New Forced Induction, New Numbers

[lowellhigh79]

Nitrous Oxide is a proven safe and effective anesthetic gas. Quoting these potential effects, especially in the context of your actual exposure in an automotive setting is again misleading, especially in the original discussion of 2-nitropropane.

Pulmonary Hypertension: N2O does increase Pulmonary vascular resistance in patients who already have elevated Pulmonary artery pressures, but not in infants. Normal adults given anesthetic amounts of N2O (50-66%) will have an increase during the anesthetic.

Intestinal distension: N2O has a much higher blood:gas partition coefficient (34x) than Nitrogen. As a result, N2O will enter gas-containing body cavities ("gas bubble") much faster than the Nitrogen in those cavities can be removed by circulation. In cases of bowel distension or worse, bowel obstruction, this can worsen the situation. Actual rupture is far less of a concern than bowel ischemia and or necrosis due to high intraluminal pressures. These effects are dependent on the amount and duration of N2O exposure. Basically, you will need to continously breath 50% N2O for nearly 2 hours to double the size of the air in your gut.

Bone Marrow suppression: Studies have shown that prolonged exposure to N2O (done on dentists/ occupational exposure) can produce anemia, possibly via inhibition/suppression of B12 metabolism or DNA biosynthesis.

Best Regards,

Danny

 

[peiserg]

Nitrous Oxide is a proven safe and effective anesthetic gas. Quoting these potential effects, especially in the context of your actual exposure in an automotive setting is again misleading, especially in the original discussion of 2-nitropropane.

Pulmonary Hypertension: N2O does increase Pulmonary vascular resistance in patients who already have elevated Pulmonary artery pressures, but not in infants. Normal adults given anesthetic amounts of N2O (50-66%) will have an increase during the anesthetic.

Intestinal distension: N2O has a much higher blood:gas partition coefficient (34x) than Nitrogen. As a result, N2O will enter gas-containing body cavities ("gas bubble") much faster than the Nitrogen in those cavities can be removed by circulation. In cases of bowel distension or worse, bowel obstruction, this can worsen the situation. Actual rupture is far less of a concern than bowel ischemia and or necrosis due to high intraluminal pressures. These effects are dependent on the amount and duration of N2O exposure. Basically, you will need to continously breath 50% N2O for nearly 2 hours to double the size of the air in your gut.

Bone Marrow suppression: Studies have shown that prolonged exposure to N2O (done on dentists/ occupational exposure) can produce anemia, possibly via inhibition/suppression of B12 metabolism or DNA biosynthesis.

Best Regards,

Danny

I am well aware of the context of the conversation we are having. I am simply mentioning the potential side effects here since there seems to be a big deal made of the possibility of cancer from the other items being used. I would imagine (though I am by no means an expert) that it's pretty tough to get cancer from something such as nitro propane when it's being used at wide open throttle, as the motion of the vehicle would undoubtedly keep it behind the driver (in an nsx). I'd say the risk is the same in nitrous.

and FWIW it does not take close to 2 hours to double the size of a gas bubble at 50% nitrous. clinically observable results take considerably less time. ALthough, in the context of our discussion, even if it took 30 seconds, it would be irrelevent. No one gets 50% N2o exposure in driving anyways.

and what do infants have to do with out discussion, unless you just copied and pasted?

 

[lowellhigh79]

I am well aware of the context of the conversation we are having. I am simply mentioning the potential side effects here since there seems to be a big deal made of the possibility of cancer from the other items being used. I would imagine (though I am by no means an expert) that it's pretty tough to get cancer from something such as nitro propane when it's being used at wide open throttle, as the motion of the vehicle would undoubtedly keep it behind the driver (in an nsx). I'd say the risk is the same in nitrous.

and FWIW it does not take close to 2 hours to double the size of a gas bubble at 50% nitrous. clinically observable results take considerably less time. ALthough, in the context of our discussion, even if it took 30 seconds, it would be irrelevent. No one gets 50% N2o exposure in driving anyways.

and what do infants have to do with out discussion, unless you just copied and pasted?

Not sure where you're coming from. The whole point of my post was to show that even at anesthesia levels of N2O (usually run at 50-66% when used- which no one will ever see as applied to the automotive setting unless you're dumb enough to take it straight from the bottle), the side effects mentioned are irrelevent. As for doubling the size of bowel gas, yes it does take that long. The infant highlight was directed at the irrelevance of adding N2O, gasoline, brake fluid and asbestos in brake pads to the discussion of the hepatotoxic and possible carcinogenic effects of 2NP. As for exposure routes, I would hope Frank has tuned Armando's engine to combust most if not all of the 2NP with minimal to no 2NP coming out the exhaust. Exposure from handling and inhalation during pouring, storing, and transporting would be of primary concern, especially with an unsuspecting owner.

Regards,

Danny

 

[peiserg]

Not sure where you're coming from. The whole point of my post was to show that even at anesthesia levels of N2O (usually run at 50-66% when used- which no one will ever see as applied to the automotive setting unless you're dumb enough to take it straight from the bottle), the side effects mentioned are irrelevent. As for doubling the size of bowel gas, yes it does take that long. The infant highlight was directed at the irrelevance of adding N2O, gasoline, brake fluid and asbestos in brake pads to the discussion of the hepatotoxic and possible carcinogenic effects of 2NP. As for exposure routes, I would hope Frank has tuned Armando's engine to combust most if not all of the 2NP with minimal to no 2NP coming out the exhaust. Exposure from handling and inhalation during pouring, storing, and tranporting would be of primary concern, especially with an unsuspecting owner.

Regards,

Danny

where i'm coming from (i mentioned this already but will rephrase it for you) is that unless the guy is bathing in the 2np then i'm skeptical of the claims of carcinogenesis. You may as well mention in the same breath how every other thing we deal with is carcinogenic, like gasoline, brake fluid (i suppose), brake asbestos etc. Show me the link where the 2np is carcinogenic in the situation we are discussing, and I will concede the point. That is where i'm coming from... the nitrous was merely mentioned to illustrate that point further. Yes i understand that there's no bowel distension in the application we are discussing. but it's just as valid as saying 2np "will" cause cancer if you run it in your car.

Party on my fine feathered fajita pita

PS. as an aside (and i hate to do this. I'd prefer you took my word for it i'm not trying to be a jerk just debating a point), please refer to page 84 in "Anesthesia" volume 5 by Ronald Miller. I realize it's really not very detailed, as it's only 2877 pages long, and I just "happened" to have it on my shelf . On the off chance you are not sleeping with that book, it shows, by graphical analysis, the expansion of volume when using nitrous oxide within the body. "The volume doubles in ten minutes and triples in a half-hour." I will concede the point that the study was done with nitrous of 70% vs. 50% but the graphical extrapolation is pretty straight forward. In addition, it is mentioned that in the case of air embolism, with high dose nitrous, expansion takes seconds to minutes. This is correlated clinically by the rapid expansion of the balloon on the ET tube cuff.

 

[lowellhigh79]

where i'm coming from (i mentioned this already but will rephrase it for you) is that unless the guy is bathing in the 2np then i'm skeptical of the claims of carcinogenesis. You may as well mention in the same breath how every other thing we deal with is carcinogenic, like gasoline, brake fluid (i suppose), brake asbestos etc. Show me the link where the 2np is carcinogenic in the situation we are discussing, and I will concede the point. That is where i'm coming from... the nitrous was merely mentioned to illustrate that point further. Yes i understand that there's no bowel distension in the application we are discussing. but it's just as valid as saying 2np "will" cause cancer if you run it in your car.

Party on my fine feathered fajita pita

If the guy is "bathing in it", acute liver failure and death would be of much greater concern than the carcinogenic effects of 2NP. However, here is one link:

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/80-142.html

As for "carcinogenic in the situation we are discussing", I never made that claim. My initial objection was your including N2O (and Gasoline, brake fluid and asbestos in brake pads) in the 2NP discussion, thereby implying the relative innocuous nature of 2NP. As for your last statement, huh ? I would argue that exposure to trace amounts of N2O is nothing compared to trace amounts of 2NP. Take it to the extreme for argument sake (which was the point of my mentioning 50-66% N2O in bowel distension, pulmonary vasoconstriction and bone marrow suppression). Breathing 50% N2O may give you some of the effects you mentioned to varying degrees. Care to try this with 50% 2NP? Even 0.06% (600 ppm) 2NP has already been shown to cause death. Bathe in this my fine feathered fajita pita

Regards,

Danny

 

[lowellhigh79]

PS. as an aside (and i hate to do this. I'd prefer you took my word for it i'm not trying to be a jerk just debating a point), please refer to page 84 in "Anesthesia" volume 5 by Ronald Miller. I realize it's really not very detailed, as it's only 2877 pages long, and I just "happened" to have it on my shelf . On the off chance you are not sleeping with that book, it shows, by graphical analysis, the expansion of volume when using nitrous oxide within the body. "The volume doubles in ten minutes and triples in a half-hour." I will concede the point that the study was done with nitrous of 70% vs. 50% but the graphical extrapolation is pretty straight forward. In addition, it is mentioned that in the case of air embolism, with high dose nitrous, expansion takes seconds to minutes. This is correlated clinically by the rapid expansion of the balloon on the ET tube cuff.

No debating Dr. Miller needed however "and can increase the size of any gas bubbles you have in your intestinal tract" was the premise of your initial claims. Diffusion into air bubbles in blood is far far more rapid than gas exchang/diffusion into the bowel. This is why a pneumothorax can expand in minutes, as opposed to hours in the bowel. Remember Fick's equation/principle of diffusion? Not trying to be a jerk either, just debating the point. Since there is no mention of bowel obstrution in the Nitrous Oxide section of my Miller, please refer to this site (not placing priority above the "Bible" for Anesthesiologists):
http://www.ispub.com/ostia/index.php?xmlFilePath=journals/ija/vol3n2/inhal1.xml

"In patients with ileus, the volume of air in the bowel can double within 4 hours of nitrous oxide administration. The volume of air within a pneumothorax can double within 10 minutes if 70 percent nitrous oxide is administered. This can lead to a life-threatening tension pneumothorax. Diffusion of nitrous oxide into air bubbles will increase their size. It has therefore to be stopped immediately when air embolism is suspected"

Regards,

Danny

 

[MiamieNeSeX]

Very interesting reading.... pause......... pause................................NOT.

Maybe a medical Forum is in order.



Armando

 

[lowellhigh79]

Very interesting reading.... pause......... pause................................NOT.

Maybe a medical Forum is in order.



Armando

Hey Armando,

You have the best pics. Loved the W head on Pacino!

You're right about getting too far out on the medical stuff, but the debate did become medical and I wanted to put into perspective the relative "harmful" effects of Nitropropane when mentioned along with some of the more common and familiar automotive elements. N2O is a safe anesthetic used on countless patients in concentrations far far beyond its automotive application. You won't be handling brake fluid on every fillup as you will with 2NP, and you won't hurt your liver if you breathed in some gasoline during every filling up. Any skeptics should try breathing in 2NP straight from the bottle as some form or amount is inhaled directly during pouring and handling.

Bottom line, please exercise caution when handling the Nitropropane. Consider using a good half face respirator mask. It is not harmless and has some serious lasting effects.

Best Regards,

Danny

 

[MiamieNeSeX]

I have had no luck sourcing straight nitropropane. I have been using the methanol/distilled water mix for the last 500 miles or so. Car runs a bit richer, but nothing so far has even come close to it on the street. I did find this product manufactured by Klotz. At $55.00 a gallon it gets expensive to RD, although I havent yet used it as I am a bit tentative as to the effects of the added "Koolinal" . Maybe you could shed some light as to this product.

Armando

 

[MiamieNeSeX]

You quote good for an old man...................................


Armando

 

[Hugh]

Cool! Cancer in a can! :biggrin:

 

[MiamieNeSeX]

Cool! Cancer in a can! :biggrin:

As opposed to it in a box?

Armando

 

[Hugh]

As opposed to it in a box?
Armando

Unconvential yet original origami skills you've got there my friend! :smile:

(By the way, ya think you can resize that image to 800 pixel width so as to avoid the dreaded horizontal scroll bar?)

 

[MiamieNeSeX]

Unconvential yet original origami skills you've got there my friend! :smile:

(By the way, ya think you can resize that image to 800 pixel width so as to avoid the dreaded horizontal scroll bar?)

Not needed if you have a real laptop with a 17" screen



Armando

 

[Hugh]

Not needed if you have a real laptop with a 17" screen
Armando

I have a hand built PC running twin 19" flat panels at 1280x1024 resolution. If I maximize the browser tha scroll lines disappear but a lot of people don't do this. There's no reason to post a pic wider than 800 pixels. I usually post em 600 pixels wide. Still get great resolution and it allows a user to make better use of his/her desktop. Just a little netiquette. That's all. :smile:

By the way the Koolinal stuff in the Nitro blend seems like some sort of octane additive. Have you found out anything more about it?

 

[MiamieNeSeX]

By the way the Koolinal stuff in the Nitro blend seems like some sort of octane additive. Have you found out anything more about it?

I have read most of whats on the web, although still not sure if it has any deterimental effects to rubber seals, and or pump diaphrams.


Armando

 

[lowellhigh79]

I have had no luck sourcing straight nitropropane. I have been using the methanol/distilled water mix for the last 500 miles or so. Car runs a bit richer, but nothing so far has even come close to it on the street. I did find this product manufactured by Klotz. At $55.00 a gallon it gets expensive to RD, although I havent yet used it as I am a bit tentative as to the effects of the added "Koolinal" . Maybe you could shed some light as to this product.

Armando

Hi Armando,

My best guess is that "Koolinal" is mostly just methanol. Anything else is just the "blending agent" and won't have any impact on the performance end of it. Running your methanol/water mix with or without the Klotz Nitro will only rich out your car in its current nitropropane tune by Frank. If you do go with the Klotz, just blend in less methanol in your methanol/water mix, unless you are using windshield wiper premix- I did see the methanol cans though. Does Frank have any suggestions on 2NP sourcing? Good luck on your search.

Best Regards,

Danny

 

[lowellhigh79]

Hey Armando,

Are you working on some new form of alternative fuel source?
Methanol can- check!
Klotz Nitro- check!
Charcoal briquettes- check!

Either that or you're planning one hell of a barbeque!

Happy Holidays!

Danny

 

[MiamieNeSeX]

The original mix was 40% methanol 50% distilled water and 10% nitropropane. Would it be the same with the nitro/koolinal ?

Frank relocated and I am sure has his plate full right now so I have not tried to call him.

Armando


http://www.klotzlube.com/tech/KL-600.pdf

 

[Hugh]

Is this Nitro stuff designed to be added to the gas tank or to a liquid injection system? I get the feeling from reading the PDF that it's the former. It also clearly states that Koolinal "resists detonation and pre-ignition" which sounds exactly what Octane does.

I'd give this company a call and find out more if you can. I don't think you should be adding this to your liquid injection system. It's meant to be poured into the gas tank. Also ask them if they can supply you with pure 2NP for your injection system.

 

[lowellhigh79]

The original mix was 40% methanol 50% distilled water and 10% nitropropane. Would it be the same with the nitro/koolinal ?

Frank relocated and I am sure has his plate full right now so I have not tried to call him.

Armando


http://www.klotzlube.com/tech/KL-600.pdf

Hi Armando,

I'd confirm with Klotz that their Nitro is mostly just 2NP and methanol in a 50/50 mix (the other stuff probably is for lubricating the seals, etc). If it is, then simply use:

2 parts Klotz "Nitro" (or a little less if the 2NP is slightly more than methanol in the mix)
3 parts Methanol
5 parts Distilled H2O

I'd still check with Frank first. Besides, nothing can touch your car as it is right now anyway.

Best Regards,

Danny

 

[MiamieNeSeX]

Hi Armando,

I'd confirm with Klotz that their Nitro is mostly just 2NP and methanol in a 50/50 mix (the other stuff probably is for lubricating the seals, etc). If it is, then simply use:

2 parts Klotz "Nitro" (or a little less if the 2NP is slightly more than 50% of the mix)
3 parts Methanol
5 parts Distilled H2O

I'd still check with Frank first. Besides, nothing can touch your car as it is right now anyway.

Best Regards,

Danny

I spoke with their rep before I purchased the 2 gallons, the mix is 50% Nitropropane , the remainder being some methanol and various lubricants which he did not get int specifics about.

Hugh, wether I inject it using the factory fuel injectors or the misting system, the result is the same(added fuel and oxygen in the combustion chambers)


Armando

 

[lowellhigh79]

I spoke with their rep before I purchased the 2 gallons, the mix is 50% Nitropropane , the remainder being some methanol and various lubricants which he did not get int specifics about.

Hugh, wether I inject it using the factory fuel injectors or the misting system, the result is the same(added fuel and oxygen in the combustion chambers)


Armando

The key is knowing if the Nitropropane and the methanol are in equal proportions or not. The rep should be able to confirm this without revealing the rest of their proprietary information. Stick with using your reservoir and not the gas tank. Adding it into the gas tank will eventually give you unpredictable amounts of your mix and you don't want to end up with more than 10% 2NP at your current state of tune.

Regards,

Danny

 

[Flexer]

The key is knowing if the Nitropropane and the methanol are in equal proportions or not. The rep should be able to confirm this without revealing the rest of their proprietary information. Stick with using your reservoir and not the gas tank. Adding it into the gas tank will eventually give you unpredictable amounts of your mix and you don't want to end up with more than 10% 2NP at your current state of tune.

Regards,

Danny

To add to that. I haven’t seen your methanol set-up, know what PSI pump or regulator you use, or size nozzle, but I would second Danny in that you should not put it in your gas tank. PLUS if sized correctly, which I assume Frank did, for proper atomization you will need to have it run through your meth system to give it proper time to mix with the intake air.

Also if your meth set-up is like mine it only starts praying at a certain boost level to avoid bad atomization at low volume and slowed timing.

Also if your meth is set-up like mine the psi runs linearly to add more volume as boost increases.

I don't know the set-up Frank did for you, but just adding to your gas tank could be bad news, but for sure would require a new tune.

A question I would like to know more about is the differences in care that need to be taken with set-up of a liquid injection of propane and a air injection of propane?

How is the meth injection set-up on your car Armondo?


J. R.

 

[lowellhigh79]

Also if you meth set-up is like mine it only starts praying at a certain boost level to avoid bad atomization at low volume and slowed timing.


J. R.

J.R.,

That line and typo is pure classic. Gotta love the meth to make your NSX run like it's on crack

Regards,

Danny