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Boost leak question

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17 June 2009
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I emailed Will, but maybe i could get more inputs from everyone else.

Ok, I will try to sum it up. Months ago I was making a crazy 440 Whp.... Now I'm at 385. Bisi the tuner said since I was at 9 now 6 ish I have a leak. And with each pull the boost dropped like .2 psi (prob from heat). So he told me to scrap the worm clamps and get t clamps. I did. I put those on, zip tied all my boost lines for turbo, even swaped bov, nothing, still at 6 psi. Now, is this possible. Wil's kit has a 5 pound spring. I wanted more and bought a xs boost controller. On my first Dyno pulls, I was at 9 psi, yet the controller was basically screwed closed. Odd right. So Bisi tunes car month later. Still 9 psi though I didn't boost much inbetween. Now it's hotter so that plays a role but it's at 6 psi. Does anyone think it's possible the boost controller may have had a stiff or stuck spring but after heating it up and use it broke free and now doing as it should..... Closed so basically on the stock waste gate spring at 5-6 psi? I didnt want to mess too much with it but I did unscrew it half a turn from sealed closed and it gets to 6 psi fast, near redline 7 psi. wonder if it's working now. What's everyone's opinion. Keeping in mind on my 9 psi first pulls the controller was completely closed yet making 9 psi when it should have been between 5-6 psi like now.
 
I doubt that you have a boost leak. What turbo charger are you running I would check to make sure that the turbos compressor wheel still looks ok and that shaft play is ok. I have seen waste gates that will stick open slightly over the years I would look into that as well. Is the car intercooled if so You may have a weld that has split on one of the tanks. The best way to find a leak if this is the case is to hook a smoke machine up to the entire boost track and see where it comes out.
 
It's your xs boost controller. Call the manufacturer and inquire about your problem. Maybe it's time to upgrade to an electronic boost controller.
 
Remove boost controller change spring to 8lb spring and see if boost follows the spring, if it does your boost controller is bad. Leave the 8lb springs in place you should make 420-440whp on 8lb spring and you will not need the boost controller. Sometimes simple is better, do you really need to adust from 385whp to 440whp. You can always adjust your power with your right foot.

Dave
 
I'm trying to understand the order of things here.

(dyno day one) Start tuning car makes 9psi and 440whp on the 5psi spring with no boost controller. This is unusual and could be boost creep.
(dyno day two) You go back for a retune and the car is making 385whp and 6psi with the probable cause suspected to be a boost leak.
You change parts and they have no effect(worm clamps are junk anyway so that's a good upgrade regardless).

(dyno day three)Install boost controller and it is making 9psi on your first dyno pulls
You had the boost controller all the way closed on your first pulls?
(dyno day four??)Bisi tunes the car month later at 9psi Car again drops to 6psi on dyno or shortly after on the street.

The directions are a little unusual for setting up the turbo xs boost controller, but I've used dozens of these things without a hiccup. There isn't much to fail in these little things. You should always start at the full open position and slowly increase the boost to desired levels.

To setup the boost controller you need to back off the adjuster(s) until you hear/feel the ball inside shake around, and then slowly adjust in until you are on the point of it stopping and then install it. This is the position that should provide close to no additional boost. You would adjust slowly up from there to desired boost level.

Also make sure you are plumbing it properly. It should be plumbed to the side/bottom port not the top "hat" of the wastegate. Pictures would help here. Changing to the 9lb spring like DDozier said would eliminate the boost controller from the equation too.
 
Ok dyno 1 was almost 10 psi, we completely closed it off and still at 9 psi.
Dyno 2 still using controller, made 9 psi again fully closed
Dyno 3, now at 5.5-6 psi still fully closed.

Dyno 1&2 were a month apart,dyno 3 was 4 months and much driving.

I cracked it a half turn and hit 7 psi last night. Wondering if it is just the spring was stuck open. 9 psi seems like a lot for a closed controller. The 8 lb spring seems like a good idea. Is it hard to put on? I'm tempted to crack it a full turn and c if I hit 9 psi again.

And don't u mean full closed position. At first dyno since they thought it was broke closed at 9 they fully opened it and shut dyno down since I hit 9 psi at 5 k lol.

Thanks for all the responses guys. I didn't think I was leaking. Just thought the controller was the culprit..... Though if it is the turbo, how would I tell? Like I said I hit 7 after cracking it last night so something is working.

I'm trying to understand the order of things here.

(dyno day one) Start tuning car makes 9psi and 440whp on the 5psi spring with no boost controller. This is unusual and could be boost creep.
(dyno day two) You go back for a retune and the car is making 385whp and 6psi with the probable cause suspected to be a boost leak.
You change parts and they have no effect(worm clamps are junk anyway so that's a good upgrade regardless).

(dyno day three)Install boost controller and it is making 9psi on your first dyno pulls
You had the boost controller all the way closed on your first pulls?
(dyno day four??)Bisi tunes the car month later at 9psi Car again drops to 6psi on dyno or shortly after on the street.

The directions are a little unusual for setting up the turbo xs boost controller, but I've used dozens of these things without a hiccup. There isn't much to fail in these little things. You should always start at the full open position and slowly increase the boost to desired levels.

To setup the boost controller you need to back off the adjuster(s) until you hear/feel the ball inside shake around, and then slowly adjust in until you are on the point of it stopping and then install it. This is the position that should provide close to no additional boost. You would adjust slowly up from there to desired boost level.

Also make sure you are plumbing it properly. It should be plumbed to the side/bottom port not the top "hat" of the wastegate. Pictures would help here. Changing to the 9lb spring like DDozier said would eliminate the boost controller from the equation too.
 
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Ok dyno 1 was almost 10 psi, we completely closed it off and still at 9 psi.
Dyno 2 still using controller, made 9 psi again fully closed
Dyno 3, now at 5.5-6 psi still fully closed.

Dyno 1&2 were a month apart,dyno 3 was 4 months and much driving.

I cracked it a half turn and hit 7 psi last night. Wondering if it is just the spring was stuck open. 9 psi seems like a lot for a closed controller. The 8 lb spring seems like a good idea. Is it hard to put on? I'm tempted to crack it a full turn and c if I hit 9 psi again.

And don't u mean full closed position. At first dyno since they thought it was broke closed at 9 they fully opened it and shut dyno down since I hit 9 psi at 5 k lol.

Thanks for all the responses guys. I didn't think I was leaking. Just thought the controller was the culprit..... Though if it is the turbo, how would I tell? Like I said I hit 7 after cracking it last night so something is working.

By "open" I mean it allows all the pressure through and the wastegate should open at the spring pressure. "closing" the boost controller would raise the pressure required to get through the boost controller. Not sure exactly which model you are using, I have always used the high performance single stage and the allen wrench is clockwise to reduce boost and counterclockwise to raise boost.
 
Ok dyno 1 was almost 10 psi, we completely closed it off and still at 9 psi.
Dyno 2 still using controller, made 9 psi again fully closed
Dyno 3, now at 5.5-6 psi still fully closed.

Dyno 1&2 were a month apart,dyno 3 was 4 months and much driving.

I cracked it a half turn and hit 7 psi last night. Wondering if it is just the spring was stuck open. 9 psi seems like a lot for a closed controller. The 8 lb spring seems like a good idea. Is it hard to put on? I'm tempted to crack it a full turn and c if I hit 9 psi again.

And don't u mean full closed position. At first dyno since they thought it was broke closed at 9 they fully opened it and shut dyno down since I hit 9 psi at 5 k lol.

Thanks for all the responses guys. I didn't think I was leaking. Just thought the controller was the culprit..... Though if it is the turbo, how would I tell? Like I said I hit 7 after cracking it last night so something is working.

Another question, so the boost controller was always in the car? The original post insinuated that you installed it after the fact.
 
Yes, always connected. It's under the car since I didn't run the lines into the car. And its just the cheaper $60 one. I had it turned fully - and it was at 9psi first 2 dynos. Now it's still fully closed at 6 psi. So I turned it half a turn + and the boost went to 7psi. I'm thinking the unit in fact wasn't functioning like it should at first. I remember initially turning it and hearing what sounded like the spring was twisting inside it, like it turned smooth then got to a point where it sounded like spring was compressed and spinning. Hard to describe. That's why I'm thinking all the heat and use opened it up and named the spring work so now it's back to 6 psi. I'm gona turn it another half turn this weekend and see if it gets to 8 psi.
 
Okkkkkk. More progress. Need more opinions
1. Does anyone know what wastegate the apx kit has? Is it adjustable?
2. This is my reasoning. Checked all fittings, hoses ect. Didn't do a boost test butttt this is what I did do. Like I said initial Dyno 9 psi. At first I thought too high so we took off boost controller. Then car was only at 3-4 psi. So mbc added about 4-5 psi. Now with mbc it's at 6. So I thought I'd test the mbc, took it off and car holds at only 2 psi! So with it 6 psi, without 2 psi, again, about a 4 psi difference. I asked if it was adjustable or does this sound like a failing wastegate. Thanks so much guys for your knowledge. Shit is frustrating me.....
 
I run tial wg but I believe wils kit usually comes with 3 psi spring. Best way I would do is take the wg off and bench test see what psi the wg start open. I hate guessing when it comes to this stuff
 
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So then you can't adjust the preload on wills? It's just 3 pounds or nothing? Either way I was hitting 6 psi before, now 2 without it. I know wills spring isn't a 2 lb spring.
 
So then you can't adjust the preload on wills? It's just 3 pounds or nothing? Either way I was hitting 6 psi before, now 2 without it. I know wills spring isn't a 2 lb spring.


No adjust preload, just whatever psi spring u run. Have u ever run it without mbc before? Or u always have mbc connected from day one. To me it sound more like something wrong with the mbc. How u connect mbc? To top or middle port?
 
Ok, I think I need to do a boost leak test. I turned up the mbc 2 whole turns, still only got to about 6-7. With all the clamps but 1 new t bolts (stripped screw on one clamp), all the hoses looking good, the turbo still spoiling, I'm leaning to there may be a crack in the intercooler. Seems I'm going to have to make something to do a boost test. Unless there is some super fine rip in a hose, I think the intercooler must have a crack. There are some black spots on the back of it in the corners and down the sides. The turbo does have oil in the charge pipe, (which Wil tells me is normal....) so I wonder if that dark stuff on the intercooler is oil that has gotten out........

And doc, I disconnected it, only got to 2 psi. I think even at wot at only 2 lbs, its leaking somewhere under any boost. It held at 2 but it should be at least at 3 psi. Like I said, I think the intercooler may be cracked. Anyone heard from Wil lately? Been emailing him with no response. If the intercooler is cracked I gotta get a new one......
 
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1. Does anyone know what wastegate the apx kit has? Is it adjustable?
...

To answer your question....From following the thread... Will uses a proprietary WG made specifically for the nsx instead of a name brand like tial or turbosmart... the original turbo was also specifically designed for the nsx... for some reason i hear he is changing his turbo...

^^^^ the above statements were made by will and in no way are they reality for many reasons...



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Hybridtheory911 is your best friend right now... if you were a fisherman 2000 years ago... Hybridtheory911 would be a guy who walks up to you and you drop your net in the water... clock out... quit your job leaving behind your 401k and healthcare benefits and follow him with 11 other former employees...

Hybridtheory911 has a unique skill... he can help you without losing his mind over all the noise this stuff generates... I would help but since the son of the turbo god is willing and able... why blow my lid with all the noise.

Lets just hope something bad doesn’t happen to Hybridtheory911 forcing you to write a long book and hide it in the mountains for it to be discovered after the English language is no longer used and the finders of your book don’t have to attempt to translate your experiences with Hybridtheory911 in a language no longer spoken.

It would suck if in 1500 years someone got this data and it said – “we checked and there was no boost... then Hybridtheory911 said "let there be boost" and by a miracle you were rocking 9lbs and making 440 to the wheel.”

Long story short...It could be many things (boost leak which can be anywhere in the system, xs controller, crack in the IC, very low pulse widths (ie. at idle) lol ) but there is a reason everything is rated at a psi level... when all the numbers don’t match = problem... This is kinda easy to figure out when you give h911 all the data he requested (make n model numbers with pics)

Word
 
Thanks for the encouragement. I made a home made boost leak test but bought the wrong size PVC to pressurize the system from the manifold back but was able to do the charge pipe to intercooler. Found an air leak on the lower ic pipe coupler. 2 bad clamps as well. There was oil all in pipe, even a small amount by intake (normal?) I think oil from turbo got into the coupler and loosened the rubber. I don't think the ic was leaking. The pressure stayed at least to 12 psi, when at first it would hiss as you heard the air getting out. We'll c what happens tomorrow. Dropping car off to get bumper reprinted. Took off mbc just in case anyone decides to drive the car it won't go past 3 psi.
 
Thanks for the encouragement. I made a home made boost leak test but bought the wrong size PVC to pressurize the system from the manifold back but was able to do the charge pipe to intercooler. Found an air leak on the lower ic pipe coupler. 2 bad clamps as well. There was oil all in pipe, even a small amount by intake (normal?) I think oil from turbo got into the coupler and loosened the rubber. I don't think the ic was leaking. The pressure stayed at least to 12 psi, when at first it would hiss as you heard the air getting out. We'll c what happens tomorrow. Dropping car off to get bumper reprinted. Took off mbc just in case anyone decides to drive the car it won't go past 3 psi.

Worm clamps? Was that what Angus included with the kit? I've sold dozens maybe hundreds of turbo kits and not once have I ever included a worm clamp for charge piping. These are typical Honda civic/integra and nissan kits, not a kit for an exotic sports car. Ranging from as low as $2800 and up to $6k+ all included T bolt clamps.

I like Angus' platform and his effort to keep the price reasonable compared to other manufacturers, but even still for $5800 in would expect more than what he is offering. I even built a kit similar to what he offers. I know he pictures T bolt clamps, I hope that is what he ships them with. For his price point I would also expect a Tial Wastegate and BOV standard, 4 ply couplers with quality T bolt clamps, as well as a top name brand turbocharger standard. I would also expect some disclosure in what I'm getting with my kit. No brand name or specs on his "custom" T67 turbocharger, no name brand wastegate? Size of a2a intercooler and brand of the core? What model scavenge pump? Without knowing those things an educated performance enthusiast won't really want to invest in the kit.
 
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I see your point. No denying what you say. No tbolt clamps, (though one leak came from a t clamp that must have stripped the screw to not tighten more so the worm clamp is holding fine for now). But it's not always about the parts. He supplies a bov and wastegate, yes. In all honesty sometimes it's better to take a lesser quality product with warranty and customer service than something else. Am I satisfied with his kit....at times yes, others like now no. But I figure all the stuff I need to improve his stuff, is already there. His welds are great and figment as well. I don't think he would offer lifetime warranty on a turbo hoping they don't fail every 5k, that's just bad business. I had the tuner Bisi offer me a custom turbo for a great deal (won't say price here) but some kind of ball bearing twin scroll what ever. The inter cooler as long as it doesn't leak is fine really. So piping good, welds good, bov good, inter cooler ok. Now I don't know the turbo (hope not a cheap eBay one) or using worms are good, but for 40 bucks I can get t clamps and worst case custom turbo and still pay less than other kits. Even the turbo he offers higher end ones. All I want is my 9 psi I once had. If in fact there's shaft play he already agreed to a new one. He a good guy, I haven't bothered to ask but he probably would just pay the turbo amount and I pay rest for the custom one if I ran that by him. So yeah, other than the turbo and wastegate unknown, I think for the 2-3k saved its worth it. I can replace the turbo with a perscision one from Hks, can't get the pipes though. I definetly agree, maybe if Will reads this he can chime in as to what wastegate and turbo it is. Would at least be cool to know.

Back to point, I hopefully get the car back Friday and will see if I put the Mbc on if I get to 8 psi like before. If that fails one last smoke test will tell if no leaks, turbo is going. But again, Will has so far responded to me and assured me he will provide what is necessary to make everything run at efficiency like it should.

Worm clamps? Was that what Angus included with the kit? I've sold dozens maybe hundreds of turbo kits and not once have I ever included a worm clamp for charge piping. These are typical Honda civic/integra and nissan kits, not a kit for an exotic sports car. Ranging from as low as $2800 and up to $6k+ all included T bolt clamps.

I like Angus' platform and his effort to keep the price reasonable compared to other manufacturers, but even still for $5800 in would expect more than what he is offering. I even built a kit similar to what he offers. I know he pictures T bolt clamps, I hope that is what he ships them with. For his price point I would also expect a Tial Wastegate and BOV standard, 4 ply couplers with quality T bolt clamps, as well as a top name brand turbocharger standard. I would also expect some disclosure in what I'm getting with my kit. No brand name or specs on his "custom" T67 turbocharger, no name brand wastegate? Size of a2a intercooler and brand of the core? What model scavenge pump? Without knowing those things an educated performance enthusiast won't really want to invest in the kit.
 
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.
1)I don't think he would offer lifetime warranty on a turbo hoping they don't fail every 5k, that's just bad business.
2)I had the tuner Bisi offer me a custom turbo for a great deal (won't say price here) but some kind of ball bearing twin scroll what ever.
3) (hope not a cheap eBay one) .

1) & 3) - after garrett, precision, hks and borg warner... I think ebay is the only one left on the list unfortunately

2) There is only one other man alive I would rather have tune my car than bisi. bisi is also on a very short list of people that would give you advice worth following ahead of H911 here... funny.. what they advise would most likely be the same

if bisi told me to hold a cup of water and stand on 1 leg outside while he's tuning... I’d say... how many ounces of water

let bisi know that your current y-pipe is open and your turbo is divided... (meaning you have a journal bearing twin scroll all ready)... it would probably answer some questions in his mind...

He is more than likely trying to upgrade yours to a ball bearing since he's tuning the car and has to deal with the flow issues... the above statement will help bisi understand his tune better

and I am not referring to customer service or if will is a good guy or not... I’m sure he is above par on both...

but you’re asking prime not will right now... our answers are hardware related... your car would be safer long-term and perform way better if your components were better.

Word
 
If u talk about value, wils kit still a best bang for bucks( including bbsc)for average joe that want 400whp or even 450 whp, unless someone can come on here and knock on his price and his customer service is a big plus. Thats a big reason why a lot of guys in here choose to go with his kit. No he doesnt have a best kit out but still a cheapest way to get 400 whp. And for for no brand turbo in his kit, there's no sign that anything wrong with my turbo after almost 3 years and more than 18xxx miles later. I had a chance to get used 6262 precision turbo ( 4 pulls on Dyno) from my friend for 650 but I pass cause this turbo doesn't bother me why spend money to fix it. My 0.02 cents
 
If u talk about value, wils kit still a best bang for bucks( including bbsc)for average joe that want 400whp or even 450 whp,

But supersonics thread doesn’t say "turbo kit value problem"

so you take my post personally because I state the truth... the kit comes with a twin-scroll no brand turbo and an open y-pipe...

for those that don’t understand that.. its like having an American socket set and removing metric bolts... its not that a 9/16th's wont remove a 14mm bolt... it will.... But you can’t tell people its a 9/16's bolt... its the wrong application but it will work

Bisi didn’t tell the OP - "you paid too much for your kit... heres a smoking deal on a ball bearing turbo"

my guess... while tuning the car... he was having issues and with a big as journal bearing no brand turbo... he wanted the client to upgrade it without saying "the turbo on your car is garbage... there is performance left on the table"

when you have issues like the OP's... you have to question the components... we are stating fact and giving advice... no one has mentioned a ripoff or will being scandalous


I had a chance to get used 6262 precision turbo ( 4 pulls on Dyno) from my friend for 650 but I pass cause this turbo doesn't bother me why spend money to fix it. My 0.02 cents

good pass on the 6262 as well... you dont need a turbo rated for 700 hp if your goal is 400

http://www.precisionturbo.net/Stree...treet-and-Race-Turbocharger---PT6262-CEA®/245

Hybridtheory911 spent the time to explain his knowledge in flow charts and turbo sizing here...

http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1390272&postcount=8

Why no one wants to see the data is beyond me... I guess its the classic.. "I can listen to Jimi but i cant hear Jimi" of the nsx turbo world

Word
 
How the hell u know my goal is 400 whp now? Thats 3 years ago goal for me not now. Stop guessing what people thinking. Why buy bbsc for ur car then switch to turbo? And why the hell u put k20 in nsx? Cause it makes sense to u at the time
 
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