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CEL+TCS lights on and running on 5 cyl, HELP!!

Joined
31 May 2006
Messages
786
Location
Hazerswoude, The Netherlands
Today I suddenly have a problem with my '98 CTSC

Description: when gooing through a right corner in 3rd gear, in the corner I started to accellerate almost full throttle full boost and suddenly the engine lost some power, a bit rough and both CEL and right after this TCS warning lights came on and stayed on.
The engine was running on 5 cilinders.

I stopped, turned off the ignition, waited a short while and started again: engine running on 5 cil, CEL on, TCS off, revved a bit and TCS came on again, turned ignition off again.

Inspected the engine bay for a few minutes, couldn't see anything wrong and no funny smells, so started engine again: CEL still on, TSC off and engine running bit rough but 6 cil again. Disconnected the battery, connected again, started the engine and all was OK, running normal and no lights, drove another 10 Mls and no probs.
After parking for about 6 hours, drove for 12-15 Mls and no probs.
Car standing for 3 hours and drove off again, after about 18 Mls, made another fast right corner, accelerated same as before and again same happend as before: the engine lost some power, a bit rough and both CEL and right after this TCS warning lights came on and stayed on, engine running on 5 cilinders.

Stopped, waited 1 or 2 min, started again but CEL+TCS and 5 cil.
As I was close to home, I quietly drove home running on 5 cil, stopped and pulled CEL: code 73, random misfire, misfire cil 3.
Connected OBD code reader and it says 2 codes: P1203 and P1303 Misfire cil 3.
What can be wrong???
 
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Car has only done total of 23.5K Mls from new, CTSC was installed 2 years ago at 19.5K Mls
Seems unlikely to me a coilpack will fail with this very low mileage!?
I also don't understand why the TSC light comes on too.
 
Irregardess of mileage, the car is 10 yrs old. Electrical items can go bad at any point in time.
I would suspect the TCS came on due to loss of traction but don't know why it wouldn't stayed on.
Sorry
 
With what code did the TCS come up with?

5 cyl. -> engine
TCS while cornering -> bad wheel sensor??? Pull the code of the TCS. :wink:
 
With what code did the TCS come up with?

5 cyl. -> engine
TCS while cornering -> bad wheel sensor??? Pull the code of the TCS. :wink:

How do I read TCS codes?
 
How do I read TCS codes?

Just looked through the manual and see TCS codes are read same way as CEL by shortcircuiting the same (blue) service connector!?

I did this at first to read the CEL, and that shows like earlier written, code 73.
When dooing this, the TCS light stays on all the time, so does this mean no error codes on TCS??

I just cleared the CEL codes with the OBD reader and started up the engine: running normal again, no warning lights and no CEL codes showing up.

So considering the circumstances when the problem occurred TWICE:
-both times during right corner while accellerating full boost
-both times after about 15-18 Mls of driving after the car standed for several hours.
So am wondering:
-is this G-force related (cornering) loose wire/short circuit somewhere
-is this boost related (full accelerating under full boost)
-is this heat related (both times after about 15-18 Mls driving), no problem showing after things have cooled down and clearing CEL

Still don't understand why the TCS light comes on if this were to be ignition /coilpack related, unless the powerloss (suddenly running on 5 cil) in the corner triggers the TCS
 
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Just looked through the manual and see TCS codes are read same way as CEL by shortcircuiting the same (blue) service connector!?

I did this at first to read the CEL, and that shows like earlier written, code 73.
When dooing this, the TCS light stays on all the time, so does this mean no error codes on TCS??

I just cleared the CEL codes with the OBD reader and started up the engine: running normal again, no warning lights and no CEL codes showing up.

So considering the circumstances when the problem occurred TWICE:
-both times during right corner while accellerating full boost
-both times after about 15-18 Mls of driving after the car standed for several hours.
So am wondering:
-is this G-force related (cornering) loose wire/short circuit somewhere
-is this boost related (full accelerating under full boost)
-is this heat related (both times after about 15-18 Mls driving), no problem showing after things have cooled down and clearing CEL

Still don't understand why the TCS light comes on if this were to be ignition /coilpack related, unless the powerloss (suddenly running on 5 cil) in the corner triggers the TCS

Hi Rene,

First of all, am very sorry to hear about your problem.
These are the times that I find out just how little I know about the car.

I wonder if it is the same cylinder misfiring every time. In that case, I would definately check the coilpack for sure. Perhaps, it's just a bad connection.
Maybe you could swap two coilpacks and then see if it's the other cylinder starting misfiring. Then you would know for sure it's the coilpack.

Maybe you should also check your grounds. Have been reading about bad grounds quite a lot on Prime if I remember correctly.

Most of all, it's sounds like an electronic/electrical problem and not a mechanical one. Just hope you figure things out quickly.
 
Hmmm,

Not many reactions/ advice, nobody knows??:frown:

So I have started troubleshooting myself.
Removed all 3 coilpacks and sparkplugs of the rear cilinderrow (cil 1-3)
Nothing much to see, all 3 plugs look good center electrode colour and are clean, all coilpacks clean.
Only thing to be observed is a very small amount of corrosion on the top connector of plugs 2 and 3, looks like a few sandgrits glued to top of the plugs, no loose/dusty corrosion. Insides of coils 2-3 (small springs where the sparkplugs contact) seem a tiny bit "green", so sprayed with contactpray and moved plugs in the coils to help clear up any corrosion.

Swapped coils and plugs on cil 2-3 like MvM also advised.

Engine running normal now (but it always did cold), so will have to wait what happens when it gets warm.
IF the coilpack and/or sparkplug of cil 3 is defective, now if the problem re-occurs, it must do so on cil 2 and I will know for sure.
If I have now cleared up any small amount of corrosion beeing the cause, perhaps the problem will have disappeared completely, fingers crossed:rolleyes:

Will report back.
Still all other advice appreciated!!
 
Curious, the TCS light shows up but no error code was stored?

Starting with the spark plugs and coils was fine. Anyhow, how did the coil packs look like, esp the metal plate, slightly or heavily corroded?

Could you reproduce the behaviour in left turns also?
 
Curious, the TCS light shows up but no error code was stored?

Starting with the spark plugs and coils was fine. Anyhow, how did the coil packs look like, esp the metal plate, slightly or heavily corroded?

Could you reproduce the behaviour in left turns also?

Outside of coilpacks, metal plate, no corrosion at all, completely like new.
But hey, I honestly didn't expect anything else as the car has only 23.5 K Mls and has lived a garaged life, is in as new condition overall.

Reproducing: this happend twice under exactly same circumstances, so no, haven't tried/been able to reproduce.
 
Rene,
Watching this thread with great interest. My 98-T a few weeks ago started exhibiting the same issues, I havnt pulled the codes yet or had the time to look into much more than resetting the battery which seems to solve the problem for quite some time.

CEL/TCS light activating even under normal highway driving and rev's limited to 4000, reset with battery and all ok again for a while, I found an interesting thread where the same issue was related to loose connector on the ESM or ASM depending which CTSC you have, the first time this happened the idle went very low maybe 4 to 500 and car stalled quite a few times, engine felt erratic which might have been one of the cylinders not operating (just a guess) but after resetting that problem went away and now comes back with the TCS/CEL light on and a 4000 limit but everything else feels fine.

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/archi...p/t-14800.html

Very interested on the outcome you have, for now my car is running 2 days with no issues, however over the weekend it happened about 5 times, next time will go into Honda and get the codes read (Honda Japan however wont touch my car as its an Acura ... figure that one out), so I need to pin point the issue and then take it to a specialised NSX shop 2 hours away who will do what I ask ...

Cheers
Kye
 
Key,

I have a US CTSC NSX which I recently imported to Europe, and it has the self-diagnostic mode.

Not sure if your Japanese NSX has self-diagnostic like the US-version has, but if it does:
Why not read out the troublecode yourself, it is a small job easily done, 5 min max.
Just look up the blue service connector located directly under the glovebox. If you pull the top edge of the carpet a bit, you will see the blue connector located just left of the middle. It is plugged into a blank, so just press the locking tab and there it is. Connect both leads in the plug with a paperclip, turn on the ignition (do not start!!) and CEL code will start showing.
Mind you, Codes will not show anymore when you have disconnected the battery to make the warning lights go out. If you did, you will have to wait till the problem re-occurs and then read out the code.
 
Mine is US CTSC also imported to Japan, will do that next time the codes turns up. Did you check the ASM / ESM cabling to make sure that is not the issue as described in the other posting ? I am gonna check mine tonight.
//Kye
 
Kye,
The link that you put in your previous posting doesn't work (for me), so I don't know what you mean by the ASM/ESM check
 
checked the connections last night, all looked fine except for the connector at the bottom of the computer where the orange cable from the ASM links in, it was out a little and clicked when pushed in .. no idea if this is the cause of the problem, will find out after more driving I guess!

Have you checked your cabling / connectors? this unit is located behind the passenger seat.
//Kye
 
checked the connections last night, all looked fine except for the connector at the bottom of the computer where the orange cable from the ASM links in, it was out a little and clicked when pushed in .. no idea if this is the cause of the problem, will find out after more driving I guess!

Have you checked your cabling / connectors? this unit is located behind the passenger seat.
//Kye

I guess you mean RED wire (not Orange?) there is no orange wire on the ASM (wires are blue/ green/ black/ red)
All 4 ASM wires are soldered in on my car, no problem there, checked voltage: 2.9V so OK.
Unplugged all 4 connectors on engine management ECU and plugged in again, just to be sure.
Unplugged and plugged in the TCS ECU.

Checked the Comptech fuel pump regulator unit (FPRU) wires/connections and seem OK too.

Drove the car again yesterday and it was running normal again to begin with. Again after about 15 Mls (but now while just cruising at 3000rpm's), CEL and TCS on again, running on 5 cil again.
Limped back home and checked code: 73 so again cil 3 misfire.

Unlike the previous 2 times when after cooling down and clearing CEL the engine running normal again, now it doesn't anymore!!:frown:
It keeps running on 5 cil permanently, after revving it a few times (standing still) CEL + TCS come on again!!

So whatever the problem is, it is permanent now.
Possible bad coilpack is ruled out as I changed packs+ sparkplugs between cil3 and 2, but the errorcode stays on cil3, so coilpacks/sparkplugs not the cause.

I am running a bit out of options now: wiring on ASM and FPRU seem OK, coilpacks + sparkplugs exchange makes no difference, so also OK.

Plan on doiing a compression check and go over the ign coil wiring as next step.

Any other advice very welcome!!!!
 
Alright now lets take this one step at a time since you narrowed it down..

Forget the TCS for right now. What i would do is if you have a good manual and wiring schematic, trace the wires(ground and power) for that coil CYL only since that is the one with the continues problem. Also remember maybe there is a fuel injector issue with that cylinder also. Check that out and report back with update. thanx
 
This really sounds like water, under the coil cover and shorting a coil pak, #3 is back passenger side, and a common "wet" coil:). Remove the covers, check for water when you remove the coils, and make sure the gasket is on the top(intake) side of the coil cover.

HTH,
LarryB
 
Larry,

As I wrote before, I know about the possible coil/water problem, but this isn't with my car.
Coils and plugs are spotless, no rust or moisture and even though I exchanged coils/sparkplugs between 2 cilinders, the problem remained with the same cilinder, so no coil problem.

In my DIY tools collection (probably over the years I have collected more than the average workshop has):biggrin: I have both an endoscope and a compression gauge.

So using the endoscope (with which it is quite difficult to focus and understand what you are looking at by the way) I took a peek inside all 6 cilinders and as far as I can interprit what I see, they are spotless, no damages and no carbon whatsoever.:rolleyes:

Next did a compression test and all cilinders have 220-225 psi so perfect.:smile:
I think I can now definatly rule out any mechanical problems and will focus on the electrics next (not my strongest point:cool: )

Luckily I also have collected all service manuals and the '97-'04 electrical troubleshooting manual, so let's hope these will aid in my ongoiing search.

Will report back.

Still any advice appreciated!!!
 
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OK, I think then it is time to swap out the "ignitor". Find a friend with a properly running NSX, swap it out. If you have a whipple CTSC this will be some work to swap in your car, since the ignitor is pretty much buried under the intake scoop. If you have a newer Autorotor it is easier;).

Also on the passenger side engine bay(1995+) is the "Spark Misfire Detection" module. These have been known to fail as well. If you disconnect it, you will get a CEL with a whole series of codes. But.....it the engine starts to run correctly, there's your issue:).

HTH,
LarryB
 
Any updates?
 
You might want to read the last few posts of this thread:

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14800

I was doing some searches because mine did the same thing today! But I don't have a CTSC. I have had about 10-15 occasions during the last 8 months of ownership where the TCS light comes on. After shutting off the ignition and restarting it goes away. I've had 2-3 occasions where the TCS comes on and the CEL also flashes on then goes off. Now though, both lights are staying on. Feeling the exhaust pressure, I can tell the left pipe doesn't have as much air pressure coming out as the right pipe (JGTC Parallel - I think that's the front bank). So it's apparently missing or running on 5 cylinders. I'm getting the same 4k RPM limiter and my idle is at 1200 RPM whereas it's usually around 850 RPM. I assume the 4k limiter is some kind of "safe mode".

I haven't done the paperclip in the blue connector yet to pull the codes for the TCS or CEL yet. But thought I'd look here first. BTW I have 215/40/17 front and 265/35/18 rear tires. I would have preferred 275/35 on the rear, but the wheels came with these mounted. Would these sizes cause TCS problems? Would that then lead to the CEL problem I'm having? My TCS Off switch never lights up and I don't think it even works. I would add that I recently removed the "silencers" that restrict the flow (and noise volume) of the JGTC Parallel exhaust. They had been installed for about 1 month. TIA.

David
 
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OK, I think then it is time to swap out the "ignitor". Find a friend with a properly running NSX, swap it out. If you have a whipple CTSC this will be some work to swap in your car, since the ignitor is pretty much buried under the intake scoop. If you have a newer Autorotor it is easier;).

Also on the passenger side engine bay(1995+) is the "Spark Misfire Detection" module. These have been known to fail as well. If you disconnect it, you will get a CEL with a whole series of codes. But.....it the engine starts to run correctly, there's your issue:).

HTH,
LarryB

I recently helped to diagnose a customer's car with a P1304 CEL which is a misfire in cylinder 4. This cylinder had no spark regardless of coil swapping, so he replaced the ignitor, and he's good to go!
 
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