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Brake pad life left.

Joined
6 October 2000
Messages
139
I looked in the Faq. and couldn't find out how many kilometers I might expect my OEM brakes to last. They have 5mm rear and a little more in the front or the reverse, one is at 5mm. The car has 43,500 kilometers.
I think the dealer would have changed the pads if he had any in stock, they said change them in the spring. Only a few more driving days left here.
 
The service interval for the pads is 1.7mm. I believe new OEM pads have about 11mm of pad material. Sounds to me like you may have a few more years of average street driving before you need to change the pads. The OEM pads do have wear indicators that squeak when the pads wear to their service limit so if you want, you can drive until you hear the wear tabs squeak against the rotors…or you can change them in the Spring <G>.
Or you can do what I do, which is drive em until sparks fly !!
biglaugha.gif


DanO


[This message has been edited by DanO (edited 18 November 2001).]
 
Originally posted by nsxtasy:
I believe the front pads have 11 mm of pad material when new, the rear ones have 9 mm.


For the NSX:

FRONT OEM PAD
PAD NUMBER: D503
TOTAL THICKNESS: 0.681" / 17.3mm
PAD MATERIAL THICKNESS: 0.425" / 10.8mm

REAR OEM PAD
PAD NUMBER: D504
TOTAL THICKNESS: 0.595" / 15.1mm
PAD MATERIAL THICKNESS: 0.359" / 9.1mm


For am integrally molded pad, you should replace the pads when they reach a minimum thickness of 4.7mm or around 3/16". The reason is that as the pad wears, the wear rate accelerates due to less efficient dissipation of heat, whereby the interface between the pad material and the rotor develops very high susptained temperatures. A bonded and riveted pad can be worn down to 1/8" or 3.1mm safety, while providing save performance. Pad wear follows a geometric scale, and is not linear. For example, if you were able to drive 100 track miles and only wear down 3mm of the pad, this does NOT mean that if you drive another 100 track miles thereafter, that you will only wear down 3mm...you will probably wear down 4mm to 5mm, since wear accelerates as the pad becomes thinner.

With Best Regards,

Andie Lin
1995 Black/Black NSX-T

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I think we need to differentiate between track and mild street use here.

Certainly if you are going to do some serious driving at the track you would want to replace them soon, but for mild street use there is no reason to replace them yet.

If someone has 43.5km on their original OEM pads and they are not taking the car to the track, I cannot imagine any reason to replace pads before they are under 2mm.

Which means, with continued mild street use, these pads should probably last at least another 15km-20km.
 
Andie, I'm confused by your statement "The reason is that as the pad wears, the wear rate accelerates due to less efficient dissipation of heat, whereby the interface between the pad material and the rotor develops very high susptained temperatures." I would expect a thinner pad to cool better as the pad material is not as good of a heat conductor as the metal backing. So the closer you are to metal, the cooler the pad material should run. If my logic is wrong, please explain why.

Fritz
 
The pad takes quite a bit of heat away from the rotor, as it is in contact with the rotor. Thus, the pad is truly a heat sink for the rotor (as the caliper is a heat sink for the pad). If you have less pad material present, there are fewer molecules to absorb the heat generating under braking...and if the resultant heat exceeds or even approaches the maximum design temperature of the pad compound, it will wear significantly faster.

Andie

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I share Fritz's confusion.

Aren't brake pads usually made mostly of asbestos, an excellent insulator; i.e., a poor conductor of heat? If so, I would think that a thick pad would retain heat since it could not dissipate heat by conducting it to the metal backing very well.

And, as Fritz says, a highly heated thin pad would conduct "more" of the heat to the metal backing than a thick one.

So how does the thick pad become cooler than a thin one? If it does not become cooler by tranferring heat to either the disk rotor, the caliper or the brake cylinder piston, then how else can it be cooler than the thin pad?

anvil
 
You don't want the pads to conduct heat to anything, you want them to insulate. That is why thinner pads mean trouble at the track; less insulation. Transferring heat through the pads to the backing plate, etc. is what boils your brake fluid. Too much heat in the pad will cook the pad (on most pads). The pads serve two purposes: 1) Friction surface 2) Insulation for the rest of the braking system (calipers, fluid, etc.)

Sure pads can also hold some head, but the difference in mass between say 9mm and 6mm on a set of brake pads is minimal compared to the mass of the rotor, which is where you really want the heat. Well actually you want the heat to go into the air, but the rotor is where you store it until it can transfer to the air. Rotors serve two functions: 1) Friction surface 2) Heatsink

[This message has been edited by Lud (edited 28 November 2001).]
 
Abestos has not been used for a long time in brake pads, because of political bullsh*t. While abestos was shown to be carcinogenic when used for building insulation, it was not carcinogenic when used for brake pads, because the shape of the particles are different - but alas, this is a different discussion altogether.

Abestos was replaced by carbon...and most pads nowadays are carbon-metallic compounds. Carbotech Panther Plus and Panther XP pads are ceramic based. We have replaced approximately 90% of the carbon typically found in a pad with ceramic. The main benefits of doing so is that high carbon content pads will forms carbides on the pad surface, and the carbides are very rotor aggressive. Ceramic, on the other hand, does not form carbides, as it is very stable and inert. The high ceramic content of our pads allows them to withstand a high level of heat without changing chemical composition, both on the interface surface and within the pad material itself. We have found in testing that when using our ceramic based compounds, rotors run COOLER by 10-15%. The heat is being retained in the pad compound, and then dissipated through the caliper and surrounding atmosphere. Thus, if there is MORE pad material present, the pad is more able to absorb heat and dissipate it out the edges of the pad. As the pad wears, the surface area of the pad around the edges is decreased.

Further, brake pads produce braking torque via two main methods: (1) chemical interaction and (2) abrasive qualities. Without getting into a lengthy discussion on this, I'll just point out one example. When you overexceed the upper temperature limit of a specific pad, it will fade. And in order to get the car to stop, you have to press harder on the pedal, and thus mash the pad into the rotor with more force. In this way, you will obtain stopping power, but with the abrasive qualities of the pads, and not by any chemical interaction. Does this make any sense to anyone here?

Heat moves from the rotor/pad interface TO the pad, TO the backing plate, TO the pistons and caliper, TO the brake fluid, and then TO the atmosphere. As an aside, this is why you should discharge air from cooling ducts to the CALIPER and NOT the rotor. The rotor will cool itself as long as it is spinning - most rotors are internally vaned. The caliper is a heat-sink for the brake pad, and you MUST cool the caliper if you want to efficiently dissipate heat that is in the pad, and keep your fluid from boiling.

Another aside. Heat _IS_ stored in the pad material...this is a fact. The rotor cools much more efficiently because it is much more mass and surface area, and is always moving. The pad, on the other hand, is much smaller and has far less surface area. For those who dispute the level of heat a pad endures, let me just say that I have personally pulled brake pads out of IT-class race cars at various tracks to measure thickness (wear rate) after ever test session run, and these pads are 800degF+ when measured with a pyrometer, and wear rate IS accelerated on a geometric scale as the pad wears down. The backing plate is cold-rolled steel, and after a few minutes of hard driving it will heat up to the same temperature as the pad itself, with only a slight time lag. The key to everything here is SURFACE AREA. Pistons are made hollow like cups so that the amount of surface area contacting the backing plate of the pad is kept to a minimum. The additional surface area on the "inside of the cup/piston" is there to provide additional cooling. You will find calipers and drums that have fins on them to increase the surface area for cooling - similar to the heat sink on a computer CPU. Rotors have a higher effective thermal emissivity than the pad and caliper, as it is always moving. The pad is stationary, as mentioned before (along with the caliper), so the effective thermal emissivity is far lower for the pad, and it will retain/store heat after it is retracted from the rotor (i.e. you release the brake pedal)...after which it begins to cool. Upon a subsequent brake pedal application, it will heat up again. So long as you keep the maximum temperature reached within the design limits of the pad compound, it will continue to perform well. However, as the pad becomes thinner, there is less edge surface area, so it cools at a rate more similar to the backing plate, which has very low effective thermal emissivity...and it stays hot...and you can more readily exceed the design temperature limit of the pad, and wear accelerates.

Small changes can make a big difference. For example, if you slot a pad, it will last longer, because even the added surface area along the edges from the slotting allows the pad material to dissipate heat faster.

Andie

[This message has been edited by HomeDepotNSX (edited 28 November 2001).]
 
Andie,

Thanks for the update on materials.

If I understand you about the way the pad handles heat, then heat is transfered through the metal backing to the caliper or the brake piston or else it is radiated from the edge of the pad material itself. Wear increases as pads become worn because the radiating area provided by the edge of the abrasive pad material is decreased, leading to a pad temperature exceeding material tolerances.

Wouldn't an increase in the radiating capability of the metal backing plate reduce the pad wear rates as the pad thickness decreases? For instance, if a thin metal fin were attached around the periphery of the pad, would that not compensate for the lost pad radiation surface and hence lower pad temps?

If this analysis seems okay, then does anyone make use of this avenue to reduce wear rates?

anvil
 
Originally posted by anvil:

Wouldn't an increase in the radiating capability of the metal backing plate reduce the pad wear rates as the pad thickness decreases? For instance, if a thin metal fin were attached around the periphery of the pad, would that not compensate for the lost pad radiation surface and hence lower pad temps?

If this analysis seems okay, then does anyone make use of this avenue to reduce wear rates?


They key here is that the pad more easily exceeds, albeit momentarily when the brakes are applied, it's design temperature as the pad is worn thinner.

As for dissipating/radiating heat off the brake pad...keep in mind that cold-rolled steel (all iron alloys) retain heat quite well...it takes a while to heat it up (relative to, say aluminum), but it also retains the heat. Most heat sinks are made of aluminum...race calipers are billet aluminum for the most part, while race pistons are titanium, because titanium is more difficult to heat up. Anyhow...yes...we've seen some racing applications where aluminum plates (fins if you want to call them that) are attached to the edges of the backing plate, where possible, and also to the caliper...but this is not a common practice because of fitments issues (e.g. you have to fit all this crap under the wheel).

Andie

------------------
andie w lin | vp marketing & product r&D
e: [email protected]
carbotech engineering
www.carbotecheng.com
 
Aside from the fitting problems with an existing brake configuration, I suppose an aluminum or an aluminum/steel sandwich backing plate for the pad would be too bulky or lacking in rigidity?

Or is it that the possible benefits are just not worth the trouble?

Forgive my speculations, ... I was bitten by an inventor bug as a child.

anvil
 
Andie, it sounds like you know your stuff on brakes. Thanks for sharing.

Perhaps you can shed some light on something that always bothers me in these discussions. Ignoring the issue of unsprung weight and weight in general, how do you know where to draw the line between the advantages and disadvantages of more mass in the rotor? As you touched on, more mass = more heatsink capacity. But as you also touched on, it means more time to shed that heat as well, especially if mass increases much faster than surface area as it would by simply increasing thickness. So, where's the optimal combination? (Probably about where most good brakes are, but are there ways to support it with theory?)

Another thing. I understand that the current high tech brakes run super hot and stop hard despite very low mass. (heat is only the enemy if pad material, rotor or fluid can't handle it.) I know the pad and rotor materials are still unobtainium, but what about the fluid?
 
We've tried different backing plate materials, including stainless steel and other alloys, and it is not cost effective. All backing plates are made with cold-rolled steel, for this reason. If you used aluminum, you'd bent it in one hard brake pedal application, and the backing plate would have to be made thicker to maintain the proper strength, which would present a fitment issue on some pad styles, and also make the pad material thinner. So you'd get a pad with less material that might not fit, and/or might break.

Andie
 
Originally posted by HomeDepotNSX:

Further, brake pads produce braking torque via two main methods: (1) chemical interaction and (2) abrasive qualities.

Can you expand on (1)?
 
I am assuming the brake technologies you are speaking of are carbon fiber discs with carbon fiber pads?

Well, these setups will brake very well, but they are intended to last one race only - the wear rate stinks. Also, they are very expensive. CF/CF setups cannot be used on the street, because while they have a ver high coefficient of friction, you won't reach that until around 800F, so track days and lapping days, you won't be able to strop your car with this type of setup. It also sucks in the wet...if the rotors or pads get wet, you have to run the brakes to dry them out.

The bottom line is, there is all this theory on brakes...and we can all understand it, but when it comes to real-world results, this is where the greater importance is. Basically, if you tell me the car you have, along with the type of driving you are doing, I can recommend the proper setup...i.e. what will and will not work, based on my experience.

Andie

------------------
andie w lin | vp marketing & product r&D
e: [email protected]
carbotech engineering
www.carbotecheng.com
 
Originally posted by Lud:
Can you expand on (1)?

It's easier to start by explain what it is NOT. The (2) is the abrasive method...basically, plain old friction, such as when you take sandpaper and rub it on a rotor...you get resistance from the friction, and all brake pads generate some of their stopping power via this method.

The most basic form of chemically-based stopping force is chemical adhesion and/or cohesion. For brake pads, the following metals are typically used in varying amounts:

IRON
STEEL
BRONZE
COPPER
BRASS
TITANIUM

Iron and steel are typically used for "bite" qualities of a race pad, bronze/copper/brass for heat uniformity. You will find that high performance street pads have a high brass and bronze content...so they heat up quickly. Whereas, race/track pads will have a much higher steel/iron content...so they require more heat to reach maximum braking torque, but have much more bite and braking torque than street pads (as an aside, as a result of the high iron/steel content, they are also much noisier).

Most rotors are made of iron or some style of steel...and the "chemical interaction" stopping power is generated by the cohesion between the similar metals in the rotor and the pad, and the adhesion between the dissimilar metals.

It may help to give an example at the extreme of the spectrum. Freight trains...they use iron-on-iron brakes...they achieve stopping power primarily via the chemical cohesion of the two similar metals on the drum and pad...called "galling". Basically, the two similar metals melt together at the interface...great stopping power, shitty modulation, but a train doesn't care about modulation, unlike an automobile.

Another thing to keep in mind about the various metals used in brake pads is that the shape of the metallic particles also plays an important role in how the pad operates. Most carbon metallic pads use iron shavings or chips, which are generally flat in shape. Our pads use steel that is spun into short threads, similar to steel wool. Since we use smaller particles which have a larger surface area per given unit of mass of that metal, our pads will heat up faster...the Panther Plus has an operating range from 150F-1300F, and the Panther XP from 200F-1450F+.

Andie

------------------
andie w lin | vp marketing & product r&D
e: [email protected]
carbotech engineering www.carbotecheng.com

[This message has been edited by HomeDepotNSX (edited 30 November 2001).]
 
Andie,

Thank you for being so patient and generous with your time and knowledge. It is this kind of exchange that makes the Internet so valuable to me.

anvil
 
Not only has Andie done a great job with explaining the physics of brakes and brake pads, but he also provides a great product too. I purchased a set of the Panther Plus pads and they are by far the best pad that I've used on my NSX. I have tried every available pad for the NSX, and the Carbotech's have provided me with the best performance and wear rate so far. I used to go through a set of pads and rotors at every event, but since I've switched to Andie's pads I've had very little pad wear and they are much more rotor friendly.

Once again, thanks for the great write up Andie.
 
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