You guys won't believe this. My stereo install.

[PoKnow]

Turbo,

After reading one of your goals...

1. Leveraging the MS8 to tune
2. Figuring out what it does
3. Then possibly replacing it with components that will do the same thing

I couldn't myself but get excited start thinking of ways that this could be done. I think it's definitely possible.

Lets say you figure out individual speaker eq, and time correction.

I've owned the MS8 for almost a year now. Though I hated it at first... what I think makes the MS8 great is not only the tune but then running the tune through Logic 7. This is what, in my opinion, takes it from good to amazing.

I think without that you'd only be 40% as good as the MS8. I believe Logic7 is the other 60%. Staging... rear effects (I understand the NSX won't have rears)

MS8 has the ability to turn off Logic7... I used to think it sounded better off but now I can't imagine living without it.

What are you thoughts? Just picking your brain.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Turbo,

After reading one of your goals...

1. Leveraging the MS8 to tune
2. Figuring out what it does
3. Then possibly replacing it with components that will do the same thing

I couldn't myself but get excited start thinking of ways that this could be done. I think it's definitely possible.

Lets say you figure out individual speaker eq, and time correction.

I've owned the MS8 for almost a year now. Though I hated it at first... what I think makes the MS8 great is not only the tune but then running the tune through Logic 7. This is what, in my opinion, takes it from good to amazing.

I think without that you'd only be 40% as good as the MS8. I believe Logic7 is the other 60%. Staging... rear effects (I understand the NSX won't have rears)

MS8 has the ability to turn off Logic7... I used to think it sounded better off but now I can't imagine living without it.

What are you thoughts? Just picking your brain.

I think your basic mechanicals have to be right, too much reliance on EQ and time correction is not good. It has side effects. I am taking measurements to get the mechanical part (placement, driver size and type) right first, then fine tuning it with DSP or analog EQ.

As for logic7, I don't know, I am not even close to being there yet. I just came up with a good laser pointer to attach to my drivers to see what angles focus sound where I want. Thanks for the heads up though...

I can tell you though that my intention is to run 10 channels. I'll see how it works out. I also have thoughts of doing some passive sound control. I started to take measurements around the rear window. I think some absorption around the rear glass would really be helpful. I made two small absorption panels and attached them to the sides of the headrest. The effect is dramatic. You can hear a difference with the car off, the stereo off, the windows rolled up. The ambient noise OUTSIDE the car was reduced. Because they were very close to my ears. This may work wonders for reducing engine noise being audible, especially on cars with engine covers removed where quite a bit of high frequency trash tends to make it in.

Of course these would do wonders for the stereo as well, but what I had looked super goofy. Like Mickey Mouse ears around the headrest. I have to spend time and work on it more.

Unfortunately I have little time because my work is super busy. I'd like to get something done before winter. At least I am done with that whole Advan GB thing, that was killing me.

 

[bngl3rt]

Hey Turbo,

Maybe you've already addressed this - if so I apologize.

I know you don't like head units, but for those of us that do, would using a head unit with a built-in amp to drive the cabin speakers be a way to save weight?

Because of what you've said about the amount of power required in the NSX cabin I'm assuming the answer is no. Most head units put out well under 50 watts. Also you'd still need a mono amp to run the sub anyway, so probably the weight gain of a 1ch vs 3+ch amp is negligible.

Thought I'd ask

 

[Michigan NSX]

*Silently following*

 

[TURBO2GO]

would using a head unit with a built-in amp to drive the cabin speakers be a way to save weight?

Which cabin speakers? Aftermarket ones? sure it would save weight but it won't sound great. The Bose speakers run off their own amps.

If you mean my speakers, I am sure it would work but would it sound good? Meh... At low volume levels yes. I think it would. Turn it up and it will quickly go south.

You can use the factory head unit, but you have to add an amp. I am removing the bose amps and drivers. The Bose system has great enclosures, which I am keeping. They have so-so drivers, which I am upgrading (by a huge margin), they have horrible amps, which I am tossing.

See here is the deal: The NSX cabin is small and so are the Bose enclosures. In order to get high output from a small driver, it needs to travel further in and out. A larger Xmax if you will. In high Xmax drivers the suspension is very stiff so the cone doesn't go flying into the passenger seat. That stiff suspension requires more energy to drive. That energy is the power of your amplifier.

There is no free lunch, something has to give. In this case, I am basically replacing size with power. It's fine, because with the new class D amps you can get a lot of power in an efficient, small package.

Here is my weekend project:

 

[audax]

*silently following* also

20% of it is over my head, but if this was ever offered up for sale I'd be the first in line.

 

[TURBO2GO]

So far I am really loving the ultra smooth sound of this hivi the best. I made pods for my Vifa but it isn't quite as smooth IN THE CAR even though it is very good outside. The hivi... man... The thing is INCREDIBLE off axis. Just what you want in a car.

Vifa is the left one. Hivi the egg-shaped one.

So here are the best spots where I get the smoothest response:

And I was playing with a center channel:

I might actually use both. The Vifa in the rear and the Hivi up front.

By the way these locations require NO CUTS besides being the best spots sonically. The Hivi ring can be painted. I am a long ways away from actually installing anything, just doing test fits.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Guys I am looking for feedback from anyone reading this thread. I will always find the best acoustical solutions but since I will probably make some kits I want to know what yor thoughts are and how you feel about speaker placement. I've shown that the best spot for the best tweeter happens to be buried in the corners of the windshield. How do you guys feel about that? They are hardly noticeable (the center you notice if you do one, but that would be for the real high-end kit). To my eye it actually looks kinda neat and is too small to be any kind of eyesore, but give me some feedback.

The floor sub i am not thrilled with so far. I find the carpet and backing to be reducing certain frequencies giving me uneven response. I am on a mock box and not even in the Bose box yet, but I can clearly hear the effect of the carpet. The Bose sub is firing up into the dash, firing off the metal aluminum plate. I am not thrilled with this either. It sends bass to the wrong place, it makes a bit of a disconnect from the door speakers. Since my door speakers produce lots of bass on their own, this overlap of frequencies sends some in the wrong direction and you get some amount of cancellation.

I had an idea of making a very small quad subwoofer setup directly ahead of the front seat cushion. Sort of a bazooka tube style but smaller with a sub on each end of the tube in a sealed cylinder for lower extension. Although lower in output, I am using 4. Still very light, out of the way, and can be easily removed for any track work. It would attach to the seat, not to the floor. It would move with the seat. It always clears your legs.

This option would free up 3+ inches of leg room on the passenger side. You can mount your amplifier there. The the factory aluminum footplate can become part of the amplifier heat sink and actually cool the amp there.

 

[UnhuZ]

Hi,

Dave, here goes my thoughts about some points:

(...) I've shown that the best spot for the best tweeter happens to be buried in the corners of the windshield. How do you guys feel about that? They are hardly noticeable

I don't have any problems with that location... but how about the front door triangle?? isn't too far away from that position and the tweeter could be integrated in a custom triangle.

I had an idea of making a very small quad subwoofer setup directly ahead of the front seat cushion. Sort of a bazooka tube style but smaller with a sub on each end of the tube in a sealed cylinder for lower extension. Although lower in output, I am using 4. Still very light, out of the way, and can be easily removed for any track work. It would attach to the seat, not to the floor. It would move with the seat. It always clears your legs.

Again, it seems good, but in my case, as i don't abuse bass, i would only buy the sub, if i was not entirely satisfied witht he door speakers, and by what you said about your tests, i think it's more than enough for me.

As i told you, with the OEM Bose system, i never used the bass knob above 50% of its scale.

So you can understand more about the type of sound i like, i will give you some brand comparisons:

- Home speakers: Monitor Audio > B&W
- Home AV Receivers: Yamaha > Onkyo
- Car Audio: Pioneer > Alpine

i heard numerous systems, and the best description i can give you is that of the Home speakers: I prefer Monitor Audio because of the mid-high crystal clear sound they give, compared with others (with same AV and player)

I just need enough Bass to know it's there, and feel a little hummmpff...

So, resuming what i would want so far:

- Door speakers with adapters to use Bose OEM case
- Mini amp (you know i'm all about to save weight :tongue
- Tweeters as you see fit (not like 10 of them :tongue
- Interface to connect Ipod/Iphone to amp
- Cables and misc. stuff to connect everything

PS - Yes, i would prefer to run wires to the doors (yes, i know it would be a pain to route them)

Thanks,
Nuno

PSS - was this what you expected as feedback ?? :biggrin::biggrin:

 

[bngl3rt]

I had an idea of making a very small quad subwoofer setup directly ahead of the front seat cushion. Sort of a bazooka tube style but smaller with a sub on each end of the tube in a sealed cylinder for lower extension. Although lower in output, I am using 4. Still very light, out of the way, and can be easily removed for any track work. It would attach to the seat, not to the floor. It would move with the seat. It always clears your legs.

This option would free up 3+ inches of leg room on the passenger side. You can mount your amplifier there. The the factory aluminum footplate can become part of the amplifier heat sink and actually cool the amp there.

This sounds great to me. All the other amp mounting locations are compromised in some way as far as I'm concerned (loss of seat travel from mounting it on the firewall, running cables thru the engine bay to get to the trunk) but freeing up the footwell is perfect.

I've had Bazooka-tube style powered subs in other cars and always thought they sounded pretty good - as long as you're not a basshead trying to rattle everyone else's windows. Big 8"+ subs always seemed like overkill in cars.

Whatever kit you come up with, I will probably buy the highest SKU. Light weight and high quality sounds good to me, bonus if it's developed by a fellow non-automotive audiophile.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Hi,

I don't have any problems with that location... but how about the front door triangle?? isn't too far away from that position and the tweeter could be integrated in a custom triangle.

I tried it, and it doesn't sound the same. I had to use a more shallow tweeter there, and so that had a lot to do with it. There is no depth in that triangle. Zero. You have to build a pod... then use a thin tweeter. I hate to have things like that dictate what parts I use because then the sound quality suffers. These tweeters are rather large. They are using a diaphragm that is well over 1". That gives them better dispersion, and also a lower resonant frequency. The door triangle is a compromise in several ways. Not to mention, you might be wanting to re-wire your door through that grommet, 99% of people won't. It is truly a painful project. I can wire these tweets on the dash in 5 minutes. Better sound, easier install, better part. The cabin angle with which this spot allows me to mount is vastly superior to the little triangle. More equalized path lengths, less reflections off the opposing glass, and a more appropriate distance between the left and right.

This sounds great to me. All the other amp mounting locations are compromised in some way as far as I'm concerned (loss of seat travel from mounting it on the firewall, running cables thru the engine bay to get to the trunk) but freeing up the footwell is perfect.

I've had Bazooka-tube style powered subs in other cars and always thought they sounded pretty good - as long as you're not a basshead trying to rattle everyone else's windows. Big 8"+ subs always seemed like overkill in cars.

Whatever kit you come up with, I will probably buy the highest SKU. Light weight and high quality sounds good to me, bonus if it's developed by a fellow non-automotive audiophile.

The carpet has a rather thick rubber backing. Then that has padding, then the carpet is atop the padding. Whatever the bass is coming from forward firing boxes in the footwell, it is compromised. Clearly, the bose driver and its port fire UP, not out. Unless I can manage to get another driver that does the same thing, I am not going to use that location. Especially when it is taking up what can be valuable amplifier space.

 

[UnhuZ]

Hi,

I tried it, and it doesn't sound the same. I had to use a more shallow tweeter there, and so that had a lot to do with it. There is no depth in that triangle. Zero. You have to build a pod... (...) More equalized path lengths, less reflections off the opposing glass, and a more appropriate distance between the left and right.

i understand that, but when i talked about those triangles, i meant using THOSE tweeters, not a shallow option (even if they were to protrude more into the cabin), and i know i had to build a custom pod.

But when you talked about the sound quality, that i highlighted in bold blue, that sold me.... your option it is :wink:

and how do you secure them in that location?? i know you won't drill the dash, and i assume it won't be a suction thingie on the windshield...so what??

The carpet has a rather thick rubber backing. Then that has padding, then the carpet is atop the padding. Whatever the bass is coming from forward firing boxes in the footwell, it is compromised. Clearly, the bose driver and its port fire UP, not out. Unless I can manage to get another driver that does the same thing, I am not going to use that location. Especially when it is taking up what can be valuable amplifier space.

the speaker is on the upper part of the enclosure facing the bottom of the glove box... if you made an adapter as you did in the doors, then facing the speaker more into the cabin and less to under the dash, it would be best no??

and about the carpet, as it's upper in the enclosure, it's almost where it ends, so the carpet could be cut a little (i have red aftermarket one) and a grill over it to protect from feet...

Am i suggesting stupid things or as with the tweeters, you prefer other location because of sound quality??

as i'm not much into bass, a bazooka like with 4, or even only 2, units would be overkill for me, i think. If i would install it, i suspect i wouldn't be using not even 25% of the potential.

About space for amp.... i don't know how compact are you talking about with these small amps, but i removed the ABS ECU and i have all that space and arround it to use....

Nuno

 

[gleibig]

So, who's gonna organize the group buy on this? :tongue:

 

[TURBO2GO]

i understand that, but when i talked about those triangles, i meant using THOSE tweeters, not a shallow option (even if they were to protrude more into the cabin), and i know i had to build a custom pod.

Nuno this tweeter is kind of long, it would look ridiculous there...

and how do you secure them in that location?? i know you won't drill the dash, and i assume it won't be a suction thingie on the windshield...so what??

Honestly they wedge in there tightly on their own. I haven't come up with something yet but something like a good velcro would probably work fine. They aren't heavy.

the Bose subwoofer is on the upper part of the enclosure facing the bottom of the glove box... if you made an adapter as you did in the doors, then facing the speaker more into the cabin and less to under the dash, it would be best no??

Yes, it would be, if it wasnt then firing into the back of the carpet. That's the real problem kicking my ass.

and about the carpet, as it's upper in the enclosure, it's almost where it ends, so the carpet could be cut a little (i have red aftermarket one) and a grill over it to protect from feet...

This is what I am thinking. It is way up at the top. And you don't even see it really. But would people be willing to cut their carpet up there? It's probably not a huge notch... it just needs to clear roughly 5" for the cone.

Am i suggesting stupid things or as with the tweeters, you prefer other location because of sound quality??

No I absolutely want input on any ideas I may not see.

as i'm not much into bass, a bazooka like with 4, or even only 2, units would be overkill for me, i think. If i would install it, i suspect i wouldn't be using not even 25% of the potential.

Well, possibly, but don't forget I am talking about 3-4" drivers. These are tiny! Even the smallest bazzoka is almost 8" in diameter. We are not talking about earthshaking bass. But my intent is to get down low anyway. One of the benefits of using multiple drivers at different points (2 facing each way in front of each seat) is that it evens out cabin response.

See the bass tends to build in one spot more in the car when it is coming from one location. Being in different spots really evens the sound and it gives it an amazing blend to the doors.

About space for amp.... i don't know how compact are you talking about with these small amps, but i removed the ABS ECU and i have all that space and arround it to use....

Where is that and how big is it? I am curious. See the issue is that although you removed yours, most won't want to. Most want to keep things OEM, and that is one of my big design criterias.

 

[TURBO2GO]

So, who's gonna organize the group buy on this? :tongue:

LMAO... that was good... :biggrin:

 

[UnhuZ]

Hi,

Nuno this tweeter is kind of long, it would look ridiculous there...

solved then.. :biggrin:

Honestly they wedge in there tightly on their own. I haven't come up with something yet but something like a good velcro would probably work fine. They aren't heavy.

Yeah... i would need to secure them, because with a stiffer suspension, nothing stays anywhere on their own :wink:

maybe a little tab with one end screwed into the tweeter and the other would be slide down the gap between dash and upper vent_long_ass piece :wink:

Yes, it would be, if it wasnt then firing into the back of the carpet. That's the real problem kicking my ass.

This is what I am thinking. It is way up at the top. And you don't even see it really. But would people be willing to cut their carpet up there? It's probably not a huge notch... it just needs to clear roughly 5" for the cone.

Well, possibly, but don't forget I am talking about 3-4" drivers. These are tiny! Even the smallest bazzoka is almost 8" in diameter. We are not talking about earthshaking bass. But my intent is to get down low anyway. One of the benefits of using multiple drivers at different points (2 facing each way in front of each seat) is that it evens out cabin response.

See the bass tends to build in one spot more in the car when it is coming from one location. Being in different spots really evens the sound and it gives it an amazing blend to the doors.

excellent explanation...

well... 3-4" speakers (drivers) would need a bazzoka a little wider, no?? maybe 4-5" (1/2" all arround - casing thickness)

if so, then i think that they could be hardly noticed in front/below the outter seat cushion.... i'm more than happy with that

so.... guess what !!! solved then :tongue:

Where is that and how big is it? I am curious. See the issue is that although you removed yours, most won't want to. Most want to keep things OEM, and that is one of my big design criterias.

imagine you remove the console and your OEM HU, then you look at the bottom, in front of the shift assy, and see the top of the ABS ECU... it rests on top of the tunel, it has carpet on both sides and depending on the amp size, it could fit there (i can take measurements and photos like in wednesday)...the problem is not the height of it, as the ABS ECU is pretty thick, but the horizontal size: width and depth.

but i think the OEM sub location is the most obvious place, as the bazookas will remove that and all that space is more than inviting for the amp.....

so.... solved then :wink:

now i start to think that this Uber-Elite kit of yours will cost quite a bit, no??
(can you give any target ballpark??? even if it is a bit wide??)

Thanks,
Nuno

 

[TURBO2GO]

No, it wont be very expensive... I am purposely staying away from very exotic parts that add a lot of cost.

 

[eddy w]

hey turbo, awesome work! anxiously waiting your final results and reccomendations! This has been and still is a great read! Im in on any group buy in the hopefully near future.
eddy

 

[TURBO2GO]

Well I just checked on where the carpet would need to be cut for a forward firing woofer. It's not good. I don't like it. It's too much that needs to be cut. I will not have a 6" woofer there. I am going to have to try a 4" I mean the factory one is a 3.5 so it's not like it will be worse than that.

So I have ordered more drivers (my house is starting to look like a speaker repair shop) and am going to try a 4" woofer in the stock box firing up and also I'll build my own bazooka style tube and see how it is. Just have to test everything.

 

[TURBO2GO]

hey turbo, awesome work! anxiously waiting your final results and reccomendations! This has been and still is a great read! Im in on any group buy in the hopefully near future.
eddy

Thanks man...

 

[haveblue]

Great job! Looking forward to the group buy. I would love to have better sound quality inside the car. The tweeters in the corners of the windows seem fine.

I may have missed it in the thread, but will this use the existing head unit being output into an external amp? Or an aftermarket head unit?

 

[BTL3.0]

Great job! Looking forward to the group buy. I would love to have better sound quality inside the car. The tweeters in the corners of the windows seem fine.

I may have missed it in the thread, but will this use the existing head unit being output into an external amp? Or an aftermarket head unit?

Me too.
I know some people only like to listen to the engine sounds. But im half n half. I like music, espeically on long trip.
Love to see the end result of this project.

Keep up the good work Dave.

 

[socalx]

I've been silently following as I'm looking for a solution. But in my opinion those egg shaped tweeters look ridiculous. To anyone getting in the car they look like you went to radio shack and bolted on some cheap speakers.
The tweeters need to be flush mounted somewhere

 

[BTL3.0]

here's a crazy idea. what about mounting those egg tweeters inside the center air vents? it'll take some modification but, i'm thinking u can still get the sound thru the vents. plus it's out of sight.. i dont know.. maybe it would hinder some sound frequencies.. just something to think about.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Great job! Looking forward to the group buy. I would love to have better sound quality inside the car. The tweeters in the corners of the windows seem fine.

I may have missed it in the thread, but will this use the existing head unit being output into an external amp? Or an aftermarket head unit?

You can use the existing head unit, or an aftermarket head unit, or like me, NO head unit. It doesn't matter. Any option will work.

But in my opinion those egg shaped tweeters look ridiculous. To anyone getting in the car they look like you went to radio shack and bolted on some cheap speakers.
The tweeters need to be flush mounted somewhere

Here are a couple of things to consider:

1) the tweeters in the dash corners are nearly invisible. They have a gold ring now which I would paint black. But several people have been in my car now and NOT ONE has even seen the tweeters. They have commented on my missing radio, my missing door speaker grilles, and even dust on my dash. But they simply don't see the tweets. From the outside, same thing.... unless you look, you really cannot see them (not counting the center channel, which I am doing away with after some testing today with my MS-8).

2) Tweeters are absolutely the most sensitive as far as placement. While a "flushmount" may look better to some, the baffle it is mounted on, be it door panel or pillar pod or AC vent or whatever, creates some early sonic reflections that change the sound. That egg shape, and the tweeter being "baffle-less", are what help create a very open and airy sound, and a sharp focused image. Clarity.... there are reasons for that egg shape. Have you looked at any of B&W's high end speakers?

The other benefit, other than better sound, is that you don't need to cut your panels to install them. Which do you guys prefer? better sound and no cuts, easier wiring, or the more "built-in" look?

I can offer a second tweeter that can be cut into the door, and then you'd have to run a new wire into the door as well or place the crossover in the door (it would be passive and not active any more so there is yet another slight loss in sound quality), and use the thin factory wire for both the tweeter and woofer... increasing the load on a wire that is not really appropriate.

For those that really don't like the tweeter on the dash, you can also run them here:

This was my second best location. It is on the lower part of the dash next to the speaker. It is tucked out of the way, but inside the car not inside the door. There it is completely invisible, in fact if I got into my own car 10 times and knew it was there, I would probably see it once.

I want you guys to chime in on this issue, because these two locations will require different hardware and alignment settings.

For those that want to know the technical challenge... the woofers are 4 ohm and this tweeter is nominal 6. That moves my X-over frequency up by almost 4000Hz with a passive crossover set at say 2500Hz. I have to design a very unique passive crossover, or just go active which I like better anyway. This is one reason I like staying active because it gives me more flexibility on matching drivers of various nominal impedance. It allows me to go for the best quality, not one that happens to be the right impedance but not as good a driver. Since they are tweeters, having them be a 6 or 8 ohm load is not a problem for the amp, it will still have plenty of power.