Vick: "...he's a good human being. "

[ShiftyBob]

Bull fighting = legal (Mexico) = NOT in the US (Sill cruelty to animals)
Dog fighting = illegal (USA) = Cruelty to Animals
Eating Dog = legal (Asia) = NOT the US
Betting on dog fighting = illegal (USA) = Cruelty to animals
Betting on dog racing = legal (USA) = A LEGAL sport (No animals harmed)

Vick did this IN the US. Where does your confusion lie? :smile:

 

[TURBO2GO]

I still don't quite see that line between someone who kills an animal vs someone who eats it as a means of sustenance. I guess I lost those debates with my vegan friends who convinced me I'm actually killing those animals, albeit indirectly. I'm too squeamish to do it myself so I rely on the meat industry to do it for me. I know I have a choice to eat meat or go vegan everyday but I choose to eat animals because they are so tasty. So my only defense in all of this is that it's natural. Some people think baboons are herbivores but they routinely hunt other animals and eat meat as do many other animals. So killing for food is completely natural.

Malibu there is validity in what you are saying. If we start with the basic premise that needless suffering is wrong, then both what Vick did and any unnecessary suffering that we cause on other animals like cows or pigs is also wrong. But dog fighting is purely unnecessary, as it only provides entertainment.. and to some, killing for meat consumption is more necessary because it provides food, and therefore, justified.

If we agree that unnecessary suffering is wrong, the question then becomes this: Is there less suffering involved for a cow raised for human consumption than there is for a dog used for fighting? In some cases the answer is yes, and in some cases it is no. A pitbull raised for fighting and a farmed cow may go through a similarly horrid life.

Not all cows or all pigs have that life however. A hunter that shoots a deer and eats it, is not causing the same level of suffering as a guy who buys a burger from McDonald's for example. I think we can safely say that a deer that grew up wild probably did not suffer as a calf that was chained all it's life, was never allowed to walk, was pumped full of growth hormones, and finally slaughtered and sold as veal. Its all relative, but I would say the most needless form of suffering here is a dog being killed for entertainment. A few steps down from that could be the inhumane farming of an animal... a few steps further down may be the killing of a wild animal.

Your vegan friend, has decided to go for what is in his view the least amount of suffering... what is acceptable to him. You have to do what is acceptable to you.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Not really comparing the 2 just agreeing with some of Marbury's statement.

Does anyone know what happens to greyhounds when they don't perform as expected?

Yes. But be careful... You certainly can point out the hypocracy in people arguing against you, but it will not make the act of dog fighting any less despicable.

Vick's actions shouldn't be justified because some people also kill Greyhounds. More importantly, pointing out the wrong and the inhumane carries much greater value than pointing out hypocracy in others.

 

[Malibu Rapper]

Your vegan friend, has decided to go for what is in his view the least amount of suffering... what is acceptable to him. You have to do what is acceptable to you.

Thanks, and I think your last sentence quoted here summarizes what I've been alluding to. Like you said, it's all relative. In my humble opinion, I think we're all callous to certain forms of torture and killing and overly sensitive to others. Whether it be a chicken, pig or cow. I walked into a KFC the other day to grab lunch with protesters outside holding signs that say "Scalded alive" and describing other practices associated with KFC chicken farms. There was another thread with some links to videos of torturing animals before they were slaughtered and also some videos of them being slaughtered that were disturbing. Many people know it's happening on a large scale and a daily basis.

The way I look at this incident is this. I know how my lunch and dinner arrived. I accept that dogs are food sources in other countries. So Vick he's definitely guilty of a crime here in the US and when you commit a crime, you do the time. But who am I to judge him when I support an industry that tortures and slaughters other animals? Yeah, they aren't bred to fight each other but look at those videos in the link and tell me they aren't suffering as much. The reason why I think we don't protest as much is because they aren't commonly accepted as man's best friend.

 

[Ko-nsx]

For some people the Vick dogfighting etc. issue is viewed as criminal injustice and how the system's priorities are stacked against the Blacks......For most people the only issue on the table is criminal justice. Vick was indicted & plead guilty. If Vick thought he was innocent we'd be looking at a jury trial.

If some White NFL quarterback pulled the same crap he'd get the same hammer as Vick is going to get.

As far as recovering the $ it's doubtful there's any left to get. I'd bet his business decisions have been on par with his personal ones.

Michael Vick options were to draw this thing out and be broke and go to jail for the maximum, OR, take the blame for everything, plead guilty and get your 6 to 18 months and try to get back in the NFL. That's the best decision. Vick is not entirely guilty or innocent. He just wants this to be over fast. he owned the property the dog fighting took place and he probably gave his boys money to take care of the house in virgina while in ATL. They messed that up doing whatever they did. He probably knew of some activites, but it wasn't a felony until a year or so ago. It wasn't like he was selling dog fight tickets at the Falcons home games.

Some of us have our own beliefs on the white quarterback thing
The media puts black athletes in bad light when they make mistakes, i guess because they got money and they should know better or something. Basically he was pegged before this would have gone to a trial.

A white quarterback would not be getting his pay cut before he went to trial. No one would be trying to get his heisman trophy like OJ after he was found not guilty by a panel of his peers. You would think Michael vick was selling dog fight tickets the Falcons home games! It's easy for some whites to misjudge blacks by watching the news or getting a drink at the bar. Bad info leads to situations like these. There are very ignorant misconceptions about minorites and other people in the world. The the only thing that bothers me about the vick case is the totally wrong portrayal of his character and how people have judged blacks or blacks with money. Again people saw him as a guilty pig before and REAL facts came out. Kinda like these situations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosewood,_Florida

And yet another
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Smith

 

[Ko-nsx]

Yes. But be careful... You certainly can point out the hypocracy in people arguing against you, but it will not make the act of dog fighting any less despicable.

Vick's actions shouldn't be justified because some people also kill Greyhounds. More importantly, pointing out the wrong and the inhumane carries much greater value than pointing out hypocracy in others.

I have stated previously the I totally disagree with dog fighting. He should be punished if he's found guilty beyond a resonable doubt as well anyone causing unnecessay harm to animals.

I don't know what happens to greyhounds, i just asked a question to see if anyone did. I had heard that horses and greyhounds get killed for performing poorly.

 

[NSXrebel]

The biggest victim in this situation is the Pitbull. God knows there's already plenty of people who want to get rid of this breed, including some on this forum. This only hurts the image of the breed. People's perception is that they are uncontrolable beast only meant to kill anything that breathes.

The bitch I bred my dog with had puppies about a week ago. Can't wait till I get to hold them. Yet some feel they shouldnt even be allowed to live because of their breed alone. Saying they will grow up to be killers.

That's kinda like saying if I had the offspring of Jeffrey Dahmer and KarlaTucker, I should kill it because the parents are serial killers, so it will grow up to be a serial killer as well.

Earlier today I read the most ignorant comment on pitbulls. A young lady's father said that pitbulls attack and kill menstruating women. He's objecting to her getting a pitbull.

 

[PhiAlpha44]

That's fine, give him a 2nd chance to play in the NFL when he's done with all his time and fines. Who the hell would take him? Vick is a P.O.S. and so is Marbury.

 

[TURBO2GO]

I don't know what happens to greyhounds, i just asked a question to see if anyone did. I had heard that horses and greyhounds get killed for performing poorly.

Some are, not all. Public pressure has caused some of the worst practices to stop but it still goes on. Many animals used in racing eventualy suffer a fairly cruel fate. There are many adoption programs now but not all animals get adopted, and some are completely unadoptable after what they have gone through. Many of these animals are used to make money and then discarded. As a general rule whenever animals and money are involved together, you will get some level of cruelty. If you aren't willing to do the dirty work, someone else is willing to do it for you.

That dirty work may involve what is done to a losing fight dog, it may involve what is done to a race dog, a race horse, a lab or a circus animal... it may involve a farmed animal so that McDonald's can bring you a $0.99 hamburger, or it may involve what needs to be done to animals produced by breeders that do not sell at the local pet store.

I am not putting a blanket rule on everyone, as many that are involved in the animal business are actually humane people (and for the most part sick of being told otherwise)... but when you mix animals and money, some dirty work will eventually need to be done somewhere. And someone will do it.

Sometimes looking at yourself in the mirror is a hard thing to do.

 

[Ski_Banker]

This is the same deal as SSgt. Michelle Manhart who posed for playboy and was relieved of her duty by the Air Force. Everyone thru a fit because the USAF discharged her for her actions saying that she did no wrong. In actuality (and ironically considering she was an AF Technical Instructor who's job was to teach new recruits the rules and regulations of the USAF) it specifically states that members of the USAF will in no way (by ones own actions) bring shame or disrespect to the uniform, the service, or their country. It also states that the only places we are allowed to wear our uniforms while NOT on duty are short stops on the way home to places like gas stations, grocery stores, etc (Not in an adult magazine photospread).

What I'm trying to get at is Michael Vick is a well known professional football player, he isnt known for anything else but that, and his actions can/could/ be reflected upon the NFL. This is why he was banned, the NFL dosent want the image that they support criminal activities (or at least thats what i gather they are thinking when they handed down his suspension).

He's not employed by the NFL. He's employed by the Atlanta Falcons. If the Falcons, once he gets out of jail, think he has more (+) to add to their franchise than (-) from being a dog killer... let the Falcons make that decision and us, as sportsfans, vote with our feet and pocketbooks. Simple as that.

The military is not a commercial institution, so any comparison there is going to be off base. Also, as mi madre would say...two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[queenlives]

latest:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/08/27/michael.vick/index.html



if i understand the situation correctly, the nfl has placed him on indefinite suspension, so it seems they'll need to return him to eligibility before he can resume his playing career. who knows how the falcons will treat him / his contract if / when that actually happens.

that said, i agree with what ski said:
"If the Falcons, once he gets out of jail, think he has more (+) to add to their franchise than (-) from being a dog killer... let the Falcons make that decision and us, as sportsfans, vote with our feet and pocketbooks. Simple as that."

film at 11.

 

[Hothonda]

Now that the POS has formally spoken (8/27), he'll probably be off for some kind of rehab treatment and church (he says he's "found Jesus") for a quick disfunctional fix & intense damage control before sentencing.

His biggest obstacle to overcome is that he's a documented liar and most reasonable folks will see through that BS act including the sentencing Judge...

 

[Ko-nsx]

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93127


I wonder what will happen here. Not one ill comment from prime members towards hogans kid driving irresponsibly and seriously injuring another person. I've seen prime members blast others for stoplight romps. Vick is internationally known know as a POS.

 

[Deltron Zero]

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93127


I wonder what will happen here. Not one ill comment from prime members towards hogans kid driving irresponsibly and seriously injuring another person. I've seen prime members blast others for stoplight romps. Vick is internationally known know as a POS.

What are you talking about? He's getting blasted, just like any other black/brown/white/yellow/green person would!

 

[minervoflorida]

Please warn us when you post something like this, it made me sick.





I have personally seen footage of an older german shepherd thrown into a ring with a savagely raised pitbull to be mercilessly killed. That dog was a gentle dog that was someone's pet at some point. What did he do to deserve that fate? We have a member here who is grieving because he just lost his German Shepherd. I hope he does not read this thread.[/QUOTE]

 

[queenlives]

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93127


I wonder what will happen here. Not one ill comment from prime members towards hogans kid driving irresponsibly and seriously injuring another person. I've seen prime members blast others for stoplight romps. Vick is internationally known know as a POS.

(i didn't post to the thread because i didn't read it until your comment; i am absolutely uninterested in hogan, et al.)

hard to say what will happen, but if he's like so many other children of rich people, the legal team his parents will hire will likely result in him receiving a lighter sentence than some other schlep who crashed his car, seriously injuring others but can't afford the best legal representation money can buy. in case you're wondering, ko, i think this is pathetic, but sadly, it's the way the legal systems the world over work: $'s = improved defense team and eventual treatment by the legal system.

having said that, it may well be difficult for the prosecutor to prove that this driver decided to intentionally injure / kill others. this would be different than vick, who has plead guilty to participating and approving the decision to kill dogs who did not win.

 

[Ko-nsx]

What are you talking about? He's getting blasted, just like any other black/brown/white/yellow/green person would!

i posted that earlier and people have responded, my bad.

Nobody is calling for death to hulk hogan and his son or calling them a POS.

Not trying to start a war with you deltron, my post are my feelings about the topics. I'm not judging you by your post or feelings about the vick case. I can agree to disagree. I won't post every racial disparity i see. Paris hilton, linsay lohan and hulk's kid DID NOT get the negative attention that Vick got. Paris Hilton can go on with her life and her status has been upped since the jail time. If vick ever gets on the field again or whatever he does he will suffer the same fate as OJ. The others could buy an nsx and start posting on prime and be accepted probably with some issues. But if vick showed up on prime saying he just purchased and nsx.................
Hopefully you can see my point. It's not racial is the truth.

 

[Ko-nsx]

(i didn't post to the thread because i didn't read it until your comment; i am absolutely uninterested in hogan, et al.)

hard to say what will happen, but if he's like so many other children of rich people, the legal team his parents will hire will likely result in him receiving a lighter sentence than some other schlep who crashed his car, seriously injuring others but can't afford the best legal representation money can buy. in case you're wondering, ko, i think this is pathetic, but sadly, it's the way the legal systems the world over work: $'s = improved defense team and eventual treatment by the legal system.

having said that, it may well be difficult for the prosecutor to prove that this driver decided to intentionally injure / kill others. this would be different than vick, who has plead guilty to participating and approving the decision to kill dogs who did not win.

Good points. I must be the only person on prime that understands or believes WHY Vick choose to plead guilty. If the family of the passenger in hogan's car dies and they decide to sue the Hulk Hogan estate, what do you think Hulk Hogan will do. Fight saying it saying "i wasn't driving!" or just plead guilty take a lessor penalty and just move on? i doubt you wont fight a fight that didn't have to be fought.

 

[DDankew]

Please warn us when you post something like this, it made me sick.





I have personally seen footage of an older german shepherd thrown into a ring with a savagely raised pitbull to be mercilessly killed. That dog was a gentle dog that was someone's pet at some point. What did he do to deserve that fate? We have a member here who is grieving because he just lost his German Shepherd. I hope he does not read this thread.

[/QUOTE]


That would be me.

 

[Deltron Zero]

Nobody is calling for death to hulk hogan and his son or calling them a POS.

Paris hilton, linsay lohan and hulk's kid DID NOT get the negative attention that Vick got.

I think most people agree that Vick's actions were much more gruesome than driving drunk or snorting lines. Now if they killed someone as a result of their actions, things would be much different.

I was going to post images of one of the surviving dogs, but it was just too gruesome - missing ears, chunks of it's face, nose nearly torn off, etc. Made going to the slaughter house seem like a trip to disneyland for dogs. Only a monster could possibly enjoy seeing something like that happen to a living creature.

The others could buy an nsx and start posting on prime and be accepted probably with some issues.

I can see it now.

What color rims go best with my new louie vuitton handbag?

It's not racial is the truth.

Correct!

 

[Ko-nsx]

It looks like DMX just couldn't let Vick have all the fun. My parents live right next to this bag of douche.

http://www.ksdk.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=127804

http://www.ksdk.com/video/default.aspx?aid=57581&bw=
In the video a lady states that 10 quads going down the road creates dust.


Is he the douche bag or the caretaker? I like DMX's music and movies but he is not exactly a model citizen. With that i can't belief somebody got the ok to dig up another yard looking for remains. I wish we could find Osama.

 

[DrVolkl]

Was Pete Rose black?? I think he had "similar" issues. Drop the race BS...

 

[Deltron Zero]

In the video a lady states that 10 quads going down the road creates dust.

It really does. There are miles and miles of trails out there. No reason to speed up and down the dirt roads near the houses. It freaks the horses out too.


Funny unrelated story. One of my parents' horses had a baby, and Earl (DMX) stopped by and said, "Look at the puppy!"

 

[Synthesis]

i think dogfighting or putting any creature in any situation like this is a horrible act.

that being said - when will we (human race) stop killing each other in the same/worse ways.

it's an f'd up world. i think we need to start exposing more people like this, but you know there will always be the people who are above the law that will get away with it every time AND capitalize off of it (ie, government officials, military leaders, police, etc.)

wtf is there in the golden rule that is so hard to understand?

 

[Ko-nsx]

I think most people agree that Vick's actions were much more gruesome than driving drunk or snorting lines. Now if they killed someone as a result of their actions, things would be much different.

I was going to post images of one of the surviving dogs, but it was just too gruesome - missing ears, chunks of it's face, nose nearly torn off, etc. Made going to the slaughter house seem like a trip to disneyland for dogs. Only a monster could possibly enjoy seeing something like that happen to a living creature.



I can see it now.




Correct!

do any of your photos show vick? His car? His hand? Reciepts? Papers? a shoe print from Vick? A stool sample?

I'm sorry for any dog or animal that is mutilated for any reason, but I can't feel the same way about them that i feel for human life, your pics can't be bad as these stories(no pics needed)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Byrd_Jr