Driving Ambition uses some form of Motul and said that with the Blackstone Labs oil analysis they got some good wear ratings, etc.
He's never used the Pennzoil Ultra as a comparison.
He's never used the Pennzoil Ultra as a comparison.
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Newbie question on motor oil for the NSX
- Thread starter golfnutintib
- Start date
You get a $10 rebate back after buying it at Walmart for $24.97. So your net cost is $14.97 (plus sales tax on the $24.97 purchase).
I use Shell Rotella T6 5W40 which has a good additive package and zinc content.
Pennzoil also has ZDDP
which?
ur lucky, they don't carry ultra in richmond, martinez, american canyon, or vacaville wally world.
U bastard!
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BTW, i have the 5w30 Euro Formula.
A main difference between the two oils is that the Euro 5W-30 is heavier at operating temp's with it's HTHSV of 3.5cP while the lighter regular 5W-30's has a HTHSV of 3.1cP.
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BTW, i have the 5w30 Euro Formula.
A main difference between the two oils is that the Euro 5W-30 is heavier at operating temp's with it's HTHSV of 3.5cP while the lighter regular 5W-30's has a HTHSV of 3.1cP.
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Can anyone point to any measured & quantitative metrics for engine performance / longevity / durability / wear / fuel economy, etc., in their NSX based on oil type used and how it's dictated their actions (choice of oil type, oil change intervals, and/or how they use their NSX or maintain their engine)? And if you had to use "regular" petrolium oil, how would that dictate or change those actions?
This is for the NSX or car you own or are responsible for maintaining - why step up to synthetic or even further into 'premium' synthetic$ other than because "I know it's better at extreme temps" or "this report says it lasts longer & it lets me lengthen my change intervals" or "it's good insurance" or "it shows I love my NSX more than others." No pointing to documented tests or reports by oil suppliers or engine builders/manufacturers. Anyone can search online for a high-level bullet list of generic advantages/disadvantages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_oil</SPAN>).
For the record, I use Mobil 1 mostly because it's what it's had since before 1995, "it's better," and "it'll show my NSX that I love it," lol. So even if synthetic oil may not really change my future actions (other than pull more money out of my wallet annually vs. traditional oil), I can offer at least one quantifiable metric about how synthetic specifically dictated some prior actions. A month after I bought my NSX I was re-sorting thru the maintenance records and suddenly realized it didn't get an oil change @Larry's for its TB/WP around 2010 and has had the same oil in it since around 2008!!! I was ready to get an oil change at 10pm at night before the car exploded in the garage from neglect. But then I realized it had gotten Mobil 1 for the past 10-15 years by owner #1 (who was/is a flight maintenance director and enthusiast racer himself - no slouch in the engine maintenance world), it saw only 3000-4000 miles in that time, it was stored in a temperature/humidity-controlled garage for the past 10-15 years and it was never cold-cycled (no start ups just to move the car 15 feet, etc. and it was always driven until the engine got "hot" to limit the unwanted moisture accumulation). That specifically dictated my action to not panic about the situation and go to bed instead of break into a dealership and change my oil that night. Nonetheless, it didn't prevent me from asking Larry the next day who further convinced me that the oil was "barely broken in" under the above scenario and of course I changed the oil a week or so later just to start my ownership "fresh." I'll probably change it annually despite likely putting on only a few thousand miles a year since I won't have a climate-controlled garage, and I'll continue to show the NSX my love with synthetic oil so we can both sleep better at night.
So this is an honest question and not trolling or flame bait. I was an engineer in the auto industry and gearbox industry and enjoyed being a part of quite a bit of bench-testing, dyno testing, and vehicle testing and teardowns of transmissions where I could measure the effects over time on lubricated parts over various test conditions & prototype part iterations. This was for automatic transmissions and Segway scooter gearboxes so I have zero hands-on engine/motor oil test experience here. So I'm not prompting to trap anyone and say "a-ha" you're full of baloney. This is for education. All this talk about synthetic and all this extra money we're going to spend on oil while probably still changing it more frequently than it needs - how has anyone proven to themself that synthetic is better on their particular NSX and worth the upcharge in material cost and how has that dictated their actions? If it just feels good to pay up for it (yes I'm in that camp) just like paying up for expensive wheels or other bling, then that's perfectly fine. Just looking for something more to sink my teeth into, for education...</SPAN>
This is for the NSX or car you own or are responsible for maintaining - why step up to synthetic or even further into 'premium' synthetic$ other than because "I know it's better at extreme temps" or "this report says it lasts longer & it lets me lengthen my change intervals" or "it's good insurance" or "it shows I love my NSX more than others." No pointing to documented tests or reports by oil suppliers or engine builders/manufacturers. Anyone can search online for a high-level bullet list of generic advantages/disadvantages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_oil</SPAN>).
For the record, I use Mobil 1 mostly because it's what it's had since before 1995, "it's better," and "it'll show my NSX that I love it," lol. So even if synthetic oil may not really change my future actions (other than pull more money out of my wallet annually vs. traditional oil), I can offer at least one quantifiable metric about how synthetic specifically dictated some prior actions. A month after I bought my NSX I was re-sorting thru the maintenance records and suddenly realized it didn't get an oil change @Larry's for its TB/WP around 2010 and has had the same oil in it since around 2008!!! I was ready to get an oil change at 10pm at night before the car exploded in the garage from neglect. But then I realized it had gotten Mobil 1 for the past 10-15 years by owner #1 (who was/is a flight maintenance director and enthusiast racer himself - no slouch in the engine maintenance world), it saw only 3000-4000 miles in that time, it was stored in a temperature/humidity-controlled garage for the past 10-15 years and it was never cold-cycled (no start ups just to move the car 15 feet, etc. and it was always driven until the engine got "hot" to limit the unwanted moisture accumulation). That specifically dictated my action to not panic about the situation and go to bed instead of break into a dealership and change my oil that night. Nonetheless, it didn't prevent me from asking Larry the next day who further convinced me that the oil was "barely broken in" under the above scenario and of course I changed the oil a week or so later just to start my ownership "fresh." I'll probably change it annually despite likely putting on only a few thousand miles a year since I won't have a climate-controlled garage, and I'll continue to show the NSX my love with synthetic oil so we can both sleep better at night.
So this is an honest question and not trolling or flame bait. I was an engineer in the auto industry and gearbox industry and enjoyed being a part of quite a bit of bench-testing, dyno testing, and vehicle testing and teardowns of transmissions where I could measure the effects over time on lubricated parts over various test conditions & prototype part iterations. This was for automatic transmissions and Segway scooter gearboxes so I have zero hands-on engine/motor oil test experience here. So I'm not prompting to trap anyone and say "a-ha" you're full of baloney. This is for education. All this talk about synthetic and all this extra money we're going to spend on oil while probably still changing it more frequently than it needs - how has anyone proven to themself that synthetic is better on their particular NSX and worth the upcharge in material cost and how has that dictated their actions? If it just feels good to pay up for it (yes I'm in that camp) just like paying up for expensive wheels or other bling, then that's perfectly fine. Just looking for something more to sink my teeth into, for education...</SPAN>
I've posted in my engine build thread how my engine builder asked what oil i used and remarked that the engine wear and tear was more like 20k~ miles as oppose to 120k~ miles.
Funny thing is that at 20k~ miles is when the engine started to use synthetics.
He now uses Pennzoil Ultra based on what I'm using in my engine.....
Funny thing is that at 20k~ miles is when the engine started to use synthetics.
He now uses Pennzoil Ultra based on what I'm using in my engine.....
So refreshing to see posts like this. Part of why I love Prime. I always hate to drop in on "what is the best oil" discussions, as ANY motor oil that meets Honda's stated weight and API specs will work fine in the NSX and not cause any damage to your engine. After that, it is really about usage and driving conditions. Honda says you can change oil in your NSX up to every 7,500 miles, and this interval includes cheap dino oil, expensive synthetic, and Honda's own synth blend house oil. Honda says this because they tested the engine for thousands and thousands of miles using different oils and the 7,500 spec was deemed safe for all conceivable driving conditions using any approved type of oil.
That said, certain usage and conditions can change this. Let's say you live in Phoenix, drive 5 miles to work, and redline your car almost all the time. This means your NSX is operating most of the time under high heat, high load, short run conditions. This might shorten your change interval. Conversely, let's say you have a nice, long highway commute to work with no traffic and granny shift at 3,000 with maybe some VTEC on the entrance ramp. This might lengthen your change interval, since the stress on the oil is low.
Other than changing your intervals, you can also change your product to make a difference here. Synthetic has the following advantages over dino oil: (1) better flow at cold temperatures; (2) better resistance to thermal breakdown; and (3) much more durable chemical structure (longevity). If any of these issues are important to you based on your usage of the car, then synthetic would be worth the extra money. As for which synthetic is the "best" between the brands, that is really splitting hairs to me. I have seen several NSX engines opened up (including my own), all using different brands of synth and they all looked identical, e.g., pristine. I stick with Mobil 1 since I have observed the excellent results on my own engine internals (both in my NSX and other Honda/Acura cars over the years), but seriously, any good brand name synth will work fine. I am going to try their 0W40 formula instead of 10W30, since I operate my NSX in low temps (below 32F) for several months here in Colorado, and this is what Kaz fills in both his own NSX and his customers' cars in the UK.
3.5 is much better than 3.1. FWIW:
Shell Rotella T6 5W40
CST @ 40*C: 87
CST @ 100*C: 13.19
HTHS: 4.2
Zinc: 1,119
Phosphorous: 969
Magnesium: 1,057
Calcium: 952
Moly: 56
Boron: 31
Mobil 1 0W40
CST @ 40*C: 75
CST @ 100*C: 13.34
HTHS: 3.8
Zinc: 995
Phosphorous: 896
Magnesium: 76
Calcium: 3,182
Moly: 68
Boron: 149
Pennzoil Ultra 5W30
CST @ 40*C: 57.5
CST @ 100*C: 9.46
HTHS: 3.1 (3.5 for Euro)
Zinc: 793
Phosphorous: 673
Magnesium: 13
Calcium: 2,853
Moly: 52
Boron: 206
Motul 300V Power 5W40:
CST @ 40*C: 81.8
CST @ 100*C: 13.6
HTHS: 4.53
Zinc: 941
Phosphorous: 1,062
Magnesium: 1,037
Calcium: 1,258
Moly: 802
Boron: 16
The Pennzoil Ultra (and Euro) have pretty low Zinc and Phosphorous levels compared to the others listed above. However, the Ultra has closer to a 10W30 CST viscosity at 40*C but 80-90 is far from bad, unless you live in sub zero climates. IMO the Shell T6 is a heck of a value and has great wear protection, especially for spirited/track use. M1 0W40 is also pretty good but Motul's the best of all of them with a ton of Moly and a very high HTHS.
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I'm going to assume that Rotella T6 is a group 2 oil and that the advantage of a group 3 (as well as 4 and 5) is that they are comprised of smaller oil molecules which in turn allows for better lubrication in tighter spots (esp. with today's tighter tolerances).
So what's more important (assuming that the above is true)?
More zinc or being able to get into tighter spaces?
A lot of aftermarket additives use zinc and phosphorus for extra protection. The problem is, when you overload an oil with this type of additive, your oxidation levels tend to increase, causing an attack on the base oil, which in turn can cause an increase of viscosity (thicken the oil). This is why it is important not to play home chemist and blend in aftermarket additives that are not designed to be in the oil to start with.
ZDDP burns to an ash, and metallic ash is bad.
There are quite a few chemicals that do just a good a job as ZDDP, some even better, and if you combine them with ZDDP levels that generate a 500ppm zinc level, the result is even greater.
The thing about ZDDP is it does a very good job protecting metal from wear, and its dirt cheap, so its the preferred anti-wear agent. the best oils are the ones that can provide very low wear rates before the additive pack is even introduced, however they tend to be expensive.
So what's more important (assuming that the above is true)?
More zinc or being able to get into tighter spaces?
A lot of aftermarket additives use zinc and phosphorus for extra protection. The problem is, when you overload an oil with this type of additive, your oxidation levels tend to increase, causing an attack on the base oil, which in turn can cause an increase of viscosity (thicken the oil). This is why it is important not to play home chemist and blend in aftermarket additives that are not designed to be in the oil to start with.
ZDDP burns to an ash, and metallic ash is bad.
There are quite a few chemicals that do just a good a job as ZDDP, some even better, and if you combine them with ZDDP levels that generate a 500ppm zinc level, the result is even greater.
The thing about ZDDP is it does a very good job protecting metal from wear, and its dirt cheap, so its the preferred anti-wear agent. the best oils are the ones that can provide very low wear rates before the additive pack is even introduced, however they tend to be expensive.
If you take advantage of Pennzoil's rebate promotion for its full synthetic Platinum motor oil, there is NO extra money involved in using synthetic. $14.97 for a five-quart jug of synthetic Pennzoil Platinum is about what you would normally pay for major-brand conventional oil. So you get all the benefits of synthetic without the only significant downside (its otherwise higher cost).
The current promotion goes through the end of this month, and they have run similar promotions every spring and fall for the past several years.
If you ask any oil company, all of them would cringe at the thought of ZDDP additives (which do not mix and stay in suspension in the oil) or any type of additive to their oil.
I'm not an oil chemist, and a lot will be speculation, but T6 has a good HTHS and additive package from anti-wear to dispersants/detergents and has a lot of positive results in many high performance car applications. I've had a lot of success with it and continue to use it.
From another site:
Shell Rotella T6 is a group III product; severely hydro processed oil. It's got quite a bit of VII to get such a broad grade range. I do know that it performs quite well, typically putting forth stellar UOAs. I'm not confident whether it has PAO in it or not; but I don't really know that it matters, either. I guess knowing the "inputs" of an oil makes for interesting chatter, but the "results" are MUCH more telling of a product's capability. Would you rather know the starting roster of a base-ball team, or the final score?
It's not "perfect", but no oil is. It's a good fit for a wide variety of applications and has a good performance/dollar ratio. It is primarily thought of as group III.
I've also read about some foaming issues with Pennzoil Ultra in Ferraris.
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I like to learn about the foaming issues......
So what you are saying is the 5w40 would be better for tracked cars than the 5w30 or even 0w40 if so it would just come down to what brand you thought was best between Shell and Motul and that would just be opinion as no one would really know for sure.
Otherwise any of the oils above would be more than adequate
Otherwise any of the oils above would be more than adequate
The higher viscosity offers better protection but HTHS and the additive packages are also very important. For FI cars and tracked cars, going heavier than a 30W is probably a good idea. Each brand is not the same and each product line within the same brand has varying degrees of additives and characteristics. You could (and I am) spend hours and hours researching different oils and their additives/viscosities through Used Oil Analysis' from companies like Blackstone.
There are a lot of car forums with threads where people post their Blackstone reports. I think we should have one for the NSX.
I don't see why we couldn't. Just cross off the names and VINs to keep personal data out of it. It could be quite a resource: lots of independent data and dates.
I could run a regression analysis to determine any significant relationships and present to the community. Could be interesting.
Thanks BATMANs. Type of stuff what I was looking for. To go a step further, if you don't mind: what's your current oil change schedule and how would it be any different if you used dino oil? What's your driving style - lots or moderate amounts of high revving higher stress track time type driving? This type of stuff is just interesting to me especially since I went thru a little self-analysis myself when thinking about my oil change situation - I'll mention more below.
Thanks Ken! I always knew I could swap oil brands w/o issue, even switching back & forth between dino & synthetic, but I always assumed I'd stay with Mobil 1 just because. So I didn't internalize your mentioning this earlier in this thread. Now I'll be on the lookout for that deal because hey, why not save $12-25 annually. Makes every 3rd oil change almost free even if I'm likely to change oil only once or twice a year.
First thing I did though when I realized the same synthetic oil had been in my NSX for at least 5 years and only a few thousand miles was consult the owner's manual. I was surprised by a few things: first to see the 7,500 miles/6 months recommendation - I hadn't before seen a change interval for so many miles with only around 5 qts of oil. I think my BMW had 6 or 7 qt change volume, even if the computer took me well over 15k miles for its second oil change (wow). Next, the 6 month max interval in the NSX manual alarmed me a little compared to the 5 years age of my oil... A quick look online to various Mobil 1 & other synthetic mfg'r FAQ pages suggested a shelf life of around 5 years max at Mobil (link) but then Valvoline vaguely suggests no expiration date (link). Again the main thing that prevented me from getting overly alarmed was realizing it had at least been kept in a temp/humidity controlled garage and never driven for short distances or cold cycled. Next I was surprised to see no recommendations for Honda-specific oil, see screen shots. Also was surprised to see zero mention of "spirited driving" under the definitions of "Severe Driving Conditions" for such a purpose-built car. (Honda lawyers and warranty analysts at work?). Was entertaining to see them mention that additives will only increase maintenance costs...
Here are some owner's manual screenshots if they're of interest to anyone.
Thanks Honcho, especially for your post. Was full of lots of interesting tidbits. Reading your post and reviewing a few mfg'r FAQ pages helped refine how I'll characterize "longer change intervals" now. I'll no longer simplify to myself that going to synthetic arbitrarily lets one extend change intervals vs. dino oil, but it does make sense that using synthetic over certain operating conditions can give you confidence that your synthetic oil is likely holding up longer performance-wise vs. conventional oil. For my planned driving style (occasional but not frequent high-performance driving, likely never any inclement/freezing conditions or extreme high ambient temperature runs or short runs & cold cycling), dino oil would probably suffice perfectly. But Ken's Consumer Reports lesson is just what I need to stick to synthetic w/zero reservation...
And yeah, Prime is pretty great. Has helped me immensely with my NSX find & upkeep & entertainment. Well worth a little annual support/donation (link for anyone here who might not know about that).
I change my oil every 10k miles for both the S-10 and the NSX. The GTO has this automatic notification that gauges oil change based on how much I romp on it, etc. So far the oil analysis for the GTO is pretty much right on par with when it tells me to change it.
I drive my NSX very spirited since I spent $30k for the engine rebuilt, clutch and SOS SC - so I better be using it.
I don't track my cars....
Honestly, based on your stated usage, I think a 7,500 "OEM" interval with a good 10W30 synth would be great for you. If you used dino, I'd change at 3,000.
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