Letter to KBB / NADA concerining NSX and insurance values

[Patricio]

I am sending this letter to every used car value site I can find and I think every one else should too. this may help our community out for prospective buyers and sellers

here it the letter I am sending
You guys can cut a and paste different variations of it, as you please.

any email addresses I find worth contacting I will post here and as anyone finds more I will try to add more addresses so we can all send emails out like a huge petition.

TO:
[email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]

To whom this may concern,

I am curious to know why your values on the early 1991 to 1994 Acura NSX are over $10,000 off. I have been to several Auto auctions including Manheim Auto Auction which I believe is the largest exotic auto auction in the NE / USA. I also searched for 8 months nationwide taking 3 trips to Texas, LA, Arizona, and Miami, thinking I could find one for your reported values. …………Impossible

After 1 Year of research and finally buying an above excellent condition 1992 with 100k for $35k (worth only $19k according to kbb) after 2months negotiating this car and 2 flights to Tampa Florida from Philadelphia since the seller changed his mind the first time.

Your numbers are so far off its mind-boggling, at any DEALER AUCTION I have been to, a 91 NSX in somewhat clean condition and 100k will sell over $27-30k so how on earth it is that KBB and NADA say that same car retails for $19k and trades in at $17k !!!????
http://autos.msn.com/classifieds/li...asic&zip=19012&make=Acura&model=NSX&cpo=false

Does KBB or NADA even look at the numbers coming out of auctions or just pulling numbers out of the sky?

This is also becoming a problem insuring these cars as I have met a couple people that have had trouble getting reimbursed anywhere near the current value of their car. After I purchased my car with cash for $34k my insurance company state farm told me that the value based on their insurance value guide was only $18k, since I paid cash there is no gap insurance. That also makes no sense.

I am friends with about 8 people with 91-94 NSX’s, none paid a penny under $30k unless the car had been previously t-boned by at 60mph

Here are the prices practiced on 91-94s after personally losing a few deals, and meeting people who have purchased them both at auctions and private parties as well as dealers that I know deal with them

$20k will NOT buy you a 91 even with a R-title they still do $23-25k with 100-120k miles even with an r-title that’s how far off you guys are
$25k will still NOT buy you a 91 with a clean title
$26k minimum if scheduled maintenance is needed (poor market value -$4 repairs for timing belt and clutch), and 80-120k miles
$29-33k (average condition) 80-110k miles
$33-35k (above average condition) 50-100k miles with proof all maintenance done
$35-40k in (excellent condition) 20-50k miles and proof all maintenance done.
Pristine examples may be over $40k

These numbers are based on my estimates and experiences.
I don’t believe my estimates to exaggerated nor biased and would ask your company to review them carefully.
Please review your resources and correct the values based on your discoveries.
As these cars become rarer, having accurate information would be greatly appreciated by NSX owners and prospective buyers.

NSX’s are selling near Ferrari prices for comparable early 90’s model years. Correct value resources are crucial.

Thank you
Tiago Patricio
[email protected]

PS: other cars that seem off are the early 93 RX-7’s and the 93 Toyota Supra’s as well as 93-98 Porsche 911’s are worth more than 99-00’s

 

[DocL]

Although I applaud your valiant effort, you're probably only going to hear crickets in the distance.

 

[Kouki Monster]

Your prices are a touch high as well. I would bump each of your catagories
down one. $35-40k should be a close to perfect example. I think if you are paying 30-33k for a car with 100k miles you are not shopping around enough.
Maybe these are dealer financed cars?

two examples on prime in the last 6-8 month are a 12k mile gem sold for $36500 all original etc car sat for sale for 4-6 months. Second was a CT
car that has 26k miles all maintence completed sold for $33k. Just recently
a original 51k mile car sold for $27k. Last but not least was Barrett Jackson/Ebay car with 8k miles selling for $38500 plus shipping. Though I do agree the KBB values are far off market values!

 

[heySkippy]

Has anyone really had a problem where the insurance company wanted to give you book value instead of what it would cost to replace it?

I dare any insurance adjuster to try that with me.

 

[squid2004]

My insurance company has extended my coverage with no problem and I like the small amount of property tax I have to pay... so please don't update the book values

If people are looking at book values for cars like the NSX then they have a problem. Hopefully you aren't considering trading one in at a dealership.

 

[Patricio]

I am no where near thinking of selling my car. and I think the prices that you mention being all over the place have something to do with their being no fair market resource. its a domino effect I'm sure our cars would be much easier to sell/buy/trade if where most people start looking was correct at KBB / NADA. I just recently met someone at the nsx event that got offered 7k for his 91 with 100k as a trade in. thats ridiculous.

I dont think there is any thing positive about having $10k lower book values.

 

[MCM]

Just send this link.

http://www.nsxprime.com/wiki/Pricing#General_NSX_Pricing_Guide

Its as close as I have seen to actual value's / selling prices of early cars.

Another issue is many owners over estimate the condition of their cars. :biggrin:

3rd issue, when these cars turn then what?
They stopped depreciating many moons ago.

 

[NSXGMS]

I applaud your efforts but KBB/NADA's inaccurate pricing on cars like the NSX and other rare, low-production cars won't change.

Both KBB and NADA use set formulas based on nationwide auction data. These formulas work fine for 99% of cars but so few NSXs move at auction (and the ones that do tend to be in below-average condition) that the formula that works for most other cars just doesn't where the NSX is concerned.

I just don't think KBB/NADA is interested in devising a new approach and/or formula for < 1% of cars. The existing formulas work fine and are fairly accurate for nearly every other car.

Insurance companies for the most part pay "fair market value" for cars. They use Autotrader, Ebay and other reputable sites for comparables. I have seen lenders, however, use KBB/NADA as a guide for maximum loan amounts. I'm not worried about that though--needing a down payment tends to keep the riff-raff away from the NSX. There aren't too many lenders who lend on 15+ year old cars so even though these cars are finally becoming "affordable" they are now so old it's difficult to obtain a good loan--and most riff-raff don't have $25K in the bank to spend on a car. I also think most kids' parents would be very quick to shoot down a high-interest loan on an older car in favor of a lower-interest loan on a much newer car than an NA1 NSX.

 

[BD]

Your prices are a touch high as well. I would bump each of your catagories
down one. $35-40k should be a close to perfect example. I think if you are paying 30-33k for a car with 100k miles you are not shopping around enough.
Maybe these are dealer financed cars?

two examples on prime in the last 6-8 month are a 12k mile gem sold for $36500 all original etc car sat for sale for 4-6 months. Second was a CT
car that has 26k miles all maintence completed sold for $33k. Just recently
a original 51k mile car sold for $27k. Last but not least was Barrett Jackson/Ebay car with 8k miles selling for $38500 plus shipping. Though I do agree the KBB values are far off market values!

Thank you, you are right on the money. 100k plus mileage NSX should be low to mid $20's. Considering the fact that 1995/96 are going for mid 30's now, there is ABSOLUTELY no reason to pay the same price for a car that are four plus years older.


KBB is a guideline, that's what the dealerships will use to buy, trade and sell cars. Early NSXs I have seen that were sold for more than $30k plus usually have some desirable mods, or super low miles.

100k miles... You gotta be kidding me. There are probably 7000 early NA1 NSXs out there, and the much more rare NA2 are dropping price in a unreal rate, and many buyers shoot for below KBB value when purchasing those rare NA2 cars, and yet, people want $10k more than KBB for a 100k miles, STOCK 1991 NSX.

HOWEVER, it is worth what people are willing to pay, perhaps that is why from time to time, I see people complaining about why they can’t sell their car when they think the asking price is reasonable.

 

[MCM]

And 68 Vette's should be more than 67's.....:biggrin:

 

[Patricio]

Your prices are a touch high as well. I would bump each of your catagories
down one. $35-40k should be a close to perfect example. I think if you are paying 30-33k for a car with 100k miles you are not shopping around enough.
Maybe these are dealer financed cars?

two examples on prime in the last 6-8 month are a 12k mile gem sold for $36500 all original etc car sat for sale for 4-6 months. Second was a CT
car that has 26k miles all maintenance completed sold for $33k. Just recently
a original 51k mile car sold for $27k. Last but not least was Barrett Jackson/Ebay car with 8k miles selling for $38500 plus shipping. Though I do agree the KBB values are far off market values!

why is there so much negativity here?

Actually your talking about past 6-8 months that would mean the worst possible time to sell your NSX. just like SUVSs do 10-20% less in the summer at the auctions. nsx's barely move in the winter. anyone who sells in the winter is obviously selling cheap.

I owned and managed different car dealerships. and still frequent auctions for wholesale exotics. the nsx by far is the furthest off I have ever seen on a non-antique. the car is less than 20 years old and therefore expected to be accurate in the books.

I know buyers that have changed their mind on the NSX cause they could not justify value on their own. Most people need a book to tell them what its worth in black and white, and they may deviate from that slightly (+or- $3-4k, but for most people out there even non-riffraff still need printed info.

All i'm saying is it affects our values drastically when un-knowledgeable sellers are letting there NSX go to dealers for $10k below their value. And some buyers aren't going to feel knowledgeable enough to make a concrete offer on a NSX when most people don't have the 2-3 months it takes to get familiarized with the values of the NSX. I had the same problem when I bought mine it takes time and research and you have to see 3-4 of them before you can actually understand the values of the NSX.

instead of bashing my efforts why not just take a minute and copy and paste the stupid letter.

 

[NSXFRIEND]

why is there so much negativity here?

Actually your talking about past 6-8 months that would mean the worst possible time to sell your NSX. just like SUVSs do 10-20% less in the summer at the auctions. nsx's barely move in the winter. anyone who sells in the winter is obviously selling cheap.

I owned and managed different car dealerships. and still frequent auctions for wholesale exotics. the nsx by far is the furthest off I have ever seen on a non-antique. the car is less than 20 years old and therefore expected to be accurate in the books.

I know buyers that have changed their mind on the NSX cause they could not justify value on their own. Most people need a book to tell them what its worth in black and white, and they may deviate from that slightly (+or- $3-4k, but for most people out there even non-riffraff still need printed info.

All i'm saying is it affects our values drastically when un-knowledgeable sellers are letting there NSX go to dealers for $10k below their value. And some buyers aren't going to feel knowledgeable enough to make a concrete offer on a NSX when most people don't have the 2-3 months it takes to get familiarized with the values of the NSX. I had the same problem when I bought mine it takes time and research and you have to see 3-4 of them before you can actually understand the values of the NSX.

instead of bashing my efforts why not just take a minute and copy and paste the stupid letter.

What does your black book value give 91 NSX and is it accurate? Are you going to forward wholesale value to Nada and kelly blue book? Curious as a buyer. A car is worth what a buyer/seller agree upon.

 

[Kouki Monster]

I am not being negeative. I think you are right but I also think your prices are a touch high.

 

[davidf]

Wow, I guess I can consider myself exxxxxxtremely fortunate to have picked up my 91 with 51000 for 27k. Clean title, clean carfax.

 

[ibDursty]

Is that true about state farm? About them only giving 18k for an NSX? Just wondering because that's who I have insured through.

 

[JeffShoots]

Paid $18k = 96k miles With New interior in Ca.

 

[Patricio]

Paid $18k = 96k miles With New interior in Ca.

thats great that you got a steal but im sure when you put it up for sale your gonna be really upset that you just posted that info. your gonna be asking 30k for that car.

Kouki Monster:
they may be a touch high that is possible but if you read the letter it asks them to correct their own research. There obviously is no correct book but a guide is something expected on car that is only 15 years old.

davidf:
that is a really good deal. but a 92 with 50k just went for $34k at manheim dealer auction. and a 91 with 112k also went 3 weeks ago for $28k at the same dealer auction. But in actuality JeffShoots: paying $18k with 96k miles just made your deal look like a not so good deal. so now who really got a good deal great deal was your deal a great as you thought? thats the problem

these to me are perfect examples of why this car is not old enough for its buyers to be very experienced car buyers.

 

[Ski_Banker]

Write your letter and let us know how it works.

 

[JeffShoots]

thats great that you got a steal but im sure when you put it up for sale your gonna be really upset that you just posted that info. your gonna be asking 30k for that car.

Sale........it would have to be in one pile

Cars totally apart and in a few states, 6-speed here, motor still in Ca. going stroker 3.5L, Car in Or., turbo in Ga., Motons, Brembo brakes, Spearco seats, misc parts all over my house, garage.........dedicated Track Rat coming soon and I'm sure with my record I'll wreck it before I sell it :tongue:

 

[Patricio]

Is that true about state farm? About them only giving 18k for an NSX? Just wondering because that's who I have insured through.

I guess that may depend on whether or not jeffshoots's car is the last sale recorded when your insurances company does research. they do take into consideration latest sales and autotrader if you argue their initial value, but good luck getting actual replacement value. If you owe money on your car theres always gap insurance. Other than that its kinda difficult since the car is not old enough to qualify for agreed value in some states since its less than 20 years old. same problem right now with 911's

I'm happy for jeffshoots finding a great deal, but unfortunately that value was obviously deemed based on some seller being mislead or under informed thanks to a nada or Kbb book. Every time that happens it costs us all little as NSX owners. If even only 10 people know about that specific sale thats already enough ammo for the next guy negotiating a sale or purchase. I'm using jeffshoots for example purposes only nothing personal.

so if you care about making an effort to get NSX book prices where they should be. Than help if not than don't post.

Cowards sit negatively waiting for 8 of 10 efforts fail, than later reap the benefits of the 2 that prevail.

A whole form of NSX owners, and not a single one willing to put some effort together? 1 minute to send an email? Are you guys serious? Or am I getting the wrong idea here? An effort being knocked down before tried? Thats contrary all the decisions in life that would even get you anywhere near affording an NSX in the first place.

same problems with 93-98 Porsche 911’s are worth more than 99-00’s
PCA is right now actively doing the same thing I'm trying to do with the email thing as a group. thats where I got the idea. but seems the p-car group is much more understanding of how people get together and make a difference.

94 911 turbo kbb estimate $30k
http://www.kbb.com/KBB/UsedCars/Pri...66|19125|0|0|&Condition=Good&QuizConditions=0
94 911 turbo autotrader for sale $65k - $82k
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/searc...ault_sort=priceDESC&keywordsrep=&keywordsfyc=

 

[Synthesis]

I dare any insurance adjuster to try that with me.

word
they'll pay mine whether it's "covered" or not. period.
(but hopefully i'll never get in that situation, and hopefully they won't be rotten turds about it)

 

[jond]

I think this is a good idea. I'll write a letter too.
Being what the NSX is, I can not see why they wouldn't listen.

 

[MCM]

Another one to look at / 88-91 E30 M3's.
Mint examples are over $20k now, a few close to or over $30k!
KKB is about $8000.00 for a mint example with 97,000 miles.

I guess I am just used to this from dealing with so many 60's cars.

There is always the lo-baller who thinks they can out do the market.
In the end they ushually end up with sub-standard examples.
Few do pull it off, but not very often.

 

[BD]

thats great that you got a steal but im sure when you put it up for sale your gonna be really upset that you just posted that info. your gonna be asking 30k for that car.

Kouki Monster:
they may be a touch high that is possible but if you read the letter it asks them to correct their own research. There obviously is no correct book but a guide is something expected on car that is only 15 years old.

davidf:
that is a really good deal. but a 92 with 50k just went for $34k at manheim dealer auction. and a 91 with 112k also went 3 weeks ago for $28k at the same dealer auction. But in actuality JeffShoots: paying $18k with 96k miles just made your deal look like a not so good deal. so now who really got a good deal great deal was your deal a great as you thought? thats the problem

these to me are perfect examples of why this car is not old enough for its buyers to be very experienced car buyers.

You just told me you don't own an NSX in a thread that was removed. What's going on?

 

[heySkippy]

I guess that may depend on whether or not jeffshoots's car is the last sale recorded when your insurances company does research. they do take into consideration latest sales and autotrader if you argue their initial value, but good luck getting actual replacement value. If you owe money on your car theres always gap insurance. Other than that its kinda difficult since the car is not old enough to qualify for agreed value in some states since its less than 20 years old. same problem right now with 911's

Again I ask, who among us has had trouble with an insurance company wanting to pay KBB value on a totaled car claim? The intent and purpose of insurance is to "make you whole" to the best of its ability up to the limits of the coverage.

I'm happy for jeffshoots finding a great deal, but unfortunately that value was obviously deemed based on some seller being mislead or under informed thanks to a nada or Kbb book. Every time that happens it costs us all little as NSX owners. If even only 10 people know about that specific sale thats already enough ammo for the next guy negotiating a sale or purchase. I'm using jeffshoots for example purposes only nothing personal.

How does it cost us NSX owners? Just because someone else got a terrific bargain doesn't mean I feel any pressure to offer up another bargain.

Cowards sit negatively waiting for 8 of 10 efforts fail, than later reap the benefits of the 2 that prevail.

Cowards? That's pretty strong considering your so-called benefits are rather weak.

A whole form of NSX owners, and not a single one willing to put some effort together? 1 minute to send an email? Are you guys serious? Or am I getting the wrong idea here? An effort being knocked down before tried? Thats contrary all the decisions in life that would even get you anywhere near affording an NSX in the first place.

I just don't see the problem. Okay, the KBB book value is way off base. Who cares? You do, but I don't. Seems to me that you're tilting at windmills here.