Thinking, Reflexes and Driving

[apapada]

I got into this interesting discussion over lunch with a few collegues at work. None of them has any HPDE or even autocross experience and some of them cannot even be described as car enthusiasts. Anyway, the discussion came about when I said that everyone should be going to such events, if it is not for fun, at least to become a better driver and find out about what their car is about or... not. Some argued that they will never drive on the street the way they would on a track and therefore whatever is practices at the track is irrelevant for the street. I counter-argued that this is absolutely not true as in a relatively safe environment (like a track or autocross), one can experience things over and over again, learn how to react under conditions which might one day save its butt on the street. I even shared my experience when one time someone almost made me be in an accident, if it wasn't for my quick thinking on avoidance strategy and knowledge on how the car would react (not enough time to stop, oversteer tendancy the second time I would yank the steering wheel to avoid oncoming traffic,...). At that point some argued that "it had to be reflexes. If I had time to think, I had to have enough time to stop". However I do remember very well that day, that I did realize there was not enough time/distance for me to stop safely and avoidance was my only option.
What do you guys think ? Aren't with extensive practice, some reactions other see as reflexes, in fact processes thought and executed by the driver ?

 

[MarkB]

...At that point some argued that "it had to be reflexes. If I had time to think, I had to have enough time to stop". However I do remember very well that day, that I did realize there was not enough time/distance for me to stop safely and avoidance was my only option.
What do you guys think ? Aren't with extensive practice, some reactions other see as reflexes, in fact processes thought and executed by the driver ?

Reflexes (or muscle memory) cannot account for complex reactions in emergency situations. The reason you were able to avoid your potential accident is attributable to repetition of reactions to certain situations. Your thought processes are abbreviated by the mere fact that you have encountered similar situations many times on the track and your mind narrows the list of choices for a response much more quickly.

 

[Chris F]

Reflexes (or muscle memory) cannot account for complex reactions in emergency situations. The reason you were able to avoid your potential accident is attributable to repetition of reactions to certain situations. Your thought processes are abbreviated by the mere fact that you have encountered similar situations many times on the track and your mind narrows the list of choices for a response much more quickly.

For some emergency situations, basic reflexes (turn quick, brake quick) are all you need.

But there's enough people out there that don't even know how to BRAKE let alone correct for oversteer. How many people have actually PRACTICED using the ABS on their car? How many people do you know that don't know what ABS feels like and would pump/lift off the brakes?
http://www.drdriving.org/driveralert/Antilock_needs.html

Someone related a story to me a week ago, and I agree with him.

He had a '00 ITR, and was driving on a country road (probably about 60-70 MPH?) and a deer jumped in front of him. He emergency-lane-changed around it, definitely off the gas, probably on the brakes too, spun it and wrecked it backwards into a tree.

He could have saved it with a little gas.

On Joe American's daily driver (Camry, Accord, Intrepid) you'd have to do some pretty serious mistakes to get the rear to snap around. But on anything resembling a neutral/sporty car, if you make an emergency maneuver and lift/brake, you're going to be pointed backwards pretty quickly. That's some car control that you'll quickly learn at autocross and HPDE.

YMMV, IANAL, etc.

-Chris

 

[92 white 0650]

muscel memory...............encountered similar situations many times on the track and your mind narrows the list of choices for a response much more quickly

Absolutely right. The value of track experience comes into play anytime you're behind the wheel of anything. A no-brainer for anyone with even a little track experience. So, just smile and let it go, because there are severe limitations to what "vehicle operators" (the majority of people on the road) can comprehend when you describe the depth and value of track experience. They'll never get it without actually doing it.

 

[brahtw8]

As you are aware, your colleagues have no idea what they are talking about.

HPDEs teach car control. Car control is basic and universal. The way a car performs in low traction situations is the same, whether that low traction is caused by high speed on a dry road course or by snow or rain on a highway. The same principles apply. Learning to brake in a straight line and proper throttle application while turning should be required learning for driving in the snow and rain.

Until they learn how to control their car, and how throttle input, braking, weight transfer and tire slip angles impact handling, they are simply along for the ride.

As someone with moderate HPDE experience, I know I am a better driver than 95% of the people on the road. Not because I am Senna, but because I understand the basics of car control and realize just how much I have to learn to be a good driver. A wise man knows that he knows nothing.

 

[MarkB]

.. A wise man knows that he knows nothing.

Whole-hearted agreement.

 

[kgb_agent]

YMMV, IANAL, etc.

????

 

[Chris F]

????

Your mileage may vary, I am not a lawyer. Just a disclaimer. If someone takes their mom's Camry and tries to spin it, not my fault.

 

[apapada]

A wise man knows that he knows nothing.

<q lang="en">   "<FONT FACE="Symbol">EN OIDA OTI OUDEN OIDA</FONT>" </q><BR>

or

<q lang="en">   "The only thing I know is than I don't know anything " - Socrates</q><br>

 

[NSXDreamer2]

my take is: For a guy who've been driven on track (properly), seen some accidents, or even hitting a cone at autoX; they will drive a lot more relax but more cautions.

And, I think that's the key of driving enjoyment. I still remembered my first couple time slamming the brakes on the highway (oh, probably10 yrs ago) and my car just barely miss the car in front: I almost had heartattack, cant' stop pounding.... A lot of people are still like that...(eg, my mom, wife, or some of my freinds) If I had that kind of situation, I would probably just smile, hey, just another day of city driiving with those morons...

 

[RP-Motorsports]

I agree. After 7 years of track events, my heart rate probably only increases 25% now while experiencing a near accident compared to 8 yrs ago. I am able to think more clearly about avoidance, and start laying out options in my mind in miliseconds, instead of in the past where I would just lock the brakes up and go along for the ride in which 99.9% of the population would do.

Now car control, I am 1000 times more skilled. Hell I practice my Tommi Makinen at every snow covered corner! :wink:

 

[brahtw8]

<q lang="en">   "<FONT FACE="Symbol">EN OIDA OTI OUDEN OIDA</FONT>" </q><BR>

or

<q lang="en">   "The only thing I know is than I don't know anything " - Socrates</q><br>

Cogito ergo sum. (I think therefore I am) Descartes. I say Cogito ergo Zoom (I think therefore I go fast!). My own philosophy is an eclectic mix of absurdism and modern western thought. (My undergrad degree is in philosophy, FWIW :wink: )

My favorite quote, thus far:

. . . I give you the mausoleum of all hope and desire...I give it to you not that you may remember time, but that you might forget it now and then for a moment and not spend all your breath trying to conquer it. Because no battle is ever won he said. They are not even fought. The field only reveals to man his own folly and despair, and victory is an illusion of philosophers and fools.

William Faulkner

 

[brahtw8]

If I had that kind of situation, I would probably just smile, hey, just another day of city driiving with those morons...

I can't count the number of times that my relatively meager skills on a road course have saved me on the street.

I expect a lot of people on this site would say the same (at least in terms of having been saved on the street, not necessarily the skills aspect).

 

[Chris F]

And, I think that's the key of driving enjoyment. I still remembered my first couple time slamming the brakes on the highway (oh, probably10 yrs ago) and my car just barely miss the car in front: I almost had heartattack, cant' stop pounding.... A lot of people are still like that...(eg, my mom, wife, or some of my freinds) If I had that kind of situation, I would probably just smile, hey, just another day of city driiving with those morons...

Lesson #2 in advanced highway panic braking: Check your rearview mirror, especially if you have an 'out'.

-Chris

 

[Steve]

I have roadraced motorcycles for sometime and can tell you that it totally changes the way you react to emergency situations. I think that it is much more noticable on a bike because I have seen the repetitive accidents over and over of apexing a turn too early on the street, getting startled by an oncoming car, picking the bike up and running straight off of the road. (TARGET FIXATION). Other common accidents involve locking the front tire up from snapping the brake lever. These natural reflexes are tuned out of your brain on the track. I would have never dreamed or learned to grind engine cases off modern sportbikes on the street, and if I ran into a corner that the radius decreased would have just run out of pavement in the past. It is very nice to know where a machine's limit is and even better to be able to make it perform there.