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A woman sues Honda for MPG on hybrid

This? He is comparing two totally different cars!

How about we do a mid trim Prius, and compare it to a mid trim Tundra. If you want to compare you compare the same car in a hybrid and non-hybrid version. A Prius is not a Corolla. It's not more money just because it's a hybrid. It has more room, has more options, and is a different class of car. If we compare it to a Lexus IS, the ROI is almost instant!

Saying it takes 8 years to recover the money is good for the personal comparison he is making for his own car shopping. That's fine if he feels the two cars are the same.... but it has nothing to do with the ROI rates on hybrids. That is what we were talking about.

There is no non-hybrid version of the Prius with which to compare. ROI on hybrids are calculated based on price differences between vehicles of comparable utility, taking that difference and dividing it by cost per gallon and miles driven. Seeing there was no non-hybrid counterpart to the Prius, an intra-brand comparison to a Matrix was reasonable.
 
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Reasonable to who? It's COMPLETELY subjective. Your conclusion is not fact. It is opinion. It's perfectly fine to say my opinion is that with my driving habits I'll break even saving gas on a Prius versus if I buy that gray 4 door 5-speed corolla with the S package for X dollars more instead. It's completely wrong to say "the return on investment on a hybrid is around 8 years based on this math".

I'm not trying to pick on hapa, I think for him, it makes sense and I'm glad he brought his perspective into it. But just like people's claims on hybrid battery life and cost are often wrong, assuming numbers like 8 years as if they are fact is also wrong. If we sit and say "oh yeah Honda is a big liar when it comes to MPG numbers"... When in fact they get that from a standardized EPA test like everyone else, is that right? No. It's wrong. Let's separate fact from opinion. If there's no non-hybrid Prius, then compare two cars like the versions of the sonata... Or Camry... Or ford fusion... Or Altima...
 
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I would compare a Prius with an Echo, which personally I know the Echo gets a consistent 42-45 MPG.

So for the ROI in this scenario, the Prius doesn't pay out soon enough for my personal tastes.

As far as battery replacements in Hybrids......They are being swapped more frequently than you'd think. Some manufacturers *cough* keep this on this down-low.
 
To make this easier to understand... The cost difference between a hybrid and non-hybrid maybe a few thousand dollars. If you take two cars and try to do an analysis of whether it's worth it or not, all you math is thrown out the window if you give ONE car something as simple as a fancier stereo. One $900 option added to one car can completely change your results, nevermind two or three. To compare two cars that aren't the same and try to draw any sort of fact on hybrid/non-hybrid costs from it just makes it OPINION.
 
As far as battery replacements in Hybrids......They are being swapped more frequently than you'd think. Some manufacturers *cough* keep this on this down-low.

Can you tell me where you get this from? What's "more frequently than you'd think?".... If tracking them on hybrid forums is an indication, they are hardly ever replaced. Do you have actual data on this?
 
This is why GM only sold 1700 or so Volt's in 2011. Their sales goals were 10000. Know how many Leaf's sold? The consumer is not seeing the benefit of these vehicles and the newness of the EV/hybrid is wearing off.

GM's 2012 sales target was 60000. What a joke. The Volt, Leaf and Fiat 500were simply some of the biggest product sales flops of the year.

Show me a natural gas vehicle with range of 200 miles and a good filling station network and I'll sign on the dotted line. Equivelent fuel cost is near $1.50 per gallon of gas and nat gas is clean and plentiful.
 
Kookoo you said 1700 volts sold in 2011, the actual number is 7671. The goal was 10,000 first year, and they fell short not because of a lack of demand, but a lack of supply. The car was available for sale in all 50 states for only one month, December. The Nissan leaf has around a 1 year wait list.... and you are saying the novelty has worn off?? Try buying a leaf right now. Demand is MUCH higher than supply. GM's goal of 60k is also not correct. Right now GM can't produce more than 60k. 45k of those are coming to the U.S. because GM feels confident they will all go.

Overall it's the exact opposite of what you are saying with demand wearing off because these cars are a "novelty" of sorts. Demand is very high. The Volt you are thinking no one wants has the highest customer satisfaction rate of any car produced last year. 93.7%.
 
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Prius sales have now passed the TWO MILLION mark. That is serious success. I imagine if the car was junk, they wouldn't have sold that many. I don't know a single unhappy owner. They are not all a bunch of greenies.
 
This is not scientific at all but I have repaired easily over 100 Prius and have never had a customer complain about their ownership experience.
They seem to love them and a few have had some serious miles and use.
I love the idea but being the business owner I have to get to work and sometimes get customers home in ANY weather and a golf cart just won't cut it for me.
 
I'm reading directly from my NSX Window sticker:

"Actual Mileage will vary with options, driving conditions, driving habits, and vehicle condition. Results reported to EPA indicates that the majority of vehicles with these estimates will achieve between: 14 and 20 mpg in the city and between 20 and 28 mpg on the highway.

I don't know what the Civic sticker says but I bet it's more detailed then my 11 year old NSX.

"Heather Peters says her car never came close to getting the promised 50 miles per gallon, and as its battery deteriorated, it was getting only 30 mpg. She wants Honda to pay for her trouble and the extra money she spent on gas."

So if you drive your Civic Hybrid like a lead foot idiot and the battery wears out on schedule, you should be able to bring suit for your trouble. This country is going to the birds. I should move to Australia.
 
This? He is comparing two totally different cars!

How about we do a mid trim Prius, and compare it to a mid trim Tundra. If you want to compare you compare the same car in a hybrid and non-hybrid version. A Prius is not a Corolla. It's not more money just because it's a hybrid. It has more room, has more options, and is a different class of car. If we compare it to a Lexus IS, the ROI is almost instant!

Saying it takes 8 years to recover the money is good for the personal comparison he is making for his own car shopping. That's fine if he feels the two cars are the same.... but it has nothing to do with the ROI rates on hybrids. That is what we were talking about.

Turbo2Go is absolutely right. What I should have compared was the Civic HF to the Civic Hybrid. Very similar standard features, same size, same size class, etc.

MSRP for the HF is $19455 vs the Hybrids $24050 (difference of $4595). Annual cost according to fueleconomy.gov based on 50% city/highway driving at $3.80 a gallon, 15k miles is $1,676 for the HF & $1,295 for the Hybrid (difference of $381).

To make up the difference of $4595, it'll just over 12 years to break even (if you decide to step up to the EX model, it'll take 10.6 years).

Keep in mind that is a basic estimate.. it doesn't take into account maintenance costs, depreciation, etc.
 
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I've said it many times on this forum, Honda has the worst implementation of hybrid technology I've seen between Toyota, Ford, Hyundai and Honda.

The opposite of that is that they have the best standard engine fuel efficiency there is, making the comparison between a civic and civic hybrid look like the hybrid is a waste of money (and in this case, it is). Their insight isn't a great car either, and they discontinued the accord hybrid.

But take Toyota: The Prius is an engineering wonder for a $20k car. It's far from a "golf cart", it's actually a roomy, well optioned and comfortable if not sporty car. The Camry hybrid now gets close to 50. They have a largish SUV in the highlander that gets FAR better MPG than the standard model. These hybrids have better resale, and their performance on both the highlander and Camry is much closer to their V6 models than the 4's. This is just more advanced hybrid technology.

Which is what really worries me when Honda talks of a hybrid NSX but we will see. I hope they get it right.

The thing is though, if we bash every new technology like hybrids, EV's and natural Gas or fuel cell cars, they will never have a chance to sell and improve. Someone has to buy the early models and support the manufacture. Be glad someone else does. Don't bash that guy. The first gen Prius was nothing like the current model. It was with the help of early adopters that the car made it and flourished. My friend just dropped close to 120K on a plug-in hybrid. Is he stupid? He founded a biotech company that is now the leader in what they do. He is one of the most intelligent and humble guys I've ever met. He could have had a number of terrific cars, but he felt because he can, he should "invest" in technology he believes in. He is fully aware he didn't get a bargain car to save gas money.

I'd think as car guys, we'd have some level of appreciation for engineering work and technology. Not just speed and stoplight races. Especially this group of NSX owners who I hope get it. I won't go into politics or environmentalism but at the very least we can agree that we have a limited supply of oil. We have to start some place with new technology. Car manufacturers are aware if this. They aren't pushing an "unpopular" car as some of you say because they had too much to drink last night. They are aware of limitations and the need to adapt. I think it's better to be supportive than critical.

BTW, this woman will lose her case if the judge doesn't throw it out outright. She needs to go to driving school.
 
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The Prius is an engineering marvel, no doubt.
As I stated before:
I think it was developed to reduce our dependency on fossil fuels and further automotive innovations & technologies.

The current Prius is definitely not the car for me... I just feel it is too much oriented toward drivers who see driving as a "task" as opposed to driving as an "experience".
I'm hoping this new "hybrid" NSX will be geared more toward the latter.:biggrin:
 
In a Prius it IS a task... LOL... But then it is in most cars. It's no more boring to me than most typical sedans or hatchbacks short of the real sports ones like GTI's or Mazdaspeeds. I have fun trying to squeeze more MPG out of it. I take racing lines and squeal the tires around corners to keep my momentum up... then ease into the throttle the same way as if I was worried about breaking the rear loose on the track exiting the turn... Then as the CVT is revving I glance over at my gauges just as I do on the track except instead of IAT's I'm checking MPG's. Meter reads 47.5 still, I'm good. Yeehaw... I draft 18 wheelers and ride that vacuum to the tune of an extra 2 MPG's. I make sure there isn't too much fat in the car weighing me down, and I almost put an eibach suspension on my ex girlfriend's Prius without her knowing. I drift and draft baby, all the way past all the gas stations.

Sometimes as a man, you do what you gotta do.
 
In a Prius it IS a task... LOL... But then it is in most cars. It's no more boring to me than most typical sedans or hatchbacks short of the real sports ones like GTI's or Mazdaspeeds. I have fun trying to squeeze more MPG out of it. I take racing lines and squeal the tires around corners to keep my momentum up... then ease into the throttle the same way as if I was worried about breaking the rear loose on the track exiting the turn... Then as the CVT is revving I glance over at my gauges just as I do on the track except instead of IAT's I'm checking MPG's. Meter reads 47.5 still, I'm good. Yeehaw... I draft 18 wheelers and ride that vacuum to the tune of an extra 2 MPG's. I make sure there isn't too much fat in the car weighing me down, and I almost put an eibach suspension on my ex girlfriend's Prius without her knowing. I drift and draft baby, all the way past all the gas stations.

Sometimes as a man, you do what you gotta do.

I laugh when I see men in Priuses.

Maybe this is why. :wink:
 
Very few ever get the max advertised mileage per gallon on any vehicles they buy. If this lady lives in S. Cal and drives from Riverside to LA during traffic hour, she will never get 50, or even 40 mpg.

This is just another way to get cash out of big companies. Just imagine people sues GM for their newly purchased Chevy Volt, or Toyota for Prius because of the episode of Top Gear they watched.


Good luck to both sides.
 
If this lady lives in S. Cal and drives from Riverside to LA during traffic hour, she will never get 50, or even 40 mpg.

The Prius gets significantly better gas mileage in city and stop and go driving then long highway runs. (51 City / 48 Hwy) It's made for stop and go driving because it can actually utilize the batteries more effectively. Stop and go traffic is actually better for gas mileage for a Prius because when idle the car consumes no gas and speeds less than 35 mph is optimal for the Prius and fuel efficiency.
 
Looks like she won.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46228337/ns/business-autos/

LOS ANGELES — The Southern California owner of a Honda hybrid car won her unusual small-claims court lawsuit against the automaker over the vehicle's failure to deliver its stated fuel economy.

Los Angeles Superior Court Commissioner Douglas Carnahan awarded Heather Peters $9,867 on Wednesday, saying Honda did mislead her about the expected mileage.

"At a bare minimum Honda was aware ... that by the time Peters bought her car there were problems with its living up to its advertised mileage," he wrote in the judgment.

Peters opted out of a class-action lawsuit so she could try to claim a higher payment for the failure of her Civic to deliver the 50 miles per gallon that was promised when she bought it.

Informed of the decision by The Associated Press, Peters exulted, "Wow! Fantastic."

"I am absolutely thrilled. Sometimes big justice comes in small packages," she said. "This is a victory for Honda Civic owners everywhere."

Honda hadn't seen the decision Wednesday afternoon but planned to issue a statement after it was reviewed, said spokesman Chris Martin.

Peters, a former lawyer, hoped to inspire a flood of lawsuits by the other 200,000 owners of the Hybrid Honda Civic model sold in 2006. She said that if all 200,000 owners of the cars sued and won in small claims cost, it could Honda Motor Co. $2 billion.

She launched a website, DontSettleWithHonda.org, and said she was contacted by hundreds of other car owners seeking guidance in how to file small claims suits if they opted out of a class-action case already filed.

The upside of small claims court is that there are no attorneys' fees and cases are decided quickly. Individual payments are far greater than in class-action cases.

Honda's proposed class-action settlement would give aggrieved owners $100 to $200 each and a $1,000 credit toward the purchase of a new car. Legal fees in the class action case would give trial lawyers $8.5 million, Peters said.

Legal experts had said it was unlikely that all owners would take the small claims route because of the time and energy involved in pursuing such lawsuits. But it was a unique approach that could have an impact.

Carnahan held two hearings on the claim in January.

Peters claimed her he car never came close to the promised 50 mpg and that it got no more than 30 miles per gallon when the battery began deteriorating. She still owns the car and wanted to be compensated for money lost on gas, as well as punitive damages, amounting to $10,000.

A Honda technical expert who testified at an earlier hearing said the company was required by federal law to post the sticker estimating the highest mileage the car could get. But he said the mileage varied on how the car was driven. The company said Peters was not deceived.

A judge in San Diego County is due to rule in March on whether to approve Honda's class-action settlement. Members of the class have until Feb. 11 to accept or decline the deal.

Small claims courts generally handle private disputes that do not involve large amounts of money. In many states, that means small debts, quarrels between tenants and landlords and contract disagreements. Attorneys aren't usually there; in California, litigants aren't allowed to have lawyers argue their case.

The limit for small claims damages in California is $10,000. In other states it ranges from $2,500 to $15,000.
 
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Taking place in an executive office somewhere in Japan as we speak:

"We could be on the hook for $2,000,000,000.00 if everybody who owns a Civic Hybrid takes us to small claims court in America"

"Oh well (looking at the NSX prototype). Looks like the NSX will have to wait until 2020."



:frown::frown::frown::frown::frown::frown::frown::frown:
 
I agree that the car did not perform like advertised but
they put that depending on driver habits to protect Honda.

thats one thing about america that makes me mad
just sue. we teach our kids if you dont like something sue them.

if you dont like what an elected official has done sue them.

if you get burned by a cup of coffee sue the person that sold it to you.

if you cut your arm off with a gas powered chain saw sue the person that sold it to you and if you dont win sue the person that built it, still nothing
sue the government for printing the paper cash you used to buy the said chainsaw.

it makes you sick thinking about it.

MAN-UP oh well I got 32 mpg not 40 uuuuuuhhhhhhhaaaaaaaa
big deal. quit eating at Mcdonalds loss the weight and then you my increase the mpg to 36mpg and instead of putting 500lbs of Lawyer/client boxes of legal paper and files in the trunk and BAMMMM your getting 46mpg, WOW. problem solved.

Should I sue the DMV since I can't drive my NSX at full speed since the DMV will not allow me to go over 70? and my car is more than able to reach top speed? should i sue?
 
Should I sue the DMV since I can't drive my NSX at full speed since the DMV will not allow me to go over 70? and my car is more than able to reach top speed? should i sue?

Yes. Sue them all. I actually think you should sue all the car companies who make a car that makes you break the law. If you couldn't buy a car that goes over the speed limit to begin with, you'd never get a ticket. Go for it buddy!!! Then you can start rebuilding wrecked Bugatti's with all the cash you'd have for winning the laesuits. :biggrin:
 
People in this country can sue anything for everything and those hungry lawyers would love to have those cases.

http://autos.aol.com/article/honda-...=maing-grid7|main5|dl10|sec1_lnk2&pLid=124496

Sounds like a totally reasonable lawsuit to me.

It's pretty common for manufacturers to misrepresent product claims. That's the whole point of the FTC and the Lanham Act. And we allow these lawsuits so that consumers aren't misled by bad practicers.

If people aren't getting the claimed MPG under ordinary and reasonable driving circumstances, or if they weren't warned about extraordinary deteriorating performance over time, then the plaintiffs have a perfectly reasonable lawsuit.

I definitely agree that there are many frivolous lawsuits, and many arbitrary and capricious laws out there, but this case is fine imo. Many people buy their cars for many different types of claims (e.g. horsepower, torque, towing capacity, safety, etc.). MPG should be no different, especially for hybrid cars wherein consumers are being precisely to save on gas.

And yes, you would be pissed if your NSX only got 270 HP vs. the claimed 290. Whether you sue or not is up to you, but it's RIGHT to allow these types of lawsuits to keep businesses honest. You are aware that many businesses intentionally tweak their numbers or claims to mislead consumers right?
 
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