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This is truly the most disturbing thing I have ever heard
- Thread starter jlindy
- Start date
I know you were asking gheba, but I'll answer your question.Accomplice said:
I doubt that's a viable plan for multiple reasons:
1. I smell BS in the story, but someone who is an expert on Islam would have to verify or refute the pig's blood theory. Sounds a little hokey.
2. Even if it's true that being contaminated with pig's blood bars you from heaven, that will not stop extremists. Islam teaches to be peaceful, that doesn't stop them. They would find a way around that with a loophole.
3. We are a civilized country and people, so we do not commit mass murder to teach a lesson.
4. Even if we contemplated such extreme measures to deal with problems, who would decide where to stop? Would this only apply to dealing with Muslim terrorists, or can we apply this to anyone who rises up against us?
I can understand why gheba is asking how old you are.
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Drop a bunch of flyers, take out tv and radio spots saying that "NATO" is declaring martial law until a new Iraqi government is established. Rules (1) no civilian weapon posession (2) dusk to dawn curfew. Violators will be shot dead and PS we have night vision. This will rake a few bad guys out of the sand.
Maybe...T Bell said:
I think the Russians tried something like that, and didn't get too far in Afghanistan...
For those of you that are still hung up on the whole "it was only naked twister" thing, based on the latest news reports, it seems pretty clear that the first set of pictures were just the tip of the iceberg. Congress was reviewing thousands of additional pictures, which will not be released because of the reactions they will cause.
There has been reports of forced sexual acts and more. I know, not a big deal, as long as no major limbs were cut off
There has been reports of forced sexual acts and more. I know, not a big deal, as long as no major limbs were cut off
I think America, had, until recently, its reputation as a country of justice and freedom. The bad press from this is going to tarnish our reputation for a very very long time. We will feel the repercussions of this, and will pay for it one way or another for a very very long time.nkb said:For those of you that are still hung up on the whole "it was only naked twister" thing, based on the latest news reports, it seems pretty clear that the first set of pictures were just the tip of the iceberg. Congress was reviewing thousands of additional pictures, which will not be released because of the reactions they will cause.
There has been reports of forced sexual acts and more. I know, not a big deal, as long as no major limbs were cut off
More of the naivete of Nick Berg’s trip to Iraq:
http://cnn.worldnews.printthis.clic...ast/05/14/iraq.berg/index.html&partnerID=2006
“Nick told me, 'Iraqi police caught me one night, they saw my passport and my Jewish last name and my Israeli stamp. This guy thought I was a spy, so they put me with American soldiers and American soldiers put me in a jail for two weeks,' " said Hugo Infante, a Chilean freelance journalist who stayed at the same Baghdad hotel.
So let me get this right…
He’s traveling alone, in a war zone full of Islamic terrorists, the State Department tells him to leave, offers him a ticket out of there, he declines…AND ALL THE WHILE WITH A PASSPORT SHOWING A TRIP TO ISRAEL AND JEWISH SURNAME?
(Note to self: under similar conditions get a duplicate passport without any stamps before you leave, and be sure to tell Abu Musab al-Zarqawi that “Berg” is German surname. Maybe it’ll work…and at least it’ll be better than the Passport with the TRIP TO ISRAEL RECORDED! What the hell was he thinking!?!?)
And his father is blaming the Bush administration!?! Am I the only one that finds this gratuitous?
http://cnn.worldnews.printthis.clic...ast/05/14/iraq.berg/index.html&partnerID=2006
“Nick told me, 'Iraqi police caught me one night, they saw my passport and my Jewish last name and my Israeli stamp. This guy thought I was a spy, so they put me with American soldiers and American soldiers put me in a jail for two weeks,' " said Hugo Infante, a Chilean freelance journalist who stayed at the same Baghdad hotel.
So let me get this right…
He’s traveling alone, in a war zone full of Islamic terrorists, the State Department tells him to leave, offers him a ticket out of there, he declines…AND ALL THE WHILE WITH A PASSPORT SHOWING A TRIP TO ISRAEL AND JEWISH SURNAME?
(Note to self: under similar conditions get a duplicate passport without any stamps before you leave, and be sure to tell Abu Musab al-Zarqawi that “Berg” is German surname. Maybe it’ll work…and at least it’ll be better than the Passport with the TRIP TO ISRAEL RECORDED! What the hell was he thinking!?!?)
And his father is blaming the Bush administration!?! Am I the only one that finds this gratuitous?
Accomplice said:
Actually, yes I doubt it. It seems more trying to find a loophole in something that is indeed a lot more complicated.
nkb explained quite exactely my thoughts a few posts above.
From:
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_black_jack_pershing.htm
Urban Legends and Folklore
General 'Black Jack' Pershing vs. Muslim Terrorists
Netlore Archive: Did U.S. General 'Black Jack' Pershing rid the Philippines of Islamic extremism in 1911 by executing a group of Muslim terrorists and burying them in a grave filled with pig's blood and entrails?
Description: Email rumor
Status: False
Circulating since: Sep 2001
Honestly I am quite happy it was only an urban legend...
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_black_jack_pershing.htm
Urban Legends and Folklore
General 'Black Jack' Pershing vs. Muslim Terrorists
Netlore Archive: Did U.S. General 'Black Jack' Pershing rid the Philippines of Islamic extremism in 1911 by executing a group of Muslim terrorists and burying them in a grave filled with pig's blood and entrails?
Description: Email rumor
Status: False
Circulating since: Sep 2001
Honestly I am quite happy it was only an urban legend...
nkb said:
1. As I stated when I posted it, the source was unconfirmed.
2. Islam teaches peace? Really? I've heard a lot about the education of hatred in Islamic schools. Those blanket statements you throw out may help you sleep at night but they're far from the truth. Whatever peaceful message may be conveyed in the main text has been contorted in its interpretation.
3. What do you think war is exactly? Did you forget that we are at war with people who want to halt your way of life?
4. "Extreme measures"? Are you kidding? You've been hiding under a rock? Again, these people want to end civilization completely. Whatever steps can be taken to make them go away should be explored ASAP. Stop being so concerned that we'll suddenly want to extend those measures to decent human beings. That would be utterly pointless.
Stop questioning my age and bring some valid points to the table.
nkb said:
There has been reports of forced sexual acts and more. I know, not a big deal, as long as no major limbs were cut off
Its interesting how the two sides react to these events. The crimes our guys committed against the captured enemy in that prison are clearly appalling to the vast majority of Americans, myself included. Though, what the terrorists did to that kidnapped civilian are a shade worse, it doesn't seem to resonate as a horrible thing in the eyes of most Muslims. In fact, its almost shocking that a couple of Arab states bothered to put out a press release to say it was a wrong.
Some more tidbits about the wonderful things that the 'religion of peace' helps bring about...
BBC News, February 10, 2002: "Four people, including a policeman, have been injured in a village in southern Egypt following clashes between Christians and Muslims that broke out at the inauguration of a church."
Under Islamic Law, Jews and Christians were tolerated, so long as they lived by the conditions of a "pact" or dhimma. Thus, Jews and Christians were not only People of the Book (ahl al-kitab), but also People of the Pact (ahl al-dhimma), or dhimmis.
Most interpretations of Pact stipulated that Jews and Christians could practice their religion, but only discreetly. The Pact, including the earliest version (the Pact of Umar) forbade Christians and Jews from praying or singing loudly, even when burying their dead. Ringing church bells was a faux pas.
The Pact also prohibited Jews and Christians from building new houses of worship.
BBC News, February 10, 2002: "Sectarian tensions are known to flare up occasionally over the building of new churches."
For an evenhanded description of the protections and restrictions of the Pact, see book by Bernard Lewis, The Jews of Islam.
BBC News: "Church bells lead to Egypt clashes"
<A HREF="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1812730.stm">
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1812730.stm</A>
amazon.com: Bernard Lewis, The Jews of Islam
<A
HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0691008078/qid=1084558349/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-2997999-9183824?v=glance&s=books">
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0691008078/qid=1084558349/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-299
7999-9183824?v=glance&s=books</A>
That's a problem with any religion. It can be the most peaceful doctrine around, but there will always be humans around that will twist it any way they want.Accomplice said:
I have no information about what is being taught in Islamic schools, so I can't comment on that.
It's a good thing other religions (like Christianity), have never been twisted to get people to kill others in the name of God
nkb said:
It's a good thing other religions (like Christianity), have never been twisted to get people to kill others in the name of God
I agree that in the past other people have twisted religious teachings in order to do horrible things. That doesn't give the thousands of radical Muslims an out for doing so now though. I don't particularly care how they're able to justify what they do. I just know that they have to be stopped. The radical schools funded by the Saudis have to be revamped. Huge populations brainwashed into hating all non-Muslims need to be reprogrammed and brought into a civilized modern world. Its going to be a long haul getting these people out of the stone age.
nkb said:
You're getting stuck on the fact that it may not have occurred before. It’s irrelevant. If it sounds like an effective war tactic that may work against THE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO END CIVILIZATION then it doesn't matter if it was in a friggin nursery rhyme or hard fact. By the way, I'm all ears on your suggestions to ending the radical Islam problem. Or do you even realize that it is one?
I got news for you, a lot of politicians all over the world have put out press releases about how wrong this is. I believe our government did also.Accomplice said:
If these Arab states had not made statements, you would be ripping them for not doing so.
I don't see your point. Is this the only instance you've seen or heard of a religious conflict? Ever heard of any where Christians are the bad guys? If not, do you have blinders and earmuffs on?Accomplice said:
Have you ever heard of the Spanish Inquisition? Anyone who wasn't Catholic was tortured or killed (mostly Jews, but also Muslims, Protestants). Is the Christian religion not a peaceful one?
nkb said:
I'm not a particularly Christian person. I'll pick on whatever religious group IS TRYING TO END MY WAY OF LIFE at any given moment in time. We live in modern times and face the threats that are contemporary to our lives. Most religions have managed to integrate peacefully into modern society despite the past atrocities on their resumes. Hmmm, yet one of them seems to be the kid who doesn't play well with others. Can you guess which one that might be (hint: it aint the Mormons).
That was my point. It does NOT sound like an effective war tactic. In fact, it sounds like a really stupid tactic.Accomplice said:
I read somewhere that one time, a group of Floridians stood on their heads and stuck their thumbs in their butts, and some terrorists saw it and decided that these people were too crazy to battle, so they went home.
Let me know how it turns out.
nkb said:
And you were questioning my age!?
If you find that the Muslims had a problem with the pig treatment it would make for an effective war tactic.
You have been utterly unable to counter my argument with valid points or suggestions. Please let us know your idea of a good way to resolve the radical Islam problem. Or at least acknowledge that it represents a huge problem for civilized people. Come on, you can do it.
nkb said:
I don't recall making that statement. But you seem to imply that there would have been no advantage gained if the tormented people in that circumstance destroyed the base of power of their enemy. Do you even think about these things before you type them?
I'm not sure of your religious affiliation if any, but it seems to me that your position is very similar to that of the 'peaceful' Muslim content to sit back and not even recognize the problems represented by the radicals. Rather than face harsh facts you bring up centuries old situations as if that somehow justifies what radical Muslims are doing today. You want the Muslims to have a 'get out of jail free card' because not every other religion has a perfect track record. The only problem for you and those who think like you is that though there may not have been a powerful force in the world ready to stand up against the murderous Christians centuries ago, there is a force capable of doing whatever is required to crush modern day religious nuts. That is a great thing being that the bad guys are working hard to get their hands on materials that will kill thousands of good people in a single event. I guess its okay for you to have an utter lack of conviction or limited grasp of the situation, but some of us actual care about preserving society as we know it. I guess you'd prefer to keep your head in the sand and hope civilization is there when you decide to wake up. Enjoy your nap.
huckster said:
“The outrage of Iraquis over prisoner torture/abuse leads to the escalation of similar or worse atrocities by an untold number.”
That barbarism escalates in war, agreed. That outraged Iraqis committed all of these atrocities, undetermined.
Many of the atrocities are attributed to fighters who came to Iraq purposely to exploit the chaos and strike at Americans.
Fighters from extremist cricles in Afghanistan volunteered to “fight” in Bosnia, decapitating Serbian captives. It was a national nightmare for Serbs, who remember when Ottoman forces collected severed heads, centuries before.
As Christopher Hitchens, a liberal columnist, remarked in the British paper The Guardian, the Bosnian Muslims were overwhelmingly innocent victims of atrocities by Serbian militias, but the Bosnia cause was contaminated by the evil actions of these pre-Al Qaeda/proto-Al Qaeda fighters.
Hitchens calls most of these fighters “unwanted ‘volunteers’ from the Chechen and Afghan and Kashmiri fronts….” As “an unapologetic defender of the Muslims of Bosnia,” Hitchens remarked that “Bin-Ladenism poisons every thing that it touches.”
Christopher Hitchens, “Let’s Not Get Too Liberal,” The Guardian, September 21, 2001
See Tim Judah’s book, The Serbs, for a picture of a fighter’s boot on severed heads.
On the start of evictions of “holy warriors” from Bosnia, see BBC News item
http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,555458,00.html http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=z0s1K9hNZK&isbn=0300085079&itm=1 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/848808.stm
I was illustrating how silly it is to read something without verifying it, then basing an argument on it.
My point is that the pig treatment sounded about as believable as my approach. Excuse me for using humor.
You enjoy putting words in other people's mouths, don't you? I never said that a problem doesn't exist, I was merely arguing with your approach to solving it.
In your mind, I guess I have failed to counter your argument. However, I have made multiple points about why your approach (remember, this started with your proposed peace plan that advocated nuking Mecca) is asinine, overly simplistic, juvenile, and not grounded in reality. Let me summarize my arguments (which you must have missed) and clarify or add some other ones:
1. You are advocating murdering millions of innocent people to combat a very small, radical group of nuts. Innocent men, women and children will die in your plan. You see no issue with that?
2. You are making an incredible assumption that taking out Mecca would make all the radicals give up.
3. You are also assuming that people who are sympathizing with the terrorists will stop supporting them. I claim that they will become even more convinced of that what they are doing is right, and millions of others who were not supporting them at the time, now will.
4. Killing millions of Muslims in a nuclear bombing will produce millions of martyrs, reinforcing the image of the USA being an evil giant.
5. What happens if we do bomb Mecca, and it doesn't work out the way you foresee it? What's next? On to the next Muslim holy site? Or will it be one of the major Muslim cities?
6. We will have NO allies left in the world. The entire rest of the world will condemn us. Diplomatic ties will be severed. Trade will cease. Economy goes down the tubes, etc, etc.
And I'm not even listing the obvious effects of using nuclear weapons.
I know these points are all silly, and pale in comparison to your well-thought out plan.
I'll be honest, I don't have a solution. But, no solution is better than an idiotic solution like yours. I think we should all be happy that you are nowhere near being in charge.
The reason other countries aren't helping is because we are not allowing them to. Our government doesn't want to give up any authority (or any of the lucrative rebuilding contracts). Cheney and Bush (yes, that order is correct) are too busy handing out contracts to their buddies.jlindy said:
We have rejected calls for the UN to take over the rebuilding process.
nkb said:
No kidding. And given the complete and utter farce that the Food For Oil Program was under the auspices of the U.N., I say good decision!
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