to see this chart in it's complete form.... Once you get that thing strapped down it should be a nice pull...... Anyone not seeing this? It's pretty quiet in here right now..... JK.... Nice numbers and information, thanks to all that are willing to show it.... Appreciate it.

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Gerry,

What is the torque scale of this plot? Are we saying ~500 ft. lbs??.

Thanks,
LarryB

 

[NetViper]

Umm... Gerry like rules...

 

[CiaoBoy]

It's pretty quiet in here richt now..... JK.... Nice numbers and information, thanks to all that are willing to show it.... Appreciate it.

I think most everybody is awed into silence after seeing Gerry's plot.

Either that or everybody else is now embarrassed to show their plots. Hehe.

-CiaoBoy

 

[CiaoBoy]

Gerry,

What is the torque scale of this plot? Are we saying ~500 ft. lbs??.

Thanks,
LarryB

Does hp = torque at 5252 rpm? Isn't there some kind of formula like that? Looking at that part of the grab, Gerry's car seems to be producing about 460 hp, so that's probably around 460 ft-lbs? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

-CiaoBoy