+1 I am buying out Walmart as they get shipments in.
Makes no sense to have food and water stockpiled unless you have LOTS of bullets.
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I mean wtf are these people doing? Another $410 billion for nothing?
- Thread starter SilverStone05
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+1 I am buying out Walmart as they get shipments in.
Makes no sense to have food and water stockpiled unless you have LOTS of bullets.
Can I stay at your place if the excrement hits the air handler?
Ive got 1500 rounds of 223 and uh, several firearms. You can hang out here if you like. Welcome to tennesse.
Ive got 1500 rounds of 223 and uh, several firearms. You can hang out here if you like. Welcome to tennesse.
I know him. You may want to seriously reconsider inviting him to your house.
I know him. You may want to seriously reconsider inviting him to your house.
Ahahha! Thanks for the heads up!
I know him. You may want to seriously reconsider inviting him to your house.
Damn you doug, I was looking forward to dinner too. Well I guess I will just have to come and stay with you Doug.
Ive got 1500 rounds of 223 and uh, several firearms. You can hang out here if you like. Welcome to tennesse.
Can I come to the party as well? Maybe we can hunt for our food, I have a couple AR's. How's the hunting out there? I've never done it, there's always a first time.
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Just so you guys understand, he's not going to spend $3.5Trillion in one bill... its over the course of a 4-8 year term. No one can manage spending that much money at once... There has to be over sight.
I think the stimulus itself has some promise. Its going to create 3.5 Million new jobs (which is already started to give ppl jobs in Maryland)
Its going to take time. You can't just sit there and not spend any money! That's part of the problem no one is spending (or can spend) and it just trickles down and gets worse as time goes on. Most of this bad economy is all psychological. Money isn't real... the economy is based on debt... the one thing I don't agree with that Obama is doing is creating this "bank" essentially to lend out money to people and businesses... We dont need more debt, we need less! This is what got us here in the first place!
If everyone paid off all their loans at once, the banks would go out of business. Banks don't make $ if you pay off your car / house all at once. They make tons of $$$$$$ on interest.... anyways I'm sure I'm going to be flamed as usual *flame suit on!* :wink:
I think the stimulus itself has some promise. Its going to create 3.5 Million new jobs (which is already started to give ppl jobs in Maryland)
Its going to take time. You can't just sit there and not spend any money! That's part of the problem no one is spending (or can spend) and it just trickles down and gets worse as time goes on. Most of this bad economy is all psychological. Money isn't real... the economy is based on debt... the one thing I don't agree with that Obama is doing is creating this "bank" essentially to lend out money to people and businesses... We dont need more debt, we need less! This is what got us here in the first place!
If everyone paid off all their loans at once, the banks would go out of business. Banks don't make $ if you pay off your car / house all at once. They make tons of $$$$$$ on interest.... anyways I'm sure I'm going to be flamed as usual *flame suit on!* :wink:
So for all the economics majors here ,which is the lessor of the two extremes to an economy as large as ours,prolonged recession of inflation.To yours truley on the surface it would seem that folks choosing not to spend 2$ for a loaf of bread is better than having to choose which 10$ loaf to buy?
Since I fit the category, assuming you meant "or" instead of "of", some inflation is necessary and healthy. It's the "resultant" so to speak when the money supply slightly overshoots the economy's demand for more money (literally).
Economists (although I don't practice as one) can write very long and thorough essays. The ones people remember are the ones that get to the point.
We are entering a deflationary period and must avoid this at almost* all costs.
All hail the Nikkei 225. Peaked just under 40,000 and decades later it trades at 7,292 as of today's close. That is deflation.
So despite almost every instinct inside of me, I'd rather have them print than face the alternative until CPI figures turn here and elsewhere (mainly China).
People in general lack a basic understanding of what's going on simply because they are not taught; not that they are unintelligent.
We are not "spending" money. We are borrowing it. We are essentially breaking out a chinese credit card to get our spending back on track so we can "create" jobs and pay back the CC debt and then some. Is that something you think is reasonable? The answer is no. Spending implies we have what we are "spending", we don't. I watch the treasury auction just about every day.
You bring up a valuable point but probably (definitely) not in the way you suspect. We will be borrowing money for another decade to pay this off, this is 100% for sure no matter what. Right now many intelligent people (like ol' Ben Bernanke) remain quiet because we are able to borrow money very cheaply. The odds of these low interest rates sustaining themselves over that entire period is basically zero.
Our politicians and those who support them are literally enslaving their children in debt for decades to come with the idea it's going to help them. God help us, Obama, everyone.
Wow what an excellent post.
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Good God I missed the of
Recession of inflation could make sense too, ya know? :wink:
Just wanted to make sure I had it right before I responded, good sir.
(not a trick question)
i get all of the above post (and thx for it), but being a reasonably intelligent guy (who will pay @ the increased tax level) i can't help but wonder: what about the people who caused / allowed / failed to regulate / manage the years of greed before, say, the past 7 weeks? pork-barrel politicians of all flavors - republicans. democrats. capitalists. regulators. did they not allow this to happen?
and now: "oh, sorry, shit happens. with our bonuses (gotta take care of one another) we're much wealthier - but smarter - now, so you should do what we say because we're really right this time."
the world financial markets didn't end up in this terrible mess because "shit happens" (although sometimes it does). seems to me like too many pigs at the trough and significant pain by everyone was going to be felt in the downturn.
things that seem to be good to be true, probably are - and my experience is, that applies to nearly everything - good times and recovery programs included.
I really wonder in the end how much more "the rich" will end up paying per year. The new tax rate is 39.5%.
Add an additional approximate 7-10k for hidden taxes (this number is what I'm not clear on) and increases in capital gains tax.
How much would a person making $200k in taxable income now pay? Just not sure.
Add an additional approximate 7-10k for hidden taxes (this number is what I'm not clear on) and increases in capital gains tax.
How much would a person making $200k in taxable income now pay? Just not sure.
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Filing single without any significant deductions- a crap ton.
Look at it this way: Before this change, the statistic I recall was that on average, ~50 cents of every dollar you make goes to pay for government. In essence, you work for free for half the year. You have to step back and look at the big picture- federal tax, state tax, property tax, sales tax, airport car rental tax, registration and license fees, a few hundred more you probably didn't even know existed, etc... etc...
The number one thing you can do to increase your wealth in America: lower your tax burden.
We are living in an era of absolutely unparalleled growth in government at all levels, while our economic engine is stalling out due to debt deflation. Brush up on your history. The parallel between the great depression in 1930 and today is unquestionable, and it is my belief that Obama sees himself as some kind of F!#$% Teddy Roosevelt.
While I can't predict the future, I feel pretty certain that on an individual level- things are going to get a lot worse before they get a lot better. My observation is that America has been on a crash course for decades now, it is just now crossing a pain threshold whereas many are starting to finally wake-up and notice. Success will ultimately be a measure of our country's resilience, despite being faced with an insurmountable if not incomprehensible regulatory burden.
Brushing through many of these posts on this thread, I recognize their are a lot of patriotic people out there. Their is nothing wrong with that. However, saying America is great and singing an anthem or adorning a bumper sticker doesn't make it so. It takes actual hard work and perseverance in the face of an entire army of worthless morons that would pee in your face then sell whatever you have out wholesale for ten cents on a dollar at the first opportunity. The BS and rhetoric changes but in the end it's all about your dollar. It's always about the dollar.
Again, "commoners" tend to blame "greed"; as in "those greedy bankers did it". Do you think bankers all of a sudden became greedy, as if everyone hasn't been greedy since we hoarded all the nearby shiny rocks in our caves? No, they are as greedy as they have always been. Just like everyone else.
The difference this time is a quantitative miss-pricing of risk. Despite what you might believe, it was not actually the banks that made the greatest miscalculations-it was the governments of the world who's responsibility it is to manage and regulate them.
Fannie and Freddie were the never dying garbage disposal for loans of all types, many of which were forced upon banks for social policy reasons. It was basically set up with no downside risk. As soon as anyone perceives no downside risk, a massive distortion begins. Everytime. Leverage magnified risk tremendously. As credit slows, asset values are slaughtered in a leveraged system. Is it the bank's fault for levering up 20:1? Various government entities purposefully* raised it from "normal" levels. European banks did it twice what we did here, and Eastern Europe will collapse, and western European banks will face it like a 20 ton guillitine. These are not exaggerations.
So was it the "greedy" bankers or stupid politicians who rigged the system and gave the bankers the keys?
I don't know if you can cure stupid politicans (many of which, including our President, received "special" mortages by most of the fallen firms), but I assure you that greed is not curable. You do the math.
There have been various studies on the most efficient taxation system. Anything over 10% for dividends/capital gains lowers revenue. 15-18% is the most efficient level for income taxes. Anything over these levels lowers net government revenue in any period of decent duration. But they are so short sided and foolish they couldn't care less. Politicians will consistently sacrifice our overall betterment if it can get them consistent votes, from the poor, religious, whatever.
heck, i don't know who qualifies as a commoner in your book, but i'm a fairly "uncommon" commoner. i'll take the hit you're intending to deliver. and i saw your post about patriots and 'merica. count me in that group, too.
(edit: in reading my post, i realize i left this out)
of course, greed's been around forever and it's not going away... and that's a good thing. having said that, i'm not in the financial services / banking industry, politics, real estate or auto industry. but i am one of the folks who will be paying higher tax rates in order to pay off the overblown greed / mismanagement of our system. and now i'll have to work even harder & longer to ensure my heirs are provided for before / after i'm gone.
boy, that's a bitch... and i mean that. i'm not happy about the debt and the smirking pelosi (i sure hope jib jab does that up) and the schools / infrastructure that are suffering now from the free-money, "it's the other guy's responsibility to make sure we don't take advantage of the opportunity the stupid politicians have allowed to be created."
the free money's over and we're all going to be paying for it for a very long time.
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I'm not too thrilled either. But I can take it. How many other people have no debt and money in the bank? Few and far between. My younger brother for intance will probably have the quality of his life degraded by this, and he will never even know it. It's the innocent people, often the ones who actually seem to beg* for it, that I feel sorry for; and what saddens me. They are manipulated and pay the piper, all the while going about their daily lives in the dark.
Even more since they are reducing the allowance for mortgage payments and charitable giving.
Which is funny because they are PAYING people to buy houses yet they are reducing the #2 reason you buy a house (writing off mortgage interest).
Totally f*cked up if you ask me.
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Instant gratification. Our society THRIVES on it.
It's really sad that the economy and society may be totally raped by this guy due to purely a political agenda.
I do have to laugh though at all the people I know who voted for him for simple reasons. They wanted "change" or "no Bush 2" or "charisma", etc. They spouted out about how they didn't care if he raised taxes and why should I either. After all they and I don't make over $250k per year. Who cares? I told them we would see a ton of tax increases relative to his new programs like cap and trade and universal health care. They laughed.
Ironically in the end the people who will be hurt the most are the poor. Some things I've read indicate the poorest could see their costs rise by about $750 a year next year.
Obama is even more shocking than I expected. In a few months I wonder what those people will say.
I do have to laugh though at all the people I know who voted for him for simple reasons. They wanted "change" or "no Bush 2" or "charisma", etc. They spouted out about how they didn't care if he raised taxes and why should I either. After all they and I don't make over $250k per year. Who cares? I told them we would see a ton of tax increases relative to his new programs like cap and trade and universal health care. They laughed.
Ironically in the end the people who will be hurt the most are the poor. Some things I've read indicate the poorest could see their costs rise by about $750 a year next year.
Obama is even more shocking than I expected. In a few months I wonder what those people will say.
boy, ain't it the truth.
I don't fully understand the psychology- but people seem to eat-up whatever is spoon fed to them from these miracle water salesman like babies. Like the video we saw yesterday with the lady and the repo-man, their is a real entitlement issue.
I have to be candid here...
A lot of people seem to be really gun-ho about modern American democracy as it exists today. I do not share their enthusiasm.
My observation is that most people in America think it is the greatest place on earth because they have a calibration issue. Most have been brain-washed with an interpretive version of world history in the 7th grade; that is total horse crap. I can only speculate that perhaps the rationalization is for them to achieve an elevated sense of patriotism. Whatever the cause, the consequence has been several generations of voters that blindly think everything is great, and blindly trust their elected officials to do the right thing while getting robbed blind.
As an example, I would suggest that most people are not going to accept an evaluation that makes the former Soviet Union as democratic as the United States, for example. However, the facts support exactly that. I SAY WAKE-UP. AMERICA IS NOT ALL THAT AND A BAG OF CHIPS ANYMORE. Stop thinking we are better than everyone else.
As a matter of course study in governance a democracy is not always even all that preferable. I am of the opinion that doing what is popular is seldom the right thing to do, nor leads to the best result. What it does is get you the mediocre 70% result.
I propose that radical, fundamental change is what is needed; but aknowledge to enable this would take an equally radical cultural change.
I agree completely. When was the last time you heard a politician talk about a 50 or 100 year budget plan to fix our highways? A 100 year plan to solve our energy or waste problems? The rule has been you have to be elected and then re-elected to stay in office, and that requires quick and on-going hand-outs. Nothing spans more than a human lifetime. The American political system is fundamentally broken and most political analysts aknowledge this fact.
Before I get pounced on, let's back up. I am sure in 1773 during the Boston Tea party, having an election system and a way to escape the rule of tyranny and oppressive rule was in fact a monumental individual improvement.
However, fast forward to 2009 and I think you will find that a lot has changed. We are not governing a nation of 4 million rural residents anymore. We are set to quadruple our population by 2050 approaching half a billion people, mostly in dense urban areas.
From a politician's point of view- that is in-turn half a billion potential tax payers. We have big media, special interests, corruption, and tens of millions of lazy people all clam-mering for their piece of the largest shit pie ever baked and not one can ever see past next week's problem. Crap, reading the stock market coverage you would think that the only thing that matters is the next couple of months. Reading the stimulus package... it is clear that personal responsibility is a thing of the past. It is like everyone blames the credit industry, and not ever the dumb ass whom took out the loan full well knowing the terms in the first place. The climate is ideal for a politician to sell the pipe dream and sping bigger government as the answer and people will eat it up everytime.
I think the impact of our national debt today, and to future generations, is an important point. I think more-so is setting up sustainable programs that produce results.
Personally, I evangelize conservative fiscal fundamentals, a more libertarian flavor of change.
I would like to see a conservative government that has not a 4 year plan, but a 40 year plan. Unresponsive government is good government. Something greater than that of any one individual. A government that is rationale, and would respond to a special interest lobby whom asks for the next quick 5 billion dollar public hand-out to subsidize a light rail system- with "sure but the train ticket will be $1145 each way because that is really what it costs to lay 30 miles of light rail to your front door step."
It is my belief that the average voter is naive and easily over-sold. They can't balance their own checkbook so how do you expect them to participate in a grown-up discussion with real ramifications for 300 million people? I don't think the average tax payer, even those whom gripe and complain online... really can even begin to imagine the extent of government mis-management and waste because they can't see past their own noses. It is staggering to me how many people feel entitled to someone else's stuff.
The only way to circumvent the problem, is to never bake the pie in the first place. Don't grow the public money tree into a redwood. The best way I think to do this is to make people bear the full cost for the public services they consume. No more public subsidized freebies X, Y, and Z courtesy your neighbor's wallet next store. Dial 911? Pay for it. House burns down? Pay to put it out. Incarcerated? You'll be working, not watching HBO. Want to send your kids to school? Pay for it and stop building into your family budget plan around the fact that the county assessor will snag the rich guy down the street with the big house to do it for you.
Real freedom is about the individual. We've lost that perspective. If you concern yourself with the public health and well being of every person and try to accommodate that, you are setting yourself up for socialism, and to fail. In fact, I think in many cases you are enabling the exact behavior that you seek to remedy. People should be discouraged from having kids they cannot afford as a matter of example, not getting hand-outs to help them cope with it. Otherwise perfectly healthy people should be encouraged to work, not given welfare. People should be encouraged to save and buy their house or college education with cash, instead of having a mortgage or loan so the underlying fundamental economy is strong. None of our current policies accomplish this. Our dollar is completely in the shitter due to these 'solutions' and the problems have gotten worse.
I think people would be a lot happier, and have a higher quality of life with a government (at all levels) that was 1/5 the size of the one we have today. A population that is 1/3 of the one we have today. A world in which everyone gets to make their own way and have the American dream, so it actually means something when they achieve it.
Still, I am also a realist. Not going to happen in our lifetimes. For every one of me their are 10,000 morons that would be more than happy to dip into someone else's pocket book.
So for me it's back to voting for America's next top model.
/ End Rant
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