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New NSX

At the end of the day, I'm sure that although people are saying they hate it on this forum, as long as it is not a pig, handles reasonably ok/well, and is at a price point that is a comparable to others in its class (M6, Aston, E55 AMG, etc...) people will sell their NSX.

That is a very big assumption that you seem to be making there, maybe you have not owned your NSX long enough to understand and to realize that the handling characteristics/dynamics of a MR platform based car is *significantly* different to a FR(FMR), once you get used to a MR car it's hard to drive anything else.

A significant number of the folks who are expressing their displeasure of the ASC design are long term owners of the NSX, so maybe your views will be different 6~7 years down the road after your NSX ownership. And maybe by then Honda will have finally come out with another MR car again :rolleyes:

P.S. A lot of folks at TOV seem to be happy with the ASC design, again I wonder how many of them have actually driven a MR car :confused:
 
Maybe this concept is a decoy, so that we all think... ok this will be it and get mad about it.. but than when the Tokyo show comes they hit us with the real deal.. BAM fooled you guys... wasabi in your eyes.
 
That is a very big assumption that you seem to be making there, maybe you have not owned your NSX long enough to understand and to realize that the handling characteristics/dynamics of a MR platform based car is *significantly* different to a FR(FMR), once you get used to a MR car it's hard to drive anything else.

A significant number of the folks who are expressing their displeasure of the ASC design are long term owners of the NSX, so maybe your views will be different 6~7 years down the road after your NSX ownership. And maybe by then Honda will have finally come out with another MR car again :rolleyes:

P.S. A lot of folks at TOV seem to be happy with the ASC design, again I wonder how many of them have actually driven a MR car :confused:

As far as I understand, the ASC will be front-mid engine drive, e.g. the engine will be behind the front axis. As such, with good weight-balance, it should still handle reasonably well. This is the case with the Corvette and other similar cars. As far as experience with the cars - I've owned a S2000 and driven the car for 2+ years with some moderate track usage and as many and I think can attest, it is a very capable car. Although I recently have had the NSX (a few thousand miles..) I can compare the 2 and I think they are both very good. I understand that in theory - and in practice on the track for seasoned drivers, the NSX may very well have an edge all things being equal, but the S2000, even 'with the front engine', does extremely well. Many if not most drivers do not have the skill to take full advantage of it’s handling abilities.

Do you diagree? I think (or hope) the ASC will be an S2000 but just a 'longer' version of the S2000 (with all those creature comforts that *hopefully* won't tip it into the fat section...but I'm not holding my breath) It could end up being a fat TL (which is what it will probably be).. and then all bets are off.
 
Ugh..

No way am I going to consider an ugly GT car from Honda when there are so many other appealing actual sports cars out there. I love my NSX, but I don't see me buying any more Honda products in the forseeable future. I have absolutely no interest in this thing - give me a Cayman S, 911 GT3, Exige, or ford gt any day from what is currently in the marketplace.

In the future? Who knows, but this thing is a ways behind an LF-A in my book.
 
ASC:

Acura's Supra Copy
Almost Square as Cadillac
Almost Saturn Class
Ass Similar to Celica
Absolute Sales Catastrophe
Audi's Smiling Confidently
Assanine Styling from California
Average Sporty Coupe
Acura Solicits Chicks
Angry Sad Customers

LOL.

Anyone Swap for Carrera?
Another Shitty Corvette
Aging Seniors' Coupe
Almost Sportscar - Comatose
 
Oh...what we've all been waiting for...a killer V10...but I concur with many...front engine??? A non-starter, V10 or not. Sigh...

I'll simply enjoy my new 2001 until Acura creates the killer mid-engine replacement.
 
As far as I understand, the ASC will be front-mid engine drive, e.g. the engine will be behind the front axis. As such, with good weight-balance, it should still handle reasonably well. This is the case with the Corvette and other similar cars. As far as experience with the cars - I've owned a S2000 and driven the car for 2+ years with some moderate track usage and as many and I think can attest, it is a very capable car. Although I recently have had the NSX (a few thousand miles..) I can compare the 2 and I think they are both very good. I understand that in theory - and in practice on the track for seasoned drivers, the NSX may very well have an edge all things being equal, but the S2000, even 'with the front engine', does extremely well. Many if not most drivers do not have the skill to take full advantage of it’s handling abilities.

Do you diagree? I think (or hope) the ASC will be an S2000 but just a 'longer' version of the S2000 (with all those creature comforts that *hopefully* won't tip it into the fat section...but I'm not holding my breath) It could end up being a fat TL (which is what it will probably be).. and then all bets are off.
As good as the AP1/AP2 S2K are they don't deliver the same driving experience as the NSX does.

If Honda/Acura was planning to make a longer version of the S2K with all the creature comforts (as you mentioned) then they should have used a S2K picture above the ASC during the introduction of the car at the show instead of using a NSX.

It pretty much feels like a bait & switch, where the expectations that were created by the multiple press releases/announcements that were made by the Honda CEO over the years were not met by the ASC.

IMHO I've noticed that the comments made by the long time owners of the NSX are quite different from those made by the more recent owners who are still in the honeymoon phase with their cars.

Many of the long time owners have been waiting many years for a car to replace/upgrade their NSX's with, and for many of us the ASC does not seem to be the car ;).
 
After looking at the photos here ASC
I think it looks fairly nice, with a bit more finishing on the lines it should be a nice GT. It will propably be based on the RL's floor plan except it will have 2 doors and a V-10 :smile: . I know it isn't a mid engine car, based mostly on this countrys buying habits and economics, but I believe it will have all the performance any of us will be able to handle. I would consider getting one, only because the 2 Acura's I own now have been great cars and I am sure the next performance car from Honda/Acura should be a great car also. It is going to have a V-10... think of the possibilities:biggrin:
 
ASC:

Acura's Supra Copy
Almost Square as Cadillac
Almost Saturn Class
Ass Similar to Celica
Absolute Sales Catastrophe
Audi's Smiling Confidently
Assanine Styling from California
Average Sporty Coupe
Acura Solicits Chicks
Angry Sad Customers

lmao:biggrin:

how bout...
Acura's Shitiest Concept(ever):mad: :tongue:
 
A few comments, and I will try to be gentle... as I full well realize some PM from Acura's design studio just has to be reading this thread and sweating their next performance review.

While initial impressions do count, and I really tried to look at each of the prototype shots- front 3/4's, and tail and *not* jump to a negative impression like everyone else- hey, it was difficult what else can I say? After finally reading the official Honda press release unveiling speech, I inserted my own helpful annotations for JON IKEDA per below which you are free to pass on to him:


Good afternoon, everyone. After almost 20 years of designing vehicles I can honestly say that I can't remember being as excited about a car as I am about this Advanced Sports Car Concept. When the team and I designed the latest generation TL, we had to be concerned with all the practical aspects of a production car, but with this concept we could really let our imaginations run wild. We could break free of conventional design theories and explore whole new styling concepts and design languages, and with good reason.

That is fantastic. In the first paragraph he announces that he used to be on the team that designed the TL. Not the lead engineer whom is responsible for having dominated Super GT in 1998... this guy was stuck in meetings figuring out how many cup holders can flip out of a DIN sized hole in the dash or how much the voice activated navigation system would impact project costs on an excel spreadsheet. Very confidence inspiring. Bury yourself in the first few sentences.



Over the past few years, automotive designers have faced a growing challenge. Like all of you, we want to embrace the incredible new technology that's currently being developed at an accelerated pace, especially here at Acura. But at the same time, we don't want to lose the emotional appeal we all love about the most striking and evocative automotive designs. In other words, designers must find a way to allow technology and emotion to co-exist; to creatively fuse precision engineering with passionate execution.

What is that growing challenge? Making good designs or finding steady work? Sounds like some non-specific press BS to me. Passionate execution??? We don't care if the designers are having a good time, buy them some video games if they want to goof off... our NSX is serious business over here.



This is especially important for us, as technology and emotion have been the two main tenets of the Acura brand since our beginning more than 20 years ago. With all that in mind, we embarked on an aggressive new approach to design. And we developed this, the Acura "Advanced Sports Car Concept."

It's a bold and provocative design execution that attempts to define the concept of "Advance" which Mr. Fukui mentioned earlier. It's our idea of what an exotic high-performance sports car can look like in the not so distant future, while retaining some subtle design cues from our first generation NSX.

Perhaps he is referring to the fact that the original NSX had two doors.



In the exterior styling, you'll see definitive design elements that communicate that fine balance of technical precision and emotion I spoke of a moment ago. For example, laser-sharp edges throughout the vehicle represent a powerful sense of engineering precision. The side of the car and the dramatic hood surfaces feature what we call sheer, machined, surfacing, again, to convey a feeling of technical exactness.

This precision is subtly balanced by more natural design elements. Free-flowing directional lines, like the one here on the car's flank, appear and then disappear into the body to mimic the random patterns found throughout nature. These taut lines and unexpected surface transitions also add an element of tension and suspense, contributing to the strong emotion of the overall design. Together, these three design elements create what we call "Keen-Edge Dynamic". They represent the Precision, Technology, and Emotion inherent in our styling.

I get it, we won't have to buy Taitec rear quarter panels and you also think defined lines look cool and will use it to set you apart from GM.



The long, powerful hood, low slung cabin and short wide deck work together to create a powerful sense of anticipation - almost like a slingshot pulled back and straining to be released.

Like the Pontiac Cross fire? Let me guess, HR got a deal on now out of work college grad designers from Detroit.



And with a V10 engine and Super Handling All-Wheel Drive power-train it will be a very powerful and precise slingshot.

Right... true to the minimalist NSX design philosophy from 91' right? If we just throw a V10 and AWD in that front engine bay then we'll have our own marketable GTR. That is what took you 15 years to figure out? 4 more cylinders and AWD?



We even pursued the direction of "Keen Edge" styling in the wheel design. They are 19-inches at the front, 20 at the rear and in my opinion, are the most visually striking we've ever designed at Acura.

I didn't even have to read the press release to know that design idea came from LA. 19 and 20" wheels? That's Honda's super secret advanced sports car technology? That sure didn't come from Suzuka.. what is this a Dodge Magnum or a sports car you are building? No spinners?



This "Advanced Sports Car Concept" was designed here in the United States, and you can anticipate more forward-looking, ground-breaking, designs from us as our new Acura Design Center in California comes online in just a few months.

*Great * We can't wait... :rolleyes:



On behalf of Mr. Fukui and myself, thank you for attending. Now, I'd like to invite all of you to take a closer look at our new Acura Advanced Sports Car Concept.

The only thing I'll be taking a look at is my NA2 in my garage. To think the corvette guys sweated fixed headlights on the new C6. Let the Cali designers take reign and those enthusiasts would have burnt that design studio to the ground.
 
Okay you guys I'm just back from the autoshow and seeing the ASC. Very nice car and very sporty. It looks like a concept ( no door handles , sideview mirrors etc ). Looks very similar in proportion to the Lexus LF-A. I like the ASC better than the Lexus and I'm sure once they get beyond concept it will look better ( Can't wait for the Tokyo show:biggrin: ) better than the Lexus.

NOW I'M SAYING THIS AND YOU GUYS CAN TAKE IT AS YOU WILL. WHEN I SPOKE TO WOMAN AT THE ACURA BOOTH I ASKED HER TWO THINGS
1. WILL THE CAR AT THE TOKYO AUTOSHOW BE MORE OF A FINISHED DESIGN AND SHE SAID "YES"

2. SO THEY ARE DEFINITELY GOING WITH THE FRONT ENGINE CONFIGURATION AND SHE SAID "I'M NOT ALLOWED TO SAY"

She looked me right in the eyes and didn't flinch or hesitate when she said this so it didn't seem like she just didn't know. So it might mean something else is in the works as well or the final placement is not finalized. TAKE IT AS YOU WILL.

They could just be doing some extensive A B testing. Once they analyze the feedback they received on both the HSC and the ASC they'll decide which direction to go. I hope...
 
Call me prehistoric, but I remember when sports cars were designed by engineers in wind tunnels. This was designed by a "Stylist". The front tapers at angles of 19.5 degrees, the tetrahedral constant. The presiding theme appears to be the golden aspect ratio of 1:1.618, responsible for such shapes as snail shells, starfish, and the UN building.

NSX Stlyling cues:"Although modern in its appearance, the Advanced Sports Car Concept retains the subtle cues associated with its predecessor, the NSX. The concept's slim, LED headlights are pushed wide and designed to mimic the pop-up headlights found on the first generation NSX. Other styling hints include a modern take on wraparound rear taillights and the all black cockpit."

What ever happened to Japanese design aesthetics, now apparently relegated only to downscale Honda products?

There are muscle cars, and there are sports cars. A muscle car is all about what the car can do. A sports car is all about what the driver can do. This is not a sports car.
 

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A few comments, and I will try to be gentle... as I full well realize some PM from Acura's design studio just has to be reading this thread and sweating their next performance review.

While initial impressions do count, and I really tried to look at each of the prototype shots- front 3/4's, and tail and *not* jump to a negative impression like everyone else- hey, it was difficult what else can I say? After finally reading the official Honda press release unveiling speech, I inserted my own helpful annotations for JON IKEDA per below which you are free to pass on to him:

..//..

Great stuff right there. :smile:

While I really hope that someone from Honda actually reads this stuff, I either don't think that they do or they don't care. We've been talking on this forum for a long time about what the next generation NSX would and should be like, and it doesn't look like they listened to us at all. Why should they take heed now? I think that this is a lost cause, and Honda has successfully thumbed their noses at us and everyone involved with Ayrton Senna's contribution to the automotive world. I mean, just how big of a set of cajones does it take to compare the ASC to (and put up a photo of) the NSX during the ASC's unveiling?
 
Its just a prototype.

Too early to tell, too early to bash. When I see the finished product, I will make the final judgement.

Like all things in life, until you seen it or experience it, any assumptions is worthless, you think you know, but you don't.

I am not a one make car guy. This look like ASC's close competitor. Look like next decade will be the high power era, lets see what they will do at the Nürburgring with professional drivers.
2-2009-lexus-lf-a-concept.jpg

1-2009-lexus-lf-a-concept.jpg
 
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Like I said before. I like the ASC. I'm keeping my NSX b/c there will never be another car like it, but now I might have a chance to have a car that looks and has the power of an Aston Martin or the new XK and it won't break down. :smile:
 
Its just a prototype.

Too early to tell, too early to bash. When I see the finished product, I will make the final judgement.

Like all things in life, until you seen it or experience it, any assumptions is worthless, you think you know, but you don't.
..

This is what I am saying. It's hard to draw conclusions, but if a few 'basic' assumptions can be made (V10, 500 HP, front-mid engine layout, good weight distribution...) it should be a respectable car.

I think a few of us (John..) have smoked too much and put too much $$ from the NSX crack pipe to be able to appreciate any other car-drug...

Go ASC go! The only thing I hope, is that it's not heavy!
 
Soichiro Honda strong vision and his full involvement in the NSX project is what led the NSX to leave its legacy. NSX was Mr. Honda's baby and he had the balls to say "cost be damned" and "make me the world best sports car." He wanted nothing but the best. In the development stage, Honda worked with Pininafarina for early prototypes of the NSX. Production would be done at a newly built and dedicated Tochigi assembley plant using non-traditional assembly process to ensure utmost quality. Assembly line workers were all hand picked.

In the early years of the development, there are NSX mules driving around with V8 and V12. It was later determined that these engine would result in excessive weight and it disrupts the balance of the car. The target weight was 3000 lbs and 250 horsepower. The 91 NSX weight in at 3050 lbs, hence Honda dialed in 270 horses to compensate.

With his passing in 1991, his vision may live on in the leaders that followed, but the passion is gone. It takes a leader with strong conviction and passion to build an NSX. After Soichiro, the CEOs that followed including Fukui may have been great leaders and but they are politicians who tries to make everyone happy. As a result, there are compromises. We have cars designed by a committee. Honda's vision lived because we have NSX updates in 1997 and 2002. But there was no one with a passion driving it hence the updates took so long to coming and the technology /design wasn't fully updated.

The sales volumes were low and it was hard to justify the investments, but a leader with strong conviction would have carried on the torch with the same passion that Soichiro did. A vehicle like this needs not turn a profit because it captures our dreams and it shows Honda's pride to the world.

Things has changed. The painstaking details Mr. Honda went thru is longer in place. In 2004, NSX production was moved to a mainstream plant. What happend to exquisit attention with a team based assembly operation? Now we have V10 because that what the public wants. What happend to balance and lightweight that the NSX exceled in? We have car design by team in LA who worked on the Acura TL instead of working with the best experienced sports car designers in the world.

Porsche is fine example of what is gone right. Their vision and passion are will intact. They stay true to their heritage and doesn't give in to trends. They still use 6 cylinders for their bread and butter sports cars. As a result, the cars evolve and the owners come back, and new owners sign on. It is same formula for the most part. Porsche is almost anti-technology unless there is a true driver benfit. While I don't care for their looks, many do, because they feel it is a timeless design. Their design evolves, but not by much from generation to generation. This is how you build a heritage and a following. No wonder that in the last few years, the company is recognized with the most profit per vehicle sale.

IF honda wants to continue making sports cars, they can learn a few things from Porsche. Stick with something good, build on it, evolve it and the heritage and the public following will come. Bring back the NSX formula.
 
But thats just it. The NSX forumula, while it made a great car, produced a loser for Honda. I bet if someone stood up and said "Lets Do That Again", they'd get canned. Losing massive amounts of money just to have a Halo car is not great business.

Porsche can sell 997 after 997 because of its name. Honda cannot. It can sell 200 a year, maybe 1000 a year for the first two years. If it wants a Fcar killer, it too will be a loser.

THe only buyers are all of us ;)
 
But from 1991 to the present,

Porsche went 964 -> 993 -> 996 -> 997. 4 cars.
Ferrari went 348 -> 355 -> 360 -> 430. 4 cars.
Corvette went C4 -> C5 -> C6, w/ thundering Z06 variants.

How many NSXs would be selling today if they were on their 4th version of it? I think more than 1000, by now they would have built up quite a following, and the extra "shine" on the Acura name would be valuable way beyond actual sales. Its an awful shame they abandoned the car, and now it looks likely to disappear forever.
 
The sales volumes were low and it was hard to justify the investments, but a leader with strong conviction would have carried on the torch with the same passion that Soichiro did. A vehicle like this needs not turn a profit because it captures our dreams and it shows Honda's pride to the world.
I beg to differ. A strong leader will put the loyal workers and their families into consideration. Share holders can vote the leader off if he make a terrible mistake financially. No need to lose millions and make a car that doesn't sell.

They already achieve the dream with NSX. We already got our gift.

Is 400hp V6 enough for today's upper sports car market? Or should they slap on a turbo and reach 450~470hp?

500hp V10 NA sounds very attractive, The weight might be a concern, by how much we don't know yet.
 
IF honda wants to continue making sports cars, they can learn a few things from Porsche. Stick with something good, build on it, evolve it and the heritage and the public following will come. Bring back the NSX formula.

That's just it, Honda is not really a high end sports car company at all.

Porsche has a racing version of a car ready whenever they launch a new car to the market (944Cup Cars, 993 Cup Cars, 996 Cup Cars, 997 Cup Cars, etc,etc) The design and development of their sports cars goes side by side with their motorsports program.

BMW is similiar too (although they have become watered down in recent years), they have always had racing ready versions of their M platform cars whenever a new car is launched. (and sometimes even before the new car is launched)

Even GM has managed to do the same thing with their C5 and their C6's with the C5R's and the C6R's.

Ferrari as much as people have given them flack about things they still manage to have a F355 Challenge, F360 CS, F360GT, F430 CS, F430 GT.

If someone wants to order a Porsche, BMW, Ferrrari and even a Corvette he/she can pick and choose what options they want on the car, that is not possible with cars from Honda/Acura for the most part. You end up having to choose whatever the sales manager had decided to order as far as inventory goes. Is that really a luxury vendor?, at lest in my book that is not the case.

Honda is a car company that every now and then comes out with interesting cars, but for the most part it is still a manufacturer that focuses on their bread and butter cars. Real sports cars for the most part are really an afterthought for Honda.

Honda's tagline used to be: "The Power of Dreams", that tagline probably still applies to their bikes but it probably no longer applies to any cars.

I wonder how many people would say that they would "dream" about owning a car like the ASC??
 
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