NSX is out. HSC will come...next year...

[supra2nv]

does this mean I should postpone buying the '02 NSX?

 

[NeoNSX]

Even if the HSC is released with 300HP, seriously, how many of you would leave it at 300HP? Only three of you. The rest would be buying superchargers and Factor X kits anyway.

This is good news about the HSC though.

 

[MarkB]

..how many of you would leave it at 300HP?...

Neo,

At 300, you're probably right; however, at 400 I think many would be satisfied. I know I would.:biggrin:

 

[foxy-abby]

Honda definitely has something up their sleeve (assuming we really are getting the HSC). There is no way they have been jerking us around for the past 2 years (will they produce it or not), just to introduce a STi, Evo competitor. And they aren't interested in a C6 comparison. If either of these are true, I'm going to be pissed. The NSX was a madman in '91, and I think we will be able to say the same regarding the HSC in '06-'07. Honda doesn't have branding power like Ferrari, but after the NSX they do have credibility, and I doubt they are going to throw that away. It'll be a Ferrari competitor with slightly lower performance numbers, at half the price (and without $1k oil changes). Can't wait.
Jesse

 

[AutoVation]

They must be currently tooling up the HSC line in Suzuka. Two weeks ago, I was told I could not visit the Suzuka facility to see production of the NSX because Honda was tooling up something that I wasn't supposed to see! :biggrin:

 

[Johnny@JETZ]

I still keep hearing people at the dealership talking about Honda developing a V8. They say it is still unconfirmed so that makes it a rumor still, but when you think about the direction Honda is going and all the other rumors it makes possible sense. The Ridgeling truck will only survive for a year or two with a V6. Sooner or later they will need a V8 for that truck. Dealerships rumors is that the V8 in developement will go into the Honda/Acura SUV and trucks like the Ridgeline, MDX and such.

I'm with u chris :smile:

 

[AutoVation]

I'm with u chris :smile:

This week I should have a definitive answer on if it is a V6 or V8. Hopefully some rough hp numbers also.

 

[drmanny3]

I would agree with some of the previous posts that Honda is not stupid. They understand automobiles and what is important. They are unique in that they march to the beat of a different drummer. I have no doubt that what ever they introduce will be competitive. If you look at the current Porsche line their 911 997 s is very fast 0-60 in about 4.4 seconds at about 3130lbs. It also costs about $95 large with just a few goodies included. Their hp rating is not that high I think abut 355 hp with about 295 lbs of torque out of a 3.8liter engine. I know as a fact that Honda will at least equal that car in terms of performance. But I also expect that the new car is going to fetch at least $90 to $110 large. To expect someone to build a car that is competition against the F4xx at half price is smoking some bad weed. We say a lot on this forum and brag a bit as well. The proof will be how many can pony up the bucks to buy what ever Honda comes out with. At the 100 large you are talking about a small segment of the market. I agree with the fellow from Florida in that the NSX is built to drive and keep on ticking. I expect no less from their new car. Numbers are not what is important, in the end it is the whole package and performance. How many of you are lined up to buy the 500 hp Corvette that is very fast and has the numbers to boot. Forget the fact that it is a pushrod engine and fit and finish are subpar. My pecker is just not small enough to want that car.

Manny

Manny

 

[ANYTIME]

I would agree with some of the previous posts that Honda is not stupid. They understand automobiles and what is important. They are unique in that they march to the beat of a different drummer. I have no doubt that what ever they introduce will be competitive. If you look at the current Porsche line their 911 997 s is very fast 0-60 in about 4.4 seconds at about 3130lbs. It also costs about $95 large with just a few goodies included. Their hp rating is not that high I think abut 355 hp with about 295 lbs of torque out of a 3.8liter engine. I know as a fact that Honda will at least equal that car in terms of performance. But I also expect that the new car is going to fetch at least $90 to $110 large. To expect someone to build a car that is competition against the F4xx at half price is smoking some bad weed. We say a lot on this forum and brag a bit as well. The proof will be how many can pony up the bucks to buy what ever Honda comes out with. At the 100 large you are talking about a small segment of the market. I agree with the fellow from Florida in that the NSX is built to drive and keep on ticking. I expect no less from their new car. Numbers are not what is important, in the end it is the whole package and performance. How many of you are lined up to buy the 500 hp Corvette that is very fast and has the numbers to boot. Forget the fact that it is a pushrod engine and fit and finish are subpar. My pecker is just not small enough to want that car.

Manny

Manny

I beg to differ. Pick up any of the current mags and you'll see; "Horsepower Wars" , 200MPH Club, Acceleration Tests, 500HP, etc.

Honda needs to step up or they will be laughed at and sales will suffer. Just like it is today, with no updates other than cosmetic. I know they want a well rounded car, but come on, look at what Chevy did with the vette! If this was the new NSX, everyone would be happy as clams! Any mag has all the stats on cars and the NSX is not even being updated or even tested anymore. Last test was 2002. What gives? People are flooded with HP, 0-60, 1/4 mile times and today, which is what sells cars. Yes, the NSX does well on certain tracks, but the typicall driver doesn't go to the track much and most of the time it is mostly comuter style miles and or pleasure miles.

 

[AutoVation]

I think the HSC will have to have a min. 350 hp (maybe 400hp by the time it comes out) to avoid falling into the "not even considered" category. However, what sold me on an NSX is the DRIVING EXPERIENCE. This is why Ferrari does so well even though other cars have more performance and bigger hp numbers. If the HSC comes out with 350hp and gets 50+mpg while still providing a superior driving experience, it will have a lot of buyers. It would also improve Honda's image as an efficient engine builder/designer. Remember, the first NSX paved the way for VTEC. What will the HSC pave the way for?

 

[gheba_nsx]

If you look at the current Porsche line their 911 997 s is very fast 0-60 in about 4.4 seconds at about 3130lbs. It also costs about $95 large with just a few goodies included. Their hp rating is not that high I think abut 355 hp with about 295 lbs of torque out of a 3.8liter engine. I know as a fact that Honda will at least equal that car in terms of performance. But I also expect that the new car is going to fetch at least $90 to $110 large.

So, Honda should at least equal the Porsche (euqal is good then...) and should fetch the same price of the Porsche (or more).

Then why would the "Honda" sell in this case?!

For 100k$ the new NSX should smash the 997. And even in that case it would still not sell well... just my opinon of course.

In 1991 we were there and look what happened then. IMO to sell the NSX should not cost more than 75k, period.

 

[goldNSX]

There was a new article in the NZZ (Neue Zürcher Zeitung) today which says:

In september 2005 the production will be off. 1663 unit where sold in Europe, 264 in Switzerland. The following car will be nearer to the Porsche 911 or Ferrari F430 as far as power is concerned but the earliest time to buy it will be in two years.

Good news for people who like to invest in upgrades.

Greetings,
Thomas

 

[whiteNSXs]

.........I have no doubt that what ever they introduce will be competitive......... If you look at the current Porsche line their 911 997 s is very fast 0-60 in about 4.4 seconds at about 3130lbs. It also costs about $95 large with just a few goodies included. Their hp rating is not that high I think abut 355 hp with about 295 lbs of torque out of a 3.8liter engine. I know as a fact that Honda will at least equal that car in terms of performance. But I also expect that the new car is going to fetch at least $90 to $110 large............ To expect someone to build a car that is competition against the F4xx at half price is smoking some bad weed. We say a lot on this forum and brag a bit as well........... The proof will be how many can pony up the bucks to buy what ever Honda comes out with. At the 100 large you are talking about a small segment of the market.........
Manny

Manny

I have to disagree, Manny.
The performance cars from Honda have not been very competitive lately in the market place so they are hacked.
If the new car is equal to th 997 Carrera S, but with a HIGHER price tag as you predict, then I am sure it will not be competitive. Porsche will always have that cachet that Honda does not enjoy. To come out with a new car to challenge Porsche's throne, it'd better be better and cheaper. We are NOT the majority of the customers that Honda is aiming at if they want to succeed. The NSX owners are just a small batch of potential customers. Back in 1991, I believed the NSX was $60k and it was better and cheaper than the Porsche so the sales was very successful. By 1994, the NSX sales pretty much dried up with the price of $75k.
Ferrari will always be ridiculously expensive and will always have people lining up buying them. Being the Louis Vuitton of the car world, Ferrari's status is what Honda does not have. What Honda has is the tremendous R&D resources and the big part bins shared with the econoboxes. That means that Honda CAN build a F4xx competitor for much much less. If even Nissan can build the 350z with 300hp at $32k, imagine what they can do for $80-90K. And I think Honda is a more capable company than Nissan.
We on Prime, being diehard fans of the NSX, have tasted such asskicking products from Honda and are ready for more. But for the rest of the public to which the new car is aiming at, the new car will be nothing but a pile of pictures and numbers in a magazine. If the numbers are not impressive enough, it will not sell, period.
You are correct that at $100k, the segment of the market is VERY small. And Honda is not a stupid company. So let say your prediction is correct. The HSC is $100k, then how many HSC will Honda need to sell to break even and how many will they sell? So among these people who can spend $100k, the choices of their cars are Porsches, Porsches, Porsches, used Ferraris, AMGs, and a few others. So at a hundred grand, being the new kid on the block, the HSC better has some SIGNIFICANT performance advantages over these extremely potent Porsches in order to win that sale. So now, if the HSC only has 300hp at $100k, the public will ROFLTAO. Noble is around $100k and it can beat the crap out of the F430. You don't think Honda could build a Noble if they want to with its part bins and resources? And Noble is only some small kit car company.
Everything is speculation now. The price of the HSC will depends on what segment it wants to play in.
Regards,
Steve

 

[awsomr1]

If Ford GT can sell at $140K+ than the next Gen. NSX can sell also, providing it will kick the GT around for fun.

JMHO

 

[White92]

Isn't the GT a limited production car though? That way, they can charge the higher price because there aren't that many of them being built.

 

[gheba_nsx]

I have to disagree, Manny.
The performance cars from Honda have not been very competitive lately in the market place so they are hacked.
If the new car is equal to th 997 Carrera S, but with a HIGHER price tag as you predict, then I am sure it will not be competitive. Porsche will always have that cachet that Honda does not enjoy. To come out with a new car to challenge Porsche's throne, it'd better be better and cheaper. We are NOT the majority of the customers that Honda is aiming at if they want to succeed. The NSX owners are just a small batch of potential customers. Back in 1991, I believed the NSX was $60k and it was better and cheaper than the Porsche so the sales was very successful...

Exactely my thoughts and what i wanted to write in my post here above if i was not that lazy... :biggrin:

Steve is really my spokesman! :tongue: :wink:

 

[awsomr1]

Isn't the GT a limited production car though? That way, they can charge the higher price because there aren't that many of them being built.

Well yes, but at less than 300 car a year (current NSX). That is pretty limited in my book too. :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

 

[gheba_nsx]

Isn't the GT a limited production car though? That way, they can charge the higher price because there aren't that many of them being built.

The GT has a mystique, heritage (they beated the Ferrari constantly in the 60s on the race track, and they really made Enzo going almost mad ) and a nostalgia effect to the right rich "kids" that the NSX does not have.

That combined with a high price tag and the low production number has proved to work pretty well on the hi-end segment for all luxury items.

The NSX should be "mass" produced in a Viper way... as the Viper is the best of the class / value in the crazy power segment, the NSX should be the best buy in the exotic/semi-track car segment (it should really beat the 997 and be very close or slightly better than GT3, F430, ...). This if the price is 90k-95k.

The best way for sales (and also for us future owners IMO) would be to offer something similar in perfromance to the 997 (just a little better ), with also better looking hp numbers, more exotic looking, more luxurious, more everything for 75k all included. It would probably sell but not enough to see them everywhere and it would have to right price to buy one in three year, at least for me.

 

[MoreRPMs]

The pessimist in me believes that Honda has nothing up its sleeve. This is the same company that comes out with a "brand new" luxury car...same chassis as another sub-$20k car in its lineup, same engine (stroked, bored, whatever you want to call it, it's still the same block). All other Japanese competitors in that class offer a V8. Honda says we are a "green" company; funny thing, the fuel mileage in this "high-tech" luxury car sucks as bad as those other V8s. Except, those others offer something Americans crave...torque. And lots more everywhere in the rpm range. Example 2: five and a half years ago Honda brings out a 120 hp/liter stratospheric redline, race-derived engine. Only problem is it doesn't quite have 2000 CCs of displacement, along with it a measly 240 hp, and more importantly, no torque, and it has to move a 2800+ pound steel body off the line. Then, instead of advancing technology, they "update" this same car for '04 with more CCs, slightly more torque, but with that, comes no increase in horsepower. And, that signature sky-high redline is lowered to where it can't even stand out against a $21k Acura econobox. So where does this car now standout versus its competitors?
Last year, the president of Honda said the HSC was being scrapped because of several factors. Could it be that someone finally smacked the high level executives over the head with a brick, and they came to their senses knowing that the world would not buy a $70k super sports car with a laughable 300hp?
For at least a decade, Honda has continually disappointed NSX owners and fans alike; leading them on to think that the car will be updated/improved. A 20 hp bump over 8 years ago, flush headlights, and a new rear valance hardly qualify.
The optimist in me, however, wonders why they're involved in the most expensive form of motorsport. Afterall, toward the tail-end of their run in the late 80s, the NSX was introduced. And enthusiasts of the company could rejoice with them. One would think that logically, they don't race 19,000 rpm engines to promote Civics and Accords. Because, Lord knows, 99.99% of buyers of these cars could care less about how they did versus Ferrari or Renault on 18 Sunday afternoons of the year.
Bottom line is they should get their asses in gear and give the fans a "no excuses" world-beating, once again standard-setting sports car they can be proud of.

 

[NetViper]

300 HP HSC for 55K, good idea - depending on weight.

300 HP HSC for 90K, laughable.

400 HP HSC for 80K, maybe just right.

600 HP HSC, priceless. :biggrin:

 

[effer]

Believe in Honda

Back in 1990, the NSX was 270 hp and the entry level Ferrari was "officially" 300 hp; thus having 90% of its power.

Since the NSX was lighter than the Ferrari, conceding around 30 ponies was considered as negligible... ( and I am not talking about handling, reliability, comfort, etc. !!! )

In fact the power to weight ratio between these cars were within a mere 9% difference.

If Honda wants to do the same achievement today, only a tad over 400 hp would be necessary in a 3000 lbs package assuming 3197 lbs for the F 430 !

And 400 hp from a V6 3L would mean 133,33 hp/L, and only a very conservative 114,3 hp/L from 3,5L.

Nothing out of reach by today standards...

IOW I'd bet nothing less than 400 ponies for this next Honda supercar...


WHAT I WOULD DO IF I WAS HONDA CEO

Even though BAR Honda finished in second position last year behind Ferrari in F1, which is by itself a very respectable result, I wouldn't be happy at all and since I don't think we will beat them this season ( even with two fuel reservoir!!! ), why not extending this battle on the road car ground, so the best way to pissed them off would be to launch a true Ferrari slaughter just to make them embarrassed and ashamed:

95K$ HSC at 1275 kg ( around 2800 lbs ) with V8 4L @ 580 hp ( 145 hp/L )
Sorry, I am still thinking about something like the Mugen V8 4L...

Honestly, what would you prefer? Winning the F1 championship or winning all the way the road car war?

Honda has certainly not the Ferrari prestige but who could refuse such a fabulous package?

Almost an Enzo killer at cheaper cost than the F 430!!!

I know, I am dreaming but as I previously mentioned, on the good and realistic side, Honda's new car will produce at least 400 hp...


More than 400 hp, remember...

 

[whiteNSXs]

Re: Believe in Honda

95K$ HSC at 1275 kg ( around 2800 lbs ) with V8 4L @ 580 hp ( 145 hp/L )
Sorry, I am still thinking about something like the Mugen V8 4L...

Honestly, what would you prefer? Winning the F1 championship or winning all the way the road car war?

Honda has certainly not the Ferrari prestige but who could refuse such a fabulous package?

Almost an Enzo killer at cheaper cost than the F 430!!!

I know, I am dreaming but as I previously mentioned, on the good and realistic side, Honda's new car will produce at least 400 hp...


More than 400 hp, remember...

You are scaring me. This reminds me of what Fukui once said, ".... highest performance in the industry. No rival exists!!!!!" Does Fukui mean no rival, PERIOD or no rival at a certain price range? I surely hope is the latter. I know whatever price range that they want to compete in, the HSC will blow everyone away at that range. I hope it is the sub $100k range so that I can start saving for a HSC fund now. If Honda wants to challenge the Enzo, I know they surely can, but I probably will not be able to buy. But your example of the Mugen V8 sounds quite doable at that price.
Thanks,
Steve

 

[NetViper]

Re: Believe in Honda

But your example of the Mugen V8 sounds quite doable at that price.

I concur. That is what should be in the next NSX. For $100K, that would be excellent. I should be able to afford a used one in 6 years. :biggrin:

 

[MJK]

Don;t get me wrong, I would LOVE to see a Honda V8, but I think the odds of it happening are pretty slim. Tell me which one of these makes more sense for Honda to develop a V8 for:

New Ridgeline pickup - IMO, needs it to compete with Toyota, Nissan, etc.
New RL luxury - IMO, needs it to be competitive with Lexus, BMW.
New HSC / NSX - We'd all love it, sports cars do not seem Honda's priority.

IMO, they've show that they can out engineer any company with the NSX. They've shown that a V8 is not coming with the above and the HSC. I think that Honda prides itself on doing things differently than any other manufacturer - and while arguably more advanced technology it is not what the market is willing to accept. Look at the most recent 6mt CL. The quotes before it came out remind me of where we are now - its going to cream the 3 series, IS300, and others to be the best performing, best value, best built sport coupe around. Was it wonderful? Sure. Did the market care, no because that is CLEARLY a RWD segment. Instead of accepting that, Honda goes off on some technologically advanced kick to rid a FWD 260hp CL of torque steer. It worked well, but nobody cared. If it had been RWD, I would probably own one. I don't - I bought a RWD car.

The HSC talk reminds me of this all over again. 'It is going to be unlike no other sport car the work has ever seen' to me strikes images of some 90k car that almost keeps up with a 911 while running on peanut butter and solar cells. Nice, but I'll take the Porsche.

The talent is still there, the passion is still there, but the direction at Honda no longer seems to be "An Eternal Sportsmind for You."

I am alone with this?

 

[docjohn]

Why or how is the German auto press more informed or enlightened than ours?As to the hsc I like the overall shape and proportion,and looks more like it maybe "the one".I, like morpheus, also believe as I always have that there will be two engine choices,6 and 8.I also believe that the cause of the delay or prolonged rollout for this car is not engine related but transmission.I believe that Honda wants to do a true paddle automanual and do it inhouse,not relying on subcontracters like ricardo.Just my wacko thoughts.I still believe we will see hsczilla :tongue: