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Installing 97+ headers on my '93 - Advice needed

Joined
19 August 2008
Messages
330
Hey guys,
I'm planning on installing a set of 97+ headers in the next few weeks.
Is there anything else in terms of maintenance that would be good to go ahead and do since I have a lot of exhaust components off of the car?

My car SHOULD have the W/P and timing belts replaced due to age (7 years since last replacement) but that is a job I'm putting off for now.

My VTEC seals leak [suspect] so I was planning on changing those out as well.

Lastly, how critical are the OEM heat shields? The headers I purchased from Cantrell Concepts dont have the heat shields. How many people here are running headers [OEM or aftermarket] without ceramic coating or heat shields? How long have you been doing so?

On that note, if you have a spare set of heat shields laying around...please PM me :biggrin:

Thanks guys in advance!
 
Now would be a good time to inspect your oil pan seal. If you plan to track the car it's also a good time to put an oil pan baffle in there now. You'll have to remove the front bank header to do so later on.

You'll find most on here do not find the need to coat aftermarket headers nor run heat shields but you'll find the die-hards who will coat the headers though.
 
Lastly, how critical are the OEM heat shields? The headers I purchased from Cantrell Concepts dont have the heat shields. How many people here are running headers [OEM or aftermarket] without ceramic coating or heat shields? How long have you been doing so?

No worries about the heat shields. 13 years my car has no heat shields with headers. Many of us are doing the same.

Regards,
LarryB
 
Ditto the oil baffle and gasket recommendation. I wish I did mine at the time.
Make sure you read, reread and reread the "how to" on header R&R.
Also simple green and powerwash the underside of the car THOROUGHLY.
It will severely reduce the amount of grime that falls on your face.

Impact air tools will be your savior as are the correct sockets, extensions etc before you begin.

My 2c is you should use the heat shields if you can find a pair. They are there for a reason. Some primer has them laying around and will probably give them to you for next to nothing.

Enjoy the new torque.
 
Ditto the oil baffle and gasket recommendation. I wish I did mine at the time.
Make sure you read, reread and reread the "how to" on header R&R.
Also simple green and powerwash the underside of the car THOROUGHLY.
It will severely reduce the amount of grime that falls on your face.

Impact air tools will be your savior as are the correct sockets, extensions etc before you begin.

My 2c is you should use the heat shields if you can find a pair. They are there for a reason. Some primer has them laying around and will probably give them to you for next to nothing.

Enjoy the new torque.

I am about halfway through putting on a set of Cantrell headers and exhaust
on my 91 and I couldn't agree more with kookoo4nsx.

Corroded nuts and bolts, close work spaces, and not having the right tools all have made it a very lengthy project.
For example to move the A/C compressor out of the way for the header install you need to loosen the belt tensioner.
No room for a socket and my 14 mm wrench was too short to gain enough leverage to loosen the tensioner nut. I ended up having to remove three more nuts to take the whole tensioner off. Took me 2-3 hours just to get the belt off.
Lots of dirt under the car and many opportunities to remove knuckle skin.

So take kookoo4nsx's advice and read everything on Prime on header installation.

Wear mechanics gloves, eye protection, get 6 sided sockets in 10,12,14 and 17 mm, good wrenches that won't open up a bit when you really pry on them, and several lengths of extensions particularly ones you can fit over the end of your wrenches.

Better yet get an impact wrench and save much time and grief.

If your car needs it suggest you do your oil pan gasket, compressor and alternator belts. engine oil and filter, transmission oil change and any greasing while you are in there. Never again will you have as much room to do these jobs

Jim
 
I don't know about the heat shields being necessary just for "they're there for a reason".

Everyone at Ramon's shop in OC gets the engine fan deleted and we aren't overheating or frying our motors.
 
Haha, I'm not looking forward to that at all. I do have a set of air tools so hopefully that will make it easier.

I do plan on doing the oil and I just did the trans [car shifting MUCH better with the Honda/Acura MTF].

Whats the necessity for the oil pan gasket? Is this thing prone to leaking?

Also, I'm def worried about the amount of corrosion with the car being 137k miles :eek: I did the headers and exhaust on my S2000 with 50k miles and that was a pain.....def gonna have to block a Sat&Sun for this.

Thanks for the advice guys, this forum is amazing.

I am about halfway through putting on a set of Cantrell headers and exhaust
on my 91 and I couldn't agree more with kookoo4nsx.

Corroded nuts and bolts, close work spaces, and not having the right tools all have made it a very lengthy project.
For example to move the A/C compressor out of the way for the header install you need to loosen the belt tensioner.
No room for a socket and my 14 mm wrench was too short to gain enough leverage to loosen the tensioner nut. I ended up having to remove three more nuts to take the whole tensioner off. Took me 2-3 hours just to get the belt off.
Lots of dirt under the car and many opportunities to remove knuckle skin.

So take kookoo4nsx's advice and read everything on Prime on header installation.

Wear mechanics gloves, eye protection, get 6 sided sockets in 10,12,14 and 17 mm, good wrenches that won't open up a bit when you really pry on them, and several lengths of extensions particularly ones you can fit over the end of your wrenches.

Better yet get an impact wrench and save much time and grief.

If your car needs it suggest you do your oil pan gasket, compressor and alternator belts. engine oil and filter, transmission oil change and any greasing while you are in there. Never again will you have as much room to do these jobs

Jim
 
This is a repost from out member Matteni from a while back. Well worth reading. :eek:

Here is the story people were refering too. It was a learning experiance to say the least and I have had to re-do them since (really did take 4 hours on and off the 2nd time with the right tools). It really is dificult with hand tools and under stands but you will be a better man for it.

Go on I dare you! Heck I double dare you!!!



Headers for Dummies - Part I

Date: 10/25/1998

Hey gang,

The following is part 1 of a detailed story of one mans courage and stupidity to try to replace the headers on a 91' NSX. It is not one of those BS stories "yeh I did it in a suit and tie in 2 hours with only an adjustable wrench - and you can to!" stories that you often read. The people that say that are liars and have amnesia from dropping their cars on their heads. The moral of the story "(1) everything costs twice as much time and money as you plan and (2) if you can afford it - have someone else do it". It is much funner to take your car to the Acura dealer, steal a donut (or 2), and come back to a washed, clear, and repaired car". It is as if the little NSX fairies come and magically add stuff and it is wonderful if you can afford it.

Background: I decided that life had no meaning without aftermarket headers. I knew if I had some good headers my car would have more torque and horsepower then a Henning Viper, I would be more attractive to my wife, and my feet would no longer smell. Of course I thought that when I replaced my exhaust and did some airbox mods - but nothing happened so I knew it was the headers holding me back.

I couldn't afford new headers so I went the "used" market route. Sure enough I found RM had a set of DC Sports SS304 headers that were cracked on the inner sleeve and needed repair. Some baseball player was swapping out for RM's and wanted $600 for the set. I worked out a deal by which DC Sports would fix them for free and pay for shipping both ways - so I had a steal of a deal. It took me 4 weeks of phone calls and checking before I finally got them from RM to DC to me - but hey - it was worth it. Special thanks to Randy for dealing with me constantly on a deal that he stood little to gain on.

Since I couldn't really afford the headers, the install costs needed to be managed. My local dealer quoted me an install cost of $600 w/tax (ouch!). I then went through my Racer NSX site and found a member's post on how he did it himself. I read it and it sounded simple so I decided to by a shop manual and do it myself. For the rest of the post I will detail my expenses in brackets to show how I did vs. the dealer's $600 quote (DIY Cost $100). Unfortunately, there is no page that says - here is how you take out the headers if you don't have any clue on what to do. Bummer.

Honeymoon: So last night (Weds) I had a nice dinner, a glass of wine, and I decided to get the digital camera and the headers and do what I needed to do to get them in the car. I realized I needed some jack thingys so I went out and bought a small jack, 2 jack stands, and 2 chucks ($50 - DIY Total $150). I got the jack home and it was about 1/4" too tall and wouldn't work. I remembered I could saw off the top and it would fit so I hack sawed my new jack and covered it with electrical tape to protect my car. I cut the jack so low that it wouldn't life as high, but now I had the back of the car on stands but barely enough to get under. I also noticed my jack was now leaking oil everywhere and picked up the little notice not to turn the release valve more then 2 turns (Doooogghhh!!!). I figured the oil would stop on its own. I also realized I needed 4 jack stands and 2 wouldn't work. I went back and bought 2 more, some "long" sockets because they looked cool and might come in handy, and some adapters for my torque wrench ($30 - DIY total $180). Now I had to figure out a way to get the car higher. I took a landscape brick off the wall in front of our house. Unfortunately, I have lost so much oil that the jack will no longer go up. I got the scissors jack (stock) and the landscape brick and was able to get the car off the ground enough to get all 4 jack stands under the car. It was a bear and I think I ruined my scissors jack and don't know how I am going to get the car back down! (2 hours have past now). I throw my 2 hour old floor jack into the trash can and I am starting to think I can't get this done in the 4 hours I budgeted... I do have a digital camera and am taking a copious amount of pictures for 2 reasons. First, I want to post a set of instructions on how it is really done (and not one of these posts that lists 1/1000th of the steps) and second - I have no confidence I will put everything back right!

Honeymoon Over: I am now under the car with my torque wrench and begin to try to get the obvious bolts off. I spray everything with oil and hope they don't stick. I am using my K-Mart 40 piece mechanic set for $19 tools so you know I am looking like a pro. Son-of-a-bitch were these bolts on tight. The cat / exhaust bolt patterns have 3 bolts and it was like the first 2 would come off fine but the third one was welded on. I bet if you go on that Japanese NSX tour you will find that there are 3 exhaust system installers and 2 are typical Japanese men in size and weight - and the third is an ex-sumu wrestler with an attitude. If you see him, do me a favor and kick him in the balls for me (then run) for tightening these things down so f------ tight. I now have grease everywhere and am bleeding from several places from "cornering" (a nice word for stripping) several bolts. I also found that WD-40 spray does wonders for your eyes when it drips down off the bolts. At least it washes out all the rust that falls in your face every time you take something off the car.

It is now 11pm and the Potato bugs are attacking me like some Vincent Price movie! They are even biting me! I am screaming and swearing at the Potato Bugs, the bolts and the car - saying stuff to the bolts like "you want some of this you SOB (bolt) - it is time you meet Mr. Breaker Bar you !#@$#%#$@. At first I don't like to kill the Potato Bugs because they are disgusting and make a squishing sound (this is their only natural defense system BTW). I soon go on a rambo spree with the lid of the WD-40 to kill every Potato bug in the western hemisphere. Once they are all dead - I return to the stubborn bolts.

The neighbors are closing their front windows and my 9 month pregnant wife is now watching me with a detached look like she doesn't know weather to say anything or not. She takes a round about approach and asks me if I have ever done this or any maintenance on an NSX. I tell her I worked on NSX's all the time before we met and didn't even need to keep my eyes open. She knows our "real" mechanic is coming on Sunday and asks if we shouldn't just wait for him to do this too. I said I can do it cause I have the instructions. I am now a little light headed from the loss of blood and decide to go in. I am filthy and wretched looking. My four hours have passed and I don't have anything off the car yet and am starting to wonder if I should just put it all back together and write off the rest.

Just then another list member, Al Terpak, calls about some sleeves he sells for the NSX stock or aftermarket sway bars. Although we have never met face to face, all talked to me about installing the headers for over a 1/2 hour and never lost patience or assumed I knew something I didn't. Here is what my side of the conversation sounded like (imagine the old Bob Newhart standup routine where he is on the phone): "Yeh Al thanks for calling about the sway bar sleeves - as a matter of fact I was working on installing the headers and was having a hard time...what, I should soak the bolts in "liquid wrench" to help them come off? I used 10W-40 spray...oh you mean that is not the same stuff? I see. I actually have stripped a few bolts I think. Are my sockets 12 point or 6? I got the 12 point cause they were the same price. Oh the 6 points work better huh? Got it. Have I removed the heat shields yet? Not really - the car has been off for a day and it is not too hot outside. Oh - I need to take them off to get to the flange huh? Torque settings and lock tight are a good thing huh? Yeh I have the manual but it doesn't have a section on how to remove the headers if you have no idea what you are doing" This went on for a while. God bless that Al Terpak for his guidance and patience. I had enough courage, patience, and money left to try again the next day.

Next - Part II: The Empire Strikes Back

Headers for Dummies - Part II

Date: 10/25/1998

Here is part II of the Headers for Dummies Experience I had..

Thursday Morning - Know thy Enemy!:

Now battle hardened I set out to meet the enemy again before work. I walk past my wife with an intensity and determination like she has never seen. I sure that if she was talking to me - she would have told me how "turned on" she was by this display of manliness. I decide to check out the underside of the car and see if I can get any of the flanges apart. I notice the deep socket bolts I bought cause they were "cool looking" are in fact 6pt and have a 3/8" connector for better grip. Sure enough I am able to get a couple flanges apart and am able to leave the exhaust system up. I have worked for about an hour and realize I am late for work. My hands, arms, and lower legs are permanently stained and my knuckles are raw. This is really the image I want to present to my clients as a Big 6 (or 5 or whatever) Consultant. (Total time = 5 hours / Total Cost still = $180.)

Thursday after work:

I come home As my wife is due to deliver any day now, I cook dinner and talk to her like a "normal" human does. However, all I can think about is the job at hand and I soon sneak off when the phone rings. Not too much later I have the cats off when - damn - I broke my 12mm socket that was part of my $40 3,000 piece tool set! No fear, I still have my alternate set of $20 1,000 piece tools when - damn - it broke too! What's worse I can't fit my deep socket 12mm wrench in there! I decide to take a brake and call Randy for advice. Randy knows the underside of an NSX better then the top side and can do this in his sleep - so I knew he would have all the tips. I call him and he starts rattling off all the parts to remove with which size and so on. I am trying to listen and scribble frantically. In the end I have unreadable chicken scratch that was so awful - I wish I would have labeled which side was up. All I did remember was I would not put any solvent on the O2 sensor and I would need a 21mm wrench to get it off. I was depressed cause it was like being told the meaning of life - but too fast to remember or make sense of it. Randy finished by saying, "you are not trying to do this with hand tools are you? Oh... Well it is a bitch so good luck." Bummer.

I decide I need some progress to lift my spirits so I head out to the store to buy more parts and get the stuff I need to do an oil change. I buy another floor jack, a couple of flexible socket joints, a couple stubby sockets, some locktight, and some Mobile 1 (DIY cost $230 vs dealer quote $600). I then go to the Acura dealer to buy a oil filter. Now whenever I go to St. Louis Acura - they treat me like the cash cow / god that I am. These people pretend to be my friends because of the copious amount I spend there. I think they even have a "Nick Matteucci Scholarship Fund" as I am putting 1/2 their kids through college. They get me a Oil Filter from parts and are very nervous. They have never charged me less then $500 and have been ripping me off for the better part of a year. One time they tried to charge me 2.1 HOURS of labor to change the brake fluid! Like a gypsy caravan who knows the secrets are going to be soon revealed - there is a edgy nervousness in the air. I can see that they are all thinking about all the stuff they recently bought on credit - betting "on the come" that my money would cover it! Anyway - they charge me $19 @#Q!$%# dollars for a $4 oil filter!

I get home and place the oil pan under the car and remove the screw to drain the oil. I use my Wal-Mart "6 tools in 1" oil filter changer and it doesn't fit! I think to myself - screw it and make a mental note to put oil in the car before starting it back up. I couldn't even change the oil right so I return my attention to the car. I get the cats, a couple heat shields, and the exhaust pipe off the car. I am so proud of myself I feel like lighting a cigar - except I am covered with grease and would catch fire and die. (Total time 10 hours / Total Costs $230).

Friday Morning - Custards last stand: I wake up at 7am to finish the car today. I know that my marriage and sanity depend on it. My Mom is so disgusted by my behavior that she tells my wife that she is going to pay someone to steal my car and makes my wife promise not to let on! I start out with the manual again and want to finish the oil change and get the 21mm wrench for the O2 sensor. I go to the store for the 1000th time and I buy some kind of flanged 21mm socket that is supposed to be for water lines / etc cause it is the only one they have. I also go and return the oil filter remover for a different one that looks like it will work. When I get back - my wife has abandoned me for her friends and is wondering what would happen if she went into labor with me under the car and wretched looking. I go in the house for water and notice the Yellow Pages open to divorce attorneys - not a good sign.

I get the filter off but forget that it is filled with oil. A lot of oil. I now have oil all over me, my garage, and my tools. It takes me a 1/2 hour to clean everything up (except me). Now Acura charges me $56 for an oil change and my costs were $40 + the tool. DIY is becoming a dirty word. Per Randy's instructions I get the U shaped suspension bar off the car and the V shaped vertical suspension bar off the car. I finally get to the rear header and it is a bitch to get these bolts off with hand tools. I spend about 20 min. on each bolt experimenting with different extensions, angles of attach, etc. I usually can't get my breaker bar in there and can't exert enough torque with my 1/4" drive hand wrench. I remember that I didn't through away the handle to the jack I ruined and hacksaw it to fit over the hand wrench to become a new breaker bar. I unplug the O2 sensor from the engine - and remove the rear header and place it on the ground. I go to use my 21mm wrench on the O2 sensor and it won't fit! I get so pissed that I try to use an adjustable wrench and a hammer to get it loose. I am starting to strip the O2 sensor and ruin my adjustable wrench. I have seen professional welding that wouldn't stick like these O2 sensors do. I drive back to the store and return the tapered wrench - and drive to 2 more stores to find a 21mm standard wrench. I get back over an hour later and it still won't fit!!! I realize then that maybe this is not a 21mm as I was told - but a 22mm. Traffic is awful but I go back to the store and get a 22mm wrench - drive back - and stand on the SOB till it finally comes loose. Did I mention it is 90 degrees in the shade here in St. Louis? (DIY Costs = $240)

I put the new header in with the metal gaskets and the SOB will not fit over the bolts! I spend another 45 min. trying to get these in and give up (temporarily) to focus on the front headers. I call Randy from my cell phone under the car and he tells me again, "how I have to loosen the shift cables, remove the brackets, undo the main engine mount bolt, remove a huge cross member, take off the AC compressor and associated wire" - all to get at the front header. I am getting a gag reflex to vomit into the phone, but "in for a dime - in for a dollar" decide to give it a try. I get the shift cables loose (scary), the engine mount off (what's holding everything up?), the cross member off, and undo the bolts holding the AC on. Randy said to just put it down somewhere but for some reason, it is hanging just fine without the belt on it? I wrestle with it a little and ignore it to get the front header. To make sure I took the right AC bolts off, I call Randy on my once white - now grease black - cordless phone. I also tell him I can't get the rear header on for the life of me and he remembers that I have the DC Sports headers and I have to undo the 3 main transmission bolts and jack up the tranny 1/2" to get the headers over the bolts. Bummer.

I do what he says and sure enough they go on easily and I clamp them down. BTW - Randy's headers which are superior for not cracking also do not need to jack up the tranny to get to them. Finally 1 header is on the car!!! Only 15 hours have passed since I started the job!

I get the front header shield off and start working on the bolts. I keep looking at the AC compressor hanging precariously and it is nagging me what is holding it up. I look closer and their is a single, small gauge yellow wire that I didn't look for that is supporting the entire weight of the compressor! (Doughhhh!). I support the compressor with one hand and undo the wire couple with the other. I place the AC unit on the landscape brick I took off the front of our house - and wonder if we will ever have AC again. Oh well - it only robs you of power - right?

I finally get the front header off the car and one by one - all the neighbors are coming over to see what I am doing. One of them (god bless him) looks at the original exhaust pipe and compares it to the new header - and notices a metal gasket in the original. I hadn't noticed and remove the gasket and put it on the new headers. I hear him say a quite little prayer for me as he leaves.

I put the new front headers on the car and am putting the self locking bolts on. I get down to the last nut and can't find it anywhere. Like a wild animal I am turning my garage upside down. I look for a good 40 minutes and decide to go to the dealer to get another one. I drive like a maniac and feel like crying. I get to the Acura dealer where I normally show up dressed "to the nines" and acting like the prince I am - except I look like a street bum. Remember that movie "Trading Places" with Dan Ackroyd and Eddie Murphy? I was Dan Ackryd the bum. They literally didn't recognize me and all I said was "I need 1 of this nut!" I must have appeared deranged and they were thinking "you are a nut". Finally their NSX service rep said - "Nick - is that you?" He took a look at the nut and said, "what are you doing with this - this looks like a exhaust header self locking nut?" I told him I was doing my own headers as they were too expensive. He looked at me with a sad - fatherly look like - "you poor basterd". He sent me to parts and they let me come to the back of the warehouse to let me see the computer system and to get me away from the paying customers. The computer system was awesome and they could pull up all the parts. Unfortunately for me - they don't stock this 1 bolt and it would take them a WEEK TO GET ONE IN. Luckily for me there is a 3 day waiting period for handgun sales. I think I frightened him enough that he started calling other auto shops and then went to the floor to see if he had anything that might work. He left me alone with all the NSX oil filters right in front of me - and an idle mind is the devil's playground. I decide against it and he returns with a couple of similar nuts that might work.

I return home and wonder why they were acting so weird. I pull down the vanity mirror and start laughing hysterically at my grotesque appearance (imagine "phantom of the opera" and you get the idea). Luckily - one of the nuts worked perfectly and as soon as I finished - I found the missing nut! Apparently it had fallen into my armpit and was trapped in my shirt!

Putting stuff back together was a little easier then taking it off. Plus - there are a lot fewer pieces as you don't need the heat shields and the font header replaces the original front header and the exhaust pipe. It really looks a lot cooler without all the kluged heat shields and stuff. I was concerned there would be problems testing it and was not pleased with the amount of leftover parts. It is now 10:30 at night so I clean the tools and myself and go to bed by midnight.

Saturday Morning:

I wake up and am so sore I can't move. I had dreams that 3 Ninja's were kicking my ass all night and one had an N one had a S and one had a X on their shirts. My better half also informs me that I have ruined our sheets with the grease that didn't wash off and the blood everywhere. I shower again and my legs are burning like crazy. I look down and my calves and ankles are completely sunburn from hanging out the bottom of the car and in the sun! My knuckles look like I rubbed them against a cheese grater. I shower again and decide to go test out my new car. Just then my guardian angle reminds me that I have not put oil in the car yet! There is a God and he is just and merciful. I put the Mobile One in and climb into the car on jack stands and start it up.

There is no rattles (good), the AC works (very good), the check engine light never comes on (good). One thing that was interesting was one pipe blew a little white smoke and the exhaust heated up faster then the other (looking from the back the left pipe). As it was 8 in the morning - I didn't want to test the system by hammering on the throttle. My neighbors are already petitioning to have me removed for using my garage as a shop.

All in all I figure I spent $250 and 20 hours. Could I do it quicker next time - you bet. I am starting to get the amnesia that comes from traumatic experiences. On Sunday I am going to do the Springs with my mechanic. BTW - Sunday is also my wife's due date.

Statistics:

- Time estimated to replace headers.......4 hours

- Actual time spent.......................20 hours

- Money estimated.........................$100

- Money spent.............................$250

- Curse words uttered.....................10,543

- Times I called Randy for help...........6

- Amount of money Randy made on the deal..$0.00

- Trips to the hardware store.............9

- Knuckles bleeding.......................8

- Muscles sore............................75

- Tools broken............................6

- Fingers broken..........................1

- Promises to wife broken................14

- Neighborhood children frightened........5

- Parts "left over".......................17

Coming next: "Springs for Dummies" - No really this ought to be easy :)
 
For example to move the A/C compressor out of the way for the header install you need to loosen the belt tensioner.

Jim

Next time do not do that:). There is no need to loosen the tensioner, you can still swing the compressor off/on without touching the belt adjustment. I have done it just a few times;).

HTH,
LarryB
 
Next time do not do that:). There is no need to loosen the tensioner, you can still swing the compressor off/on without touching the belt adjustment. I have done it just a few times;).

HTH,
LarryB

Ahhh Larry

The voice of experience!

At 65 I have experience but nothing relevant to NSX work apparently.

Knowing what I know now I would have bought a complete set of nut extractors before I started.
My 91 lives in rain soaked BC and the exhaust system gets wet then hot then corroded.

I would break off the front O2 sensor and get the old header off straightaway.

Right you are about the A/C compressor- no need to loosen the belt.

The reinstall of all the new parts should go much easier now that I've stumbled through the uninstall part.

For further " learning" next up is to remove the OEM dampers and springs and install a newer set of oem dampers already assembled with Tein springs.

I am hoping to be finished before spring arrives:)

Jim

p.s. Your advice as I've gone along has been invaluable
 
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