Picking the Right FI System

[powerslave7]

$15000

thats how much it will cost me to have a custom built rotrex system on my nsx, drive in drive out.

i would only consider it if it were substantially better than the sos system or a turbo

 

[ozone]

Go with the Angus turbo kit. You won't be disappointed. Give me a shout and I will take you for a ride. :biggrin: I have ridden in the Comptech car and you can't even compare these two as far as performance. For a fact though the Comptech seems to be very reliable, haven't had or driving my turbo nsx that much yet. Frank

What kind of numbers are you putting down? What made you choose Angus over SC's or Lovefab?

 

[swerve2007]

$15000

thats how much it will cost me to have a custom built rotrex system on my nsx, drive in drive out.

i would only consider it if it were substantially better than the sos system or a turbo

rotrex will only make sense if you do it yourself since there is no system developed yet. for 15k you are making someone else money so might as well go with a proven setup.

 

[peiserg]

i simply pointed out the features of rotrex- not mentioning the price which would definitely be lower for the whole system (i believe the compressor itself is $2-3k) based on simplicity of installation not requiring custom manifolds etc. i never argued against local support so i am at loss why you are quoting me.
btw, rotrex has been in use for over 5 years now and it is bulletproof.

the comment wasn't really meant for you specifically.. just as a generalization... since you brought up the rotrex, I brought up local support.

I still think the bbsc is a great system... but as pointed out more moving parts to break/wear out. Support is hard to come by from the designer, unless you are local.

But bang for the buck.. sheesh. $3k or so nets you a used bbsc. I guess we have to assume the parts all work of course. if $3k can get a new rotrex vs. used bbsc... i'd guess the "local" support would be about equivalent, so i'd of course opt for a new one.

 

[angus]

What kind of numbers are you putting down? What made you choose Angus over SC's or Lovefab?

Since Frank is offering a test drive , you should take him up on it and see what you think . As well , check out the build quality and see how you like it.

 

[Frank Spano]

I choose Wils kit, due to the fact that he would ship the kit and I would not have to send my car out of state to have the kit installed and tuned. The qaulity of the kit is great too. I would say I probably spent around $8,000-$9,000. Due to the fact of the air/water intercooler, gauges, tuning, computer, and other upgrades which are probably over kill but I want my car to be as bullet proof as possible without touching the internals in the engine. Give me a shout if you want to see the car and go for a ride. You will be sold.:biggrin: Frank

 

[swerve2007]

But bang for the buck.. sheesh. $3k or so nets you a used bbsc. I guess we have to assume the parts all work of course. if $3k can get a new rotrex vs. used bbsc... i'd guess the "local" support would be about equivalent, so i'd of course opt for a new one.

just to clarify- for $2-3k you get the rotrex compressor ONLY, not the full kit, so it will be more expensive than a used bbsc.

 

[03S2K]

What kind of numbers are you putting down? What made you choose Angus over SC's or Lovefab?

Since Frank is offering a test drive , you should take him up on it and see what you think . As well , check out the build quality and see how you like it.

OZONE, you should listen to wil/frank and take a ride in that thing. If it was me and I lived near you guys Id be sleeping in his front yard waiting for that ride :biggrin: you know I started that thread on M3forums and I'm realling leaning towards dumping the M3 and getting into a 2002-2003 NSX, too bad I cant have both. If you take a ride in that monster shoot me a PM M3forums and let me know what your thoughts are. (NSXprime is blocked at my job,so I gotta wait till I get home to post)

Will my buddy danny has been talking to you about your kit. He has been telling me what the details are and he almost has me convinced to get an NSX and use your kit opposing to keeping my M3 and dropping insane money to turbo it. Even though the HPF turbo M3 is proven to make a lot more power, my bud danny is telling me the weight difference will play a huge role. He also tells me your kit is capable of around 700rwhp (of course with a built motor) If I do get an NSX I would have to get use to driving it so I think your kit with methanol at about 500 rwhp will be fine till I learn the car and can get use to driving it. At that point I guess I will go and build the motor and shoot for 700-800 rwhp. Let me know what you think. Thanks in advnace, and thanks for an awesome product at an affordable price. I drove my friends NSX and loved every single thing about it. So I may be looking into this soon.

Sam

 

[lightguy]

^
400HP is the "accepted" limit on stock internals and clutch.
Dont go in expecting too much.

 

[03S2K]

^
400HP is the "accepted" limit on stock internals and clutch.
Dont go in expecting too much.

I heard the 02+ has a different/stronger headgasket (stainless steel) and the stock motor can hold about 500 rwhp. the older model NSX's hold 400rwhp.

Are the OEM pistons, forged from factory on the nsx ? On my old 2003 S2k I used a stainless steel headgasket to drop compression and since the pistons where forged from factory I ran 14psi and made a bit over 460 rwhp with head work from Alaniz technologies, I left the block alone. I also used methanol injection. Let me know what you think. Thanks

Sam

 

[stuntman]

If I do get an NSX I would have to get use to driving it so I think your kit with methanol at about 500 rwhp will be fine till I learn the car and can get use to driving it. At that point I guess I will go and build the motor and shoot for 700-800 rwhp. Let me know what you think. Thanks in advnace, and thanks for an awesome product at an affordable price. I drove my friends NSX and loved every single thing about it. So I may be looking into this soon.

Sam

Some pretty big aspirations you have there... Keep in mind there's a reason you don't see more than a handful of 7-800whp NSXs even on the street, that run.

Do your homework rather than reading a few posts, become infatuated with the dream, and end up not being where you thought you would be atall. I've been there and trust me it pays off to do your HW up front.

Billy

 

[03S2K]

Some pretty big aspirations you have there... Keep in mind there's a reason you don't see more than a handful of 7-800whp NSXs even on the street, that run.

Do your homework rather than reading a few posts, become infatuated with the dream, and end up not being where you thought you would be atall. I've been there and trust me it pays off to do your HW up front.

Billy

billy, thanks for the info. I'm doing my home work as we speak. I have only read on a couple NSX's with 700+ rwhp. I also was reading up on the lovefab kit and how their car made 1000 + rwhp (which is over kill and insane). but let me ask you, what are your thoughts on a stock block with a turbo kit and methanol ? whats the most you'd boost on it and how much power do you think it is capable of ? As well as with a build block, lowered compression-you dont think the car will make 700+ rwhp on about 22psi ? Thanks

Sam

 

[swerve2007]

sure it will, for how long?

 

[03S2K]

sure it will, for how long?

I ran the s2k hard for about 7 months, but I mean HARD I was racing every other day, and getting on it to and from work every day. I ran 14psi all the time and the only issue I had was a solenoid plug connector near the turbo started melting Once I took the head off the car to sell it, the pistons showed no signs of stress nor did the rods. Im sure if I have gone more than 500rwhp EVENTUALLY the rods would have given up.

As far as the nsx I was thinking Id probably go 450-480rwhp on a stock 3.2 and then build the block later on. I really want to get the nsx but if its too complicated to reach 700rwhp I think Id have to go with the HPF turbo kit for my M3 which has been proven to be reliable and reaches about 690rwhp. I know I have to do some homework on the nsx and I will, solely because Im leaning more towards the nsx and really hope I can make it work.

 

[swerve2007]

anything is possible but the cost of failure on the nsx is very high. you can build 3 s2000 engines to 1 nsx. nsx is not a 1/4 mile car and you will spend a lot of money and effort to discover that.

 

[03S2K]

anything is possible but the cost of failure on the nsx is very high. you can build 3 s2000 engines to 1 nsx. nsx is not a 1/4 mile car and you will spend a lot of money and effort to discover that.

I'll definately think about this in making my decision on keeping my M3 or getting the nsx. Thanks for the info

 

[ozone]

I would say I probably spent around $8,000-$9,000. Due to the fact of the air/water intercooler, gauges, tuning, computer, and other upgrades which are probably over kill but I want my car to be as bullet proof as possible without touching the internals in the engine. Give me a shout if you want to see the car and go for a ride. You will be sold.:biggrin: Frank

Frank, thanks for the offer. Unfortunately, I live about 5+ hours from the NYC area otherwise I would love to take a ride. Sounds like a solid product and definitely in consideration.

OZONE, you should listen to wil/frank and take a ride in that thing. If it was me and I lived near you guys Id be sleeping in his front yard waiting for that ride :biggrin: you know I started that thread on M3forums and I'm realling leaning towards dumping the M3 and getting into a 2002-2003 NSX, too bad I cant have both. If you take a ride in that monster shoot me a PM M3forums and let me know what your thoughts are. (NSXprime is blocked at my job,so I gotta wait till I get home to post)

If I do get an NSX I would have to get use to driving it so I think your kit with methanol at about 500 rwhp will be fine till I learn the car and can get use to driving it. At that point I guess I will go and build the motor and shoot for 700-800 rwhp. Let me know what you think. Sam

Sam, basically you have to decide what is the most important factor in moving to an NSX. I personally got the NSX because I loved the combination of style, handling, reliability, and decent power. Not great power, but in my mind I thought I would boost it after awhile. Prioritize your needs--is it simply power? Do you like the other features about the NSX enough that would override you being slower than HPF 2.5?

In the end, there will ALWAYS be a faster car. And to achieve speed, the cheapest and easiest way is American muscle. The NSX and M3 add flair if you can get them to go fast, but neither are drag cars. I personally love both cars (and thats why I own both), and enjoy them for what they are. Nothing wrong with trying to make them faster, we all do. But what is more important--finding the right overall car or being a car length or 2 ahead of the guy next to you?

Personally, I think you'll love the NSX experience. But you may be disappointed if you are looking for pure, straight line performance. It's everything else that makes the NSX unique and great. If HPF is going to cost you $30K, I bet you could throw about $10K more and get a ready built turbo NSX and have both.

 

[lightguy]

03S2K;
If I needed 500 to 600 HP I would go with a 996TT with X-50 option.
Internals are supposed to be good for 700HP with a clutch. All fairly "cheaply".
This is a proven system engineered by Porsche to be turbo'd.
Pushing past their parameters but still feasible.

See if you can find a 400 HP turbo NSX to experience. That may do it for you.
It was not really designed to be a quarter mile warrior.

 

[swerve2007]

why don't you just buy a supra?

 

[ENSSEX]

take that CTSC and use it has a boat anchor...call Angus 1800 go power

 

[AR]

take that CTSC and use it has a boat anchor...call Angus 1800 go power

I will echo what it says above regarding Wil's kit, however those of us who need to pass emissions are better off with systems such as the CTSC,SOS superchargers.

 

[angus]

Hey folks , I meant to post this here so I am moving it here myself after being reprimanded elsewhere :frown: - anyways here goes:

I would like to mention some reasons why I like my design:

- It keeps extra heat out of the engine bay versus designs that place the turbo higher in the engine bay or above the tranny.

- It allows use of multiple brands of headers - Including OEM NA2 headers which IMO cannot be beat for reliability / resistance to cracking etc.

- The charge piping is not excessively long compared to many OEM turbo applications or even a turbo civic or integra.

- I have tried to keep the design as simple as possible to minimize problems , over many years I have observed that this is very often overlooked.

- My kit maintains the HIGHEST level of quality and craftsmanship at a very reasonable price , I am always available to help , and each kit is made to order in a timely fashion , hand crafted with pride.

On the topic of intercooling ,

I am of the opinion that the air/liquid intercooler is overkill for 90% of people , it adds a great deal of unnecessary complexity and more components (hoses) and pump / wiring etc. to fail. If you need to make more power I CAN supply an air / liquid intercooler.

On the topic of ceramic coating , I could easily provide ceramic coating if the customer requests it although many have noted that this would be a crime since it would hide the natural beauty of the materials and precision welding .

***It will however keep the heat down so it can never hurt ***

CERAMIC COATING KEEPS HEAT INSIDE THE PIPING THIS IS WELL KNOWN

I am NOT trying to say my product is the best for everyone ,I am also not trying to say it is better than others ( I will let the performance / dyno #'s speak for themselves) it comes down to personal choice and I am simply providing another product for people to choose from.

Thanks,
Wil

 

[lightguy]

Thought I'd bump this thread a bit.
There are a lot of people who say Supercharging is the more reliable set up over turbo. I've seen this mentioned time and time again.
Following the FI forum for quite some time, perhaps too long, and based on my experience I would say the exact opposite.
I see many more posts on problems with SC systems over TC systems. Agreed to this point there are more SC systems out there but even with the newly installed systems there are bugs that pop up here and there with SC's.
I can remember exactly 2 topics with TC systems. And one was self inflicted by going outside the proven design.
Turbos are also more efficient as they use "waste" energy in the form of exhaust heat to power them.
Superchargers by their very nature are driven by engine horsepower. A measurable and significant loss.
At the very same PSI induction pressure a turbo will typically (always?) give more HP because of less parasitic loss over a turbo.
Turbocharged HP can be variable in that a turbos wastegate or BOV can be manipulated if need be to increase boost. With a SC you need to change the drive ratios. Or it would have been artificially overdriven (wasteful) in the first place then preassure relieved to get to the rated HP.

Formula One introduced a FI rule when Turbo/Super charging was allowed and thus allowed a reduced engine displacement by one half. 1.5 litres vs 3 NA.
There was not one single team that went with supercharging and these teams had budgets of millions of dollars and the very best and brightest internal combustion engineers on the planet working here.
I cannot remember of one single turbo related failure.
In Top Fuel/Funny car drag racing turbos are ILLEGAL. Why ?
They would upset the balance. IE they would dominate !

When the NSX was designed Honda broke the moulds.
They pushed the engineering limit. Unfortunately their self imposed limit on HP was 300. Foolishness and a topic for another day.
However I am confident that if Honda wanted to FI the NSX, to match the engineering prowess of the NSX, they would have chosen Turbo.
Bulletproof and efficient. The Honda way.

 

[cptnsx]

I disagree. We're talking about a NSX street car not the ultimate NSX. Yes ultimate speed.....etc the turbo would be the way to go. But with a street car limited to usable power then you can go with either turbo or supercharger.

I chose the SOS supercharger because I have driven turbo cars and they all have lag. Maybe the correct term is throttle lag or the delivery of the power...but I can detect the lag. My SOS supercharger with the intercooler drives like a N/A car with a bigger engine. The throttle response is not only immediate but linear. That to me is more important.

Plus a NSX with 400wrhp and 300wrtq is capable of 119-120 trap speeds maybe more if lighten. This is good for high 11s and maybe even low 11s with slicks. I think this (via supercharger or turbo) makes the NSX a highly capable quarter mile car ---- that is completely drivable and controllable........without tcs and other bs.

 

[NSX-Files]

I chose the SOS supercharger because I have driven turbo cars and they all have lag. Maybe the correct term is throttle lag or the delivery of the power...but I can detect the lag. My SOS supercharger with the intercooler drives like a N/A car with a bigger engine. The throttle response is not only immediate but linear. That to me is more important.

Turbo "lag" is a persistent and lingering stereotype. Sure, there were plenty of turbo super cars that had terrible lag (the original Porsche 930 Turbo is the epitome) but that doesn't mean ALL turbo cars have lag. This is especially true for the modern ones that are properly designed.

IMO, the perception of turbo lag is actually the perception of the turbo's abrupt rush of boost, causing the driver to suddenly realize, "wait a minute, that huge rush wasn't there seconds ago." It is the contrast between no boost and full boost that causes a perception of lag. It's not as though a belt-driven supercharger produces more boost earlier, it is just a more linear buildup. So without a contrast between no boost/full boost, there is not the perception that power was lacking down low. The technical reality is that a properly sized turbo will produce more boost, sooner, and more efficiently than a SC.

As for reliability, I'd say there are two categories: (1) the reliability of the FI components themselves and (2) the effect of boost on the engine's components. The second category comes down to fuel/ignition tuning and knowing the limits of the engine itself, regardless of whether you choose turbo or SC. With the first category, I don't think it's accurate to say a turbocharger is any less reliable than a mechanical supercharger. The turbo is simpler with fewer moving parts, and I suspect cheaper to replace or rebuild if it breaks.

The CTSC got its (deserved) reputation as being reliable because it was well engineered by a competent company. They built it to be safe by making the boost level conservative, and effectively dealing with the inherent problems that FI can cause. They had a decent methodology for handling the fuel/ignition tuning challenges which did not require much monkeying around by the end user. This kept the consumer from being his own worst enemy and protected Comptech's reputation. IMO, the CTSC is not the best performing FI system, it's just the safest for a consumer who doesn't know what the hell he's doing when it comes to FI, because there is not a lot you can screw up. This might make it the best overall FI system for a lot of people.

Well-engineered turbo systems for the NSX probably haven't been around "en masse" as long as the CTSC. It seems like we're now starting to see turbo systems that have been thoroughly designed by people who stand behind their products. They provide everything needed in their "kit" so that the consumer doesn't have to engineer for themselves the parts that are missing. Like Comptech did a long time ago, they are minimizing the consumer's margin of error. This is making turbos a truly viable alternative to the CTSC.

[gets off soapbox]