HP Numbers

[DRZZZ]

Cost

Sorry to digress.....

How much (approximately) to turn my unmodified '95 into a fire breathin', turbo charged 400+ hp ferrari killer?!!

Thanx

 

[sjs]

Re: Cost

Sorry to digress.....

How much (approximately) to turn my unmodified '95 into a fire breathin', turbo charged 400+ hp ferrari killer?!!

Thanx

People rarely get a direct answer to that often asked question here. You need to speak with the various vendors/shops to discuss options and preferences. For example, at your stated target of 400hp you can probably get away with stock block and internals rather than doing forged pistons, sleeves, etc. But then you have less margin for error and if you want to turn up the boost later you can't. And there are many lesser decisions that add up. You may also be at a cost disadvantage with an OBDII car, but at least there are finally some options. But if you want a real rough ballpark guess, I'll throw one out there. Minimum requirements for a safe 400hp turbo installed and tuned, about $10-11k plus shipping of the car if necessary. For a BBSC, probably about the same installed and tuned, perhaps a bit less if they can still get there without cooler and big blower

 

[CiaoBoy]

I guess the misunderstanding comes from the combination of these two formulae:

HP=Torque x RPM/5252 and
HPafter = ((14.7 + boost)/14.7)*HPbefore

from http://www.superchargersonline.com/faq.asp?Tell=1& being one of the sites mentioning this:


How much power could I expect to gain with a supercharger?
Answer: Roughly, you can expect to gain about the same power difference percentage as you gain induction pressure percentage. The equation is HPafter = ((14.7 + boost)/14.7)*HPbefore. For instance, if you have a 200HP engine and you add 7.5psi boost, you can expect to have about 300HP. This is an estimate, not an exact calculation so take it for what it is worth. In reality, it will likely be just a bit less than that due to inefficiencies and air density losses due to heating. If you are intercooled, you will get closer to this estimated power.

HP before FI and HP after FI is a different topic and a completely different equation. The theory goes, if you add more air, then you can add more fuel and be able to burn that extra fuel. With Len's question, if you add twice as much air (an additional 14.7 psi), that means you ought to be able to add twice as much fuel, and hence, produce twice as much power. These are theoretical scenarios, with real life scenarios differing with theory due to frictional losses, heat losses, and other factors.

TQ before FI and TQ after FI should adhere to the same theory. If you can burn twice as much fuel, then you ought to be producing twice as much torque. Actually, this is the more important equation. Once you are producing twice as much torque, you are naturally producing twice as much HP at the same given RPM in both cases.

The fundamental relationship between TQ and HP is still in effect, whether boosted or not boosted.

HP = TQ * time

If HP is multiplied by 2, TQ will automatically go up 2 times as well.

2 * HP = 2 * TQ * time

Hope this helps.

-CiaoBoy

 

[KGP]

FX Plots

Seems that some fellas who can generate a lot of power have a problem figuring out how to get images on the forum. They asked me to post, so here they are. These are pictures taken with a digital camera, so the quality is not all that great. But, they should be ledgible.

Recent FX 500 dyno run

CTSC NOS dyno run

 

[Dinan M3]

Impressive numbers, but the turbo plot implies a car about as tractable as a big, single-turbo supra and the second plot looks like its spraying. Given these options, I'd go the GJ turbo route myself.

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

Re: Re: FX500 or FX600???

Is that the FX500 running that? Or a different kit?

And, I almost forgot... DAMN!

I will be in Vegas next week and want to check out the cars!

The FX500 produced the numbers. If you are going to be in town please let us know in advance and we can schedule sometime for you. We look foward to meeting you in person.

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

Re: Re: FX500 or FX600???

Way to go guys!!! I knew you'd raise the bar soon, but those top anything I was expecting. What do you see as the practical limit on 93 octane street gas?

Sjs,

To be honest with you we do not know the practical limit on 93 octane for the FX500. We can tell you that it is well above 500hp though As you already know many many factors come into play with the type of fuel you can and cannot use. Btw, give us a ring when you have time to discuss the AEM.

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

Then I know at least two owners who will be challenged, severely.

With that kind of power, suspension tuning and stopping power are critical. In addition, the position of the torque curve and its band plays a significant role in the driving experience.

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

My "Hang-over Quotient Meter" gave a reading of 3000ft. Upon further research, the Geographical dictionary states that the elevation is 2030ft. So it looks like I drank 970 ft more than I realized.

KGP,

I don’t think you want Sig to come visit us that often. “The Hang-over Quotient Meter” was pegged in the red which resulted in a few days of pain. Not even Kobe Burgers could hold off the amount of alcohol that was consumed that night and the following Hangover.

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

Can't say for sure, I wasn't there. I can say that at expo I rode in both cars His and in FactorX's, while both were impressive. His was downright lethal at about 14psi, and he wasn't using nitrous.
I think he stated that that run was at 15psi, I wonder what would happen at 18psi, and using 100 octane....
If porsche , ford, and other can get even HP/Trq numbers, what about Hondas configurations make it hard for you to believe they can't produce those numbers.

Man if that shoot out happens I am front and center.

Len,

At NSXPO we were running 10.5psi on pump gas. At 1bar it is insane! Tuning to make use of that power takes on a whole new meaning. One of our goals was to produce a system capable of 500hp that had the ability to run on pump gas. Making runs for 100oct or C16 will get old and expensive after a while.

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

I don't think he was doubting you Gerry, just curious. (edit: oops, so he just said before I finished this) And I agree that more boost + octane = big HP. F-X was honest about the extra octane to get there. I think we all know that bragging rights are one thing and real-world usable daily power is another. But it's still fun to see the numbers move up to the same territory that other imports have been doing for quite awhile. And I don't think it will be long before a few cars are running around with the ability to turn the wick up this high when they want to. I'm back to measuring under the hood for a small fuel cell to hold the hi-pop.

Sjs,

We will see how usable the power is in a few weeks In terms of power for bragging rights we are just getting started as our turbo is not yet at peak efficiency and the tuning is conservative.

 

[Sig]

Impressive numbers, but the turbo plot implies a car about as tractable as a big, single-turbo supra and the second plot looks like its spraying. Given these options, I'd go the GJ turbo route myself.

Dinan-

There are a few things that are deceiving between that plot and Gerry's. The most signifigant is the horizontal scaling. In Gerry's plot you only have 4700rpms to 6500rpms in a space that is wider than both of the FX plots side by side. If they were both scaled equally, they would look very similar except for the top-end HP of the FX. Which through lower-boost would be brought down. They both reach peak torque within a few hundered rpm's of one another. In addition, the peak hp in Gerry's plot correlates almost exactly to the same hp level in the FX graph. However, the FX plot just keeps going up due to higher boost levels. But I certainly don't the specifics of each kits settings, so this is just a guess.

In addition, I believe Gerry is using a T4 with e trim. This is a slightly smaller turbo than FX's, so the spool is probably 200rpms or so sooner. Of course, this is probably by design to get more power down low. But we can't be sure since the Gerry's car was too much for the dyno under 4000rpms. SO once again, this a just a guess of spool time as it would correlate to turbo size. In the end, both kits appear to be quite efficient.

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

Impressive numbers, but the turbo plot implies a car about as tractable as a big, single-turbo supra and the second plot looks like its spraying. Given these options, I'd go the GJ turbo route myself.

Due to the compressed format of the Dynapack the curve looks much steeper than it will appear on a Dynojet/Mustang etc. We took it over to the Dynojet, but could not get an accurate reading. We will try to get another pic of just the torque band stretched out. At 2,500 rpms we produce more torque than a stock nsx. It would be interesting to see a full dyno sheet of the other big players out there.

 

[KGP]

Impressive numbers, but the turbo plot implies a car about as tractable as a big, single-turbo supra ... Given these options, I'd go the GJ turbo route myself.

I can't imagine anyone wanting to drive around with such power. Objectively it would make sence to say you would opt for a tuning that results in something more drivable. I know I won't tune for these kind of results, but I could. In fact, with how mine is being built I could have even more area under the curve. To say you would opt for the GJ turbo is a subjective decision, and everyone has the ability to choose. But to discount any turbo because it makes too much power seems a bit ridiculous to me. All that is required to make it streetable is a few changes in the boost controls.

 

[donwon]

wow

 

[Dinan M3]

I can't imagine anyone wanting to drive around with such power. Objectively it would make sence to say you would opt for a tuning that results in something more drivable. I know I won't tune for these kind of results. To say you would opt for the GJ turbo is a subjective decision, and everyone has the ability to choose. But to discount any turbo because it makes too much power seems a bit ridiculous to me. All that is required to make it streetable is a few changes in the boost controls.

I think you misunderstood my point. I like the fact of big power. I'm less enthusiastic about the shape of the torque/HP curves. It's pretty tricky to drive a car that more than doubles its power output within a single 1k rpm band. Look at the Tq or HP curves of the other turbo - no such anomolies. Big numbers aren't helpful if you can't usefully put them to the ground. Also, this artifact may or may not be something you can "tune" out because the lack of low/mid band torque may be the consequence of an oversized turbo - fiddling with boost controls won't fix that.

 

[KGP]

I think you misunderstood my point. I like the fact of big power. I'm less enthusiastic about the shape of the torque/HP curves. It's pretty tricky to drive a car that more than doubles its power output within a single 1k rpm band. Look at the Tq or HP curves of the other turbo - no such anomolies. Big numbers aren't helpful if you can't usefully put them to the ground.

I probably did misunderstand. I agree, it's not useable if you can't put it to the ground. With that said, the plot from GJ is not a complete one, so I don't know how it compares in total area under the curve. My guess is that with the FX-500 set at lower boost, the curves would be fairly similar.

 

[Ether]

Holy

Now I can't WAIT for my appointment to get up there to check it out.

 

[KGP]

Damn is right, Can we see the Dyno sheet to silence the naysayers?

It is rather silent here this evening.

 

[NetViper]

It is rather silent here this evening.

Gene.. with 700 HP, you should be able to drive your car down to louisiana in about 2 hours. Then I can check it out! I will check on it for you when I go to factor X next week.

 

[KGP]

I will check on it for you when I go to factor X next week.

Will you be bringing the new bride to FX? If so, you might want to use the back door when you get to FX.

Factor X receptionist

 

[donwon]

k, its time to go FactorX

 

[GQ NSX]

k, its time to go FactorX

LOL, take me with you!

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

Easy guys. She is single and believe it or not has taken automotive classes for over three years.

 

[Black&Tan97Tnewportbeach]

What's that she's got, a pair of aces?

(sorry couldn't resist)