Lithium Pros Battery Review:
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/188095-Lithium-Pros-Battery-with-BMS?p=1840310#post1840310
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/188095-Lithium-Pros-Battery-with-BMS?p=1840310#post1840310
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Lightweight battery, odyssey, braille, etc. Information:
- Thread starter TURBO2GO
- Start date
I'm looking at another lightweight battery for my track car.
I've had my Odyssey 680 in my road car for 11 years. Has been dead flat twice. I try to always connect the battery tender when not in use.
Not sure if that is a record?
I've had my Odyssey 680 in my road car for 11 years. Has been dead flat twice. I try to always connect the battery tender when not in use.
Not sure if that is a record?
Even for their largest X8 battery costing $1k, Aliant offers NO protective battery management system and a normal/max charge current of 24/40 Amps.
If you want a safe, reliable Li battery in your car, looks like the larger EarthX and Lithium Pro models are still the ones to beat.
Dave
If you want a safe, reliable Li battery in your car, looks like the larger EarthX and Lithium Pro models are still the ones to beat.
Dave
Dear Dave,
Another NSX forum users alerted us to this site and I thought I would try and respond. (The mail box for the forum administrator is full and can not accept any messages and they have deleted another post that I tried to respond to) so we will see if this gets posted as they apparently do not allow manufacturers to post.
I am sorry about your experience with the ETX36 as this battery is not designed for a car unless it is a 60 amp alternator or less. The ETX48E is designed for the 120 amp alternator or less and retails for $725 and weighs 7.7 pounds. We will have a new model coming out in a month that will be designed for an 80 amp alternator or less but we do not have the final pricing/spec's yet to publish.
On the website, for the race car market, we only have the one battery listed for your use based on the alternator size as this is very important to match up the design spec's of your battery to it's application. Same idea as matching up the right fuel, tire size and oil used. We do have a fully integrated battery management system that protects from over discharge (low voltage), over charge, short circuit, temperature monitoring (cold and hot) and cell balancing built in. We do not have a battery for an alternator that is larger than the 120 amp alternator vehicle. We also have a manual on the website with the design specifications as well for your review. In order to design a lithium battery that is compatible with the amount of current that your alternator can put out, it does require a larger sized (power wise) battery and that is why the smaller ones being used in this thread (Shorai and Ballistic) are not doing well. They are not designed for this application. The ones that are, the Braille, Lithium Pro and EarthX 48E do have models for this application but you are correct, they are not inexpensive....but they do weigh a fraction of the weight of the lead acid and if you are trying to remove weight from your car, this is the least expensive way to do it.
Hope that clears up any confusion out there.
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Kathy thank you for chiming in but I am having a hard time grasping why you need to match the battery to the Alternator's total current capability. I understand how electricity works, that explanation isn't making sense to me. Can you explain in more technical detail? Your 48 is $750. The Largest Shorai is $300. That is a 150% price increase over the Shorai. I created this whole thread because I believed there was a lot of deception in the battery market world. I am not accusing you of that, I am just looking for a more detailed explanation of why someone should spend 2.5 times the cost of what is already an expensive battery.
What are the options for us in Europe ? Lithium batteries cannot be shipped by traditional means - so we need a local reseller.
[MENTION=14678]TURBO2GO[/MENTION]: i believe over-current will damage lithium cells. Also alternator capacity is a good indicator of what is the current draw of a specific car model, and too much current draw on an undersized battery will also shorten its lifespan...
[MENTION=14678]TURBO2GO[/MENTION]: i believe over-current will damage lithium cells. Also alternator capacity is a good indicator of what is the current draw of a specific car model, and too much current draw on an undersized battery will also shorten its lifespan...
Zoom I don't think there is any significant current draw on the battery when the car is running. That's on the alternator not on the battery. You can start the engine and remove the battery completely and the engine runs fine. There's also a voltage regulator that keeps tabs on all this draw and recharge. A car with a CTSC uses a prelude alternator that supplies significantly less current. It still runs just fine. Cars with massive competitive stereos use higher current alternators.... They too run fine. I believe we are talking about capacity and supply capability with the larger alternators not a situation where current is just forced into components willy nilly. As things need more power they draw more power... Yay home you can supply a small 12V DC device with and remove its wall wart power supply and replace it with one 10X its size. It won't matter. It's just still going to draw what it needs. The larger supply simply ensures that it does not run out of supply capability. I believe this applies in the car too. Supply capability can be increased, and I believe that should actually help save the battery. The battery as far as I known has two jobs in the car: 1. Start the car. 2. It's accessed temporarily when the alternator is tapped out and can no longer meet demand alone. If the alternator can supply more current, the battery is kept charged and is tapped less often. Someone with more knowledge of things can perhaps correct what I'm
Saying but from all I know this is how it works.
Saying but from all I know this is how it works.
shawn110975
Suspended
I had an Interstate brand battery in my NSX I drive daily for 6 years now never once dead. I don't see why you guys have problems with your batteries maybe because I am in FL where the temp is almost the same all year long.
now my wifes 08 TL typeS has gone thru 6 batterys in the same amount of time and those were all Acura branded batteries. one of the acura batteries actually blew a hole on one of the terminal posts I stopped using acuras brand and swapped to a Walmart unknown brand last week because it was 3AM nothing else was open.
As for saving a few lbs on a battery really? Will those 3 lbs give you that little extra edge you need while racing the civic next to you? or is your mpg going to go up by 1 mile?
in conclusion I will just forget about this thread since I have never had battery issues living in FL. carry on
no-one ever reads my posts anymore anyway so im barking up a tree, another reason I don't post much anymore, stopped selling my NSX parts, cuz it gets old, maybe im getting old and just cant take "who cares " problems anymore
now my wifes 08 TL typeS has gone thru 6 batterys in the same amount of time and those were all Acura branded batteries. one of the acura batteries actually blew a hole on one of the terminal posts I stopped using acuras brand and swapped to a Walmart unknown brand last week because it was 3AM nothing else was open.
As for saving a few lbs on a battery really? Will those 3 lbs give you that little extra edge you need while racing the civic next to you? or is your mpg going to go up by 1 mile?
in conclusion I will just forget about this thread since I have never had battery issues living in FL. carry on
no-one ever reads my posts anymore anyway so im barking up a tree, another reason I don't post much anymore, stopped selling my NSX parts, cuz it gets old, maybe im getting old and just cant take "who cares " problems anymore
[MENTION=14678]TURBO2GO[/MENTION] you are right, i understood the same thing - starter motor current seems to be the main factor for sizing the battery.
I was also referring to the charging current that one if not regulated properly can lead to reduced lifespan, these more expensive lithium batteries seem to have a specific electronic circuit for protection against that. If not regulated on battery side it will draw too much current (up to alternator capacity) and basically kill itself in the process.
I was also referring to the charging current that one if not regulated properly can lead to reduced lifespan, these more expensive lithium batteries seem to have a specific electronic circuit for protection against that. If not regulated on battery side it will draw too much current (up to alternator capacity) and basically kill itself in the process.
Dave, check out posts 92 and 101. They contain summaries from a lot of time researching these types of batteries. I am not an expert, but I have two hybrid cars with lithium cells, and enough lithium supply to power my home for a day. My NSX has a Lithium Pros battery.
Our starters nominally draw 200 amps on a cold start and around 250 amps on hot starts (assuming 10.2:1 CR, and no superchargers). After starting, there is a current surge from the alternator back to recharge the battery. Granted, it is of short duration, but still, the cheap lithium batteries are not designed for this high current from our 90-100 amp alternators. Each start slowly kills these cheaper batteries.
Also google thermal runaway if you try to crank your car for too long of a period with these cheap cells. That's why thermal protection is important too, as well as MOSFETS to break the bus bar during overcurrent, under/over voltage, and thermal constraints. It is another potential failure point in your car, but worth it in my opinion.
I contacted EarthX a long time ago because I did not like these Shorai batteries. I don't think they are safe for our application. An ATV, sure.
My $0.02.
Dave
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Well, it's not true that no one ever reads your posts. I read them and enjoy them (most of the time, anyway). You've provided a good service to all of us, through your posts as well as your parts sales. I hope you reconsider and continue to post here.
Most people on this site only ever talk about losing weight. Sometimes I wonder how many have actually corner balanced their car, and how many have added weight to different areas of the car to make it heavier for better balance. I look at how much people spend to save 10lbs sometimes and think about how easily they could go faster by keeping the 10lbs and spending the $1000 towards a better set of coilovers or adding safety equipment to their car to save their life. Target fixation on lighter weight is really silly sometimes.
Those interested in saving weight have already done the "freebies" or have targeted those mods with the most bang-for-the-buck.
If you were in need of a new battery soon anyways, this "cheap" $350 mod for the latest-generation battery was a great idea to save people 30 lbs... if it doesn't die prematurely on you or result in a fire.
Dave
That wasn't a direct shot at you [MENTION=12356]Mac Attack[/MENTION] . More of just a general statement from some of the stuff I have seen on here. Upgrading to something lighter because the OEM one died is a smart move. Upgrading from a 10lb Odyssey to a 7lb Lithium battery and spending $750 is more of what I am talking about.
I choose current conventional thinking of today over Honda budgeted thinking of the 90s any day. Just within reason.
I choose current conventional thinking of today over Honda budgeted thinking of the 90s any day. Just within reason.
No worries - I didn't take it as such... even though I am one of those that moved from a ~$150 16lb PC680 to an expensive 7lb lithium battery :smile:
The reason I did it wasn't so much weight savings as space/energy savings. After having various 680's over the past 8 years in my NSX, I needed something with more power while cranking (the AEM Series 2 is fickle about min. voltage during cranking). I also needed to maintain the small volume as the front has an air compressor, (2) custom aluminum 1 gallon air tanks, coilover reservoirs, and efficient radiator ducting.
My research led me down the path of the new lithium batteries obviously. But, the $300 lithium batteries are borderline dangerous in our applications IMO. To do it safely requires almost double the investment.
Dave
The reason I did it wasn't so much weight savings as space/energy savings. After having various 680's over the past 8 years in my NSX, I needed something with more power while cranking (the AEM Series 2 is fickle about min. voltage during cranking). I also needed to maintain the small volume as the front has an air compressor, (2) custom aluminum 1 gallon air tanks, coilover reservoirs, and efficient radiator ducting.
My research led me down the path of the new lithium batteries obviously. But, the $300 lithium batteries are borderline dangerous in our applications IMO. To do it safely requires almost double the investment.
Dave
shawn110975
Suspended
Mac I wasn't attacking either was just a general " I really don't understand " the battery problems other have.
From the little that I read on them while looking it seemed that in order of the battery to have any chance of surviving daily or weekend life it needed a battery management circuit system to deal with the many things that can cause the batter to fail. i.e. heat, under voltage, over voltage, short circuiting, unequal cell drainage.
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecID=10410
I remember seeing motoiq reviewing this battery and having good reviews.
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecID=10410
I remember seeing motoiq reviewing this battery and having good reviews.
Dave that is good info, went through it again and I hear the concerns... I am just not willing to spend $900-1600 on a lithium that has some extra protection circuitry for the cells. You can replace your Shorai 3 times... with no pro-rated warranty you can literally toss it in the trash and still have spent less. I was the first guy to get shorai before Collin ever made his mount or started selling a kit. I must have deep cycled this thing 10 times. And I finally killed it... but it held up to a lot of abuse that kills even regular batteries. I think with some extra care if you get 2-3 years out of it, for may of us it is still the best alternative.
Another option is dual batteries. You double the capacity. You are still only at 10 pounds. If one goes low, the second then kicks in. RV's routinely use isolated dual battery systems. Even two Shorais weigh nothing and take up little space. I asked collin for a double-mount but he ignored me LOL
That's impressive and I'm glad its worked out for you.
One thing to keep in mind then is if you ever find yourself cranking over the car for an extended period of time (i.e. more than 5 seconds), make sure you give it a rest to let the battery cells cool. How long that cooldown period should be... I don't know. But, rarely do we have issues and need to crank these things over and over!
Dave
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No problem Shawn - I don't see any of this as attacking.
I'm just hoping to educate those that may not be familiar with these batteries that the cheaper <$300 batteries WERE NOT designed for our electrical system and may lead to serious safety issues like catching fire. And this isn't an attack on anyone currently using them or any vendors that are selling them - do your own research before buying though.
The technology is changing rapidly, and costs continually decrease. If you're on the fence about jumping into the lithium batteries, my advice is to wait another year as the prices come down on the batteries specifically designed for vehicle applications.
Dave
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That is one of the better ones, but there is no warranty on that battery. Furthermore, the charge current is only 24 amps, and there are no thermistors to protect on thermal runaway. It's a step up from the Shorai for sure, but it's double the cost too.
There's a reason Porsche uses a $1500 Lithium battery in their vehicles... it's not just Porsche markup - it's to protect the car.
Dave
I have had my Odyssey PC925MJT in my '91 since 11-14-2004
I use a battery disconnect switch when I am not using the car and think that is what gave me this long life. The manufacturer claims a 2 year shelf life without any charging for a disconnected Odyssey battery.
Here is a link to the switch
http://www.flamingriver.com/index.php/products/c0015/s0008
I use a battery disconnect switch when I am not using the car and think that is what gave me this long life. The manufacturer claims a 2 year shelf life without any charging for a disconnected Odyssey battery.
Here is a link to the switch
http://www.flamingriver.com/index.php/products/c0015/s0008
Here's another approach coming, a hybrid LiFePO4 and supercapacitor:
http://techcrunch.com/2015/08/12/oh...ar-battery-that-works-with-your-existing-car/
http://techcrunch.com/2015/08/12/oh...ar-battery-that-works-with-your-existing-car/
Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I just found some great info for my PC680 and wanted to pass it on.
I've had Odessey PC680's since I got my car (came with the car) and was told like an average car battery 2-3 years was standard. I bought my 4th one last November.
I was very aggravated that even with my battery tender it wouldn't last longer than 2+ years but I thought that was good with the small size and nature of the battery.
When my most recent one from November died in 7 months I looked for a warranty exchange with Odessey/Enersys. But they told me that warranties were only due to manufacturer defect.....in this case they believe what killed my battery was a bad battery charger/tender.
They also mentioned that if the battery was dead for an extended time it was probably no longer good any longer as these batteries need to maintain charge (it took 2 months to get something done as I've been busy with work)
So I'm thinking my Batts done.
One of the senior advisors told me to get a specific charger (Ctek: Mus7002) got one in Amazon for $93.
He also told me to use a specific mode (snowflake setting) to charge the battery for 24 hrs, then to connect the battery to the car and run it dead using headlights, then recharge it for 24 hours.
Well where other charges didn't work. .... this one did
So when it did, I recalled having another old Odessey battery that had been sitting on the shelf for over 9 months dead..... Odessey said it was trash.... but it's not
I now have 2 batteries. ... each showing 13 Volts
I've had Odessey PC680's since I got my car (came with the car) and was told like an average car battery 2-3 years was standard. I bought my 4th one last November.
I was very aggravated that even with my battery tender it wouldn't last longer than 2+ years but I thought that was good with the small size and nature of the battery.
When my most recent one from November died in 7 months I looked for a warranty exchange with Odessey/Enersys. But they told me that warranties were only due to manufacturer defect.....in this case they believe what killed my battery was a bad battery charger/tender.
They also mentioned that if the battery was dead for an extended time it was probably no longer good any longer as these batteries need to maintain charge (it took 2 months to get something done as I've been busy with work)
So I'm thinking my Batts done.
One of the senior advisors told me to get a specific charger (Ctek: Mus7002) got one in Amazon for $93.
He also told me to use a specific mode (snowflake setting) to charge the battery for 24 hrs, then to connect the battery to the car and run it dead using headlights, then recharge it for 24 hours.
Well where other charges didn't work. .... this one did
So when it did, I recalled having another old Odessey battery that had been sitting on the shelf for over 9 months dead..... Odessey said it was trash.... but it's not
I now have 2 batteries. ... each showing 13 Volts
Thanks for this detailed thread. Much appreciate it.
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