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Do timing belts really break???

well my timing belt broke on my '95 in between shifting from 2nd to 3rd at around 130K miles, but.............. it was my Integra:D

I got lucky and nothing was damaged and got away with just t-belt and water pump replace for about $500....

Funny how much difference in prices between dealership and local cert. Acura shops charge though...I was thinking of buying Bakfu's silver '91 and checked into prices on a 90K service with T-belt replacement on NSX's...Mission Viejo Acura wanted @ $2300 and the most expensive quote I got from the local honda/acura specialist was about $1600:eek:

$700- 1000 difference for same service??? Do the dealers use gold plated nuts and bolts or are they that much better???
 
FWIW I am looking at a 91 low mileage NSX

I am not sure at this point if the timing belt and water pump have been replaced. Will the facts figure into the price? YUP! WiIl I be sure they are tended to if they have not been even though the car only has 12K miles? YUP! Cheap insurance. Peace of mind, etc.
 
Re: FWIW I am looking at a 91 low mileage NSX

Dennis in SE PA said:
I am not sure at this point if the timing belt and water pump have been replaced. Will the facts figure into the price? YUP! WiIl I be sure they are tended to if they have not been even though the car only has 12K miles? YUP! Cheap insurance. Peace of mind, etc.

Assuming you can't track down service records though a dealer, you can tell with a reasonable degree of certainty by looking at the front cover through which the water pump weep tube protrudes. If it was replaced in the past few years it may have had the water pump done as well, in which case the front cover was either modified or replaced. (If you search a few months back by my ID you will find a detailed description on identifying a new pump & cover.) Although I would not be surprised if someone skipped the pump on such a low mileage car, if they did replace it they almost certainly did the belt since it must come off to do the pump.
 
the answer is YES

There HAVE been documented examples of t-belt failures, typically with $$$ consequences. I don't know the owner names, perhaps someone with more detailed records (Lud?) can comment.

############

They WILL fail over some combination of time/use... and yes, there IS a safety factor built into Honda's recommendations. How much you care to pay for insurance is a function of your risk preferences and how you choose to bias the odds one way or another. Having known him long enough, I can trust nsxtasy to "do the math" :D

I did my first t-belt on a low-mile older car (1993) in late 2001. I was a little late time-wise, but early mileage-wise. The car had spent its first 5 years, and its last 1 in South Florida, an area with ambient conditions that are kinda rough on rubber parts. So I took a chance and bet on "more insurance". Some say I was too early, others say too late -- generally irrelevant as its MY choice.

nsxtasy -- post # 10000 ??
 
Re: the answer is YES

nsx1164 said:
There HAVE been documented examples of t-belt failures, typically with $$$ consequences. I don't know the owner names, perhaps someone with more detailed records (Lud?) can comment.

After seeing many of these threads over 3+ years, I am still yet to read a response from an actual owner who experienced this. Perhaps, they just wouldn't want to talk about it. I don't know if I would or not. However, I think it is safe to say that this forum would be interested in a real account...not "I don't remember the name, but it sure cost a lot...I guess..."

If there are any links to threads with actual accounts, I think it would make for interesting reading...anyone?

I didn't thinks so...

Ya know, MB or others may have fixed a few (or a lot, I don't know) for folks who want to remain anonymous, but you can't blame people with this common interest (NSX's) for asking...
 
I just got off the phone with the service manager of an Acura delaership that did a PPI on a car I'm looking at. They claim they see quite a few NSX's (I have no PROOF of this). Nonetheless, I asked him the hotly debated question of when the T-belt should be done and he was less than specific with his answer. He stated that Acura recommends 90,000 miles but doing it at 60,000 is "a good idea depending on how the car has been driven."

So there you have it. Clear as mud.

TRANSLATION:
"If you drive and maintain your NSX responsibly, 90K should be OK for nearly all of you. The manufacturer even stands behind that recommendation. However, knowing that some of you speed demons can't seem to stay under redline much, we endorse 60,000 miles as the supreme safe bet."
 
Spencer, I think the answer is no. If I neglected one and had it fail, I wouldn't be embarrassed to admit it. There are lots of embarrassing stories out there...just read Brian2by2's post...
 
Every timing belt will break and every day and every mile brings it closer to the day it snaps. And when it goes, and under certain conditions it may cause loss of vehicle control, which could result in unfortunate physical results to both the driver/passengers and others on the road. I say this because I believe it is reasonable to assume that a timing belt close to failure will fail at a time when it is being stressed, like at high engine RPM which means there is a high likely hood that the car will be traveling fast and closer to its traction limits and if the timing belt lets go in a high-speed turn near the car’s traction limits, a very predictable result will follow based on the laws of physics.

I personally believe that the timing belt in the NSX can/has/will last well beyond its scheduled replacement date, maybe even twice as long or more on a car that has seen a few easy miles and has been well maintained. We have many cars on this forum that are at or beyond their replacement date and we have not heard of any first hand stories of t-belts breaking, although some of the mechanics that I have talked to who work on lots of NSXes and other Hondas will quickly tell you that t-belts do break on NSXes, and they might even show you an engine where this has occurred.

Since t-belt failure can be catastrophic in human terms and certainly will result in complete mechanical destruction of the engine, it is simply not an option to bring this to fruition or even close; the Honda engineers know this well and have selected a replacement date that is conservative so that if an owner follows the maintenance schedule, their NSX will never be at risk of breaking their timing belt.

Therefore, if one replaces their timing belt at the scheduled date, they avoid the risk of it breaking and all that follows. Those who wish to extend the service date are putting the public, themselves and loved ones, and their cars at risk every day and every mile, this is certain because every timing belt will eventually break and those who try to guess arbitrarily when this will happen are missing the point completely—and that is, the Honda engineers have already selected a replacement date that insures the owner and public that their timing belt will not be at a substantial risk of breaking.

DanO
 
Check the Ferrarichat board for timing belt failures and you will see some sad stories. If mine broke I don't know if I would tell or not, good lesson for others but humiliation for me. See my ad for hundreds of pieces in the parts for sale section.
DanO has made a strong case for getting it done ASAP.
 
"catastrophic in human terms" "...putting the public, themselves and loved ones, and their cars at risk every day and every mile..." "...may cause loss of vehicle control..."

Like I said a few posts ago, remarks like these are seemingly designed to scare the bejesus out of those idiots (like myself) who haven't yet gotten around to changing it. (Hell, I must be a total social pariah, I drive a 'girlie' automatic AND my 59K mile babied car has it's original belt...)

Side Note: Interestingly enough, I once had a timing belt break in a 944 (after I HAD replaced the belt BUT the idiotic Porsche tensioner failed)...I GUESS I SHOULD THANK GOD I'M STILL ALIVE!

Anyway, back to our story. In an attmept to draw some logic into this discussion, I looked at the manual for my V70 this morning. The Volvo engineers call for replacement of the belt at 110K in the main manual with no mention of time. When you look at the more detailed service manual, the cite 110K or a stunning 168 months!

I find this interesting for several reasons. We're all basically discussing the arbitrary (or non-arbitrary) nature of the time requirement vs. actual mileage driven. When you look at the way Volvo sets out the requirements it's plain that the time/mileage requirement just happens to "fit" within the expected chronological timeframe. At least in "Volvo World" it plain to see that the time frame has been selected on an arbitrary basis...what they're really keying in on is the 110K mileage requirement.

I suspect that is exactly what the Honda engineers did in 1991. Coupled with the subsequent extension, and the fact that we have yet to read of a single actual verified failure in a non-raced or abused car, it seems to err on the conservative BIG TIME.

Does that mean I'm going to play Russian roulette much longer? No. Does that mean I don't change my oil? No. Does it mean I don't have my valves adjusted? No.

I don't really appreciate the personal attacks, either. I just asked a simple question, that has yet to be answered, and that is "DOES ANYONE HAVE ACTUAL FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE OF ONE BREAKING?"
 
My remarks were not seemingly designed to scare anyone or to try and make anyone look like an idiot. I just wanted to show that a t-belt failure does not happen in a vacuum and probably not even stopped at a red light near an Acura dealership. Most likely it will happen out on the road somewhere who knows where, leaving the driver and passenger to wait for a tow vehicle and maybe, in an extreme situation, cause an accident. I don’t think my point is way out of whack here. Also, it’s not just a 12k-15k engine replacement, it’s a major PIA, downtime and personal time spent dealing with the repair and working out the bugs.

I guess I don’t understand what a Volvo V70 110k/14 year t-belt schedule has to do with the NSX schedule, I assume the engine design, t-belt and t-belt stress are significantly different between the two vehicles to be of much help with this discussion although I do see your point about the fundamental mileage/time differences between the two.

Since we don’t have any way of testing how much mileage/time is left in our individual t-belts before they go, it only seems logical to replace them while they are still in great condition—that’s my own .02 worth. I hope that the Honda engineers did not select a maintenance date that was even close to the expected life of the belt—that would be unfortunate.

I do like the idea however, of collecting a database of high-mileage cars that have not had their t-belts changed yet, and of cars that have had their t-belts break and their mileage. In the next few years (or maybe a little more) we may begin to see the limits of the NSX t-belt. From the lack of responses to the question on this thread, I’d say that the Honda engineers selected the replacement date quite well.

DanO
 
DanO:

My point in bringing up the Volvo schedule is not to imply that since Volvos last that long Hondas should also (or anything like that), but rather merely to illustrate that when one looks at the way that they physically set it out in their charts -- it seems that with the Volvo engineers, at least, it's clear that the time element is arbitrarily derived...just as I assume Honda's engineers derived it (absent real world experience at the time, circa 1991).

I think the central question to all of this "time vs. mileage" talk is...just how much does a timing belt 'age' setting in a car that is not running (but once a week perhaps) and/or being "cycled" through a much lower number of "start and run" phases than you'd normally do in a car that gets run regularly, like an Accord.

My guess is...that absent UV exposure and with an engine not cycling up to operating temperatures 2 or 3 times a day -- not much. But what do I know? I'm not an automotive engineer, I just play one on T.V. :)

I think that it's an excellent idea to establish a database of failures and high mileage non-failure cars.

Note: I AM going to replace mine soon.

Speaking of PIA...so to continue with my Porsche timing belt failure... mine occured at SeaTac International Airport, in the rain (what else, it's Seattle), at rush hour, coming out on the main limited access road from the terminal, on the Friday when the Final Four Basketball Playoffs were town -- and every incoming flight was a capacity. How's that for timing (pun intended)?
 
Like I said earlier......

It wasn't an NSX, but it was an Acura..My '95 Integra, It went out at 130K in between shifting from 2nd to 3rd...No loud sound, no vibration, the car just died....Lucky for my slacker ass NOTHING happened to the engine...I had it replaced for about $500 with water pump and it is still going strong today at 175K....

So losing a belt while driving isn't always "catastrophic", but it isn't a chance you'd want to take on an NSX...
 
Just to throw in my timing belt stories for anyone who cares, my moms Honda lost a timing belt under low speed when slowing to a traffic light. The car just died without warning. The car had 62K miles at the time which was 2K miles over the Honda recomended change interval for those years. Honda refused to warranty the belt since my parants failed to change the belt according to the recomended interval. The cost on this 4 cylinder engine head machine work and valve replacement was about $1500 out of pocket. My family had another T belt go out within 50K miles of its change (This was a Honda OEM belt that was changed at around 60K and broke before the car hit 100K miles). We also had another old Honda that broke the T belt but simply threw the car away since it was not worth repairing.

When I worked at a Honda dealership service department about 2 years out of High School back in 1992, I know of at least 4 cars that came in with broken timing belts. Some were under warranty since it was within the change interval, some the customer had to pay for the entire repair, while some were good willed. IMHO, it is just too much of a gamble to stretch the timing belt change even though I personally believe it will and can last much longer. The problem is you just don't know if your belt will be the one that last a long time or one that failes. It's also too much of a risk to bet on your dealer being kind enough to warranty it or good will it if it does break.
 
When I bought my NSX it had 88,000 miles on it. The clutch slipped under hard acceleration and the 90,000 mile maintenance had yet to be done. I drove it a couple thousand miles and then dropped the engine and transaxle and put the engine on an engine stand so I could work on it with relative ease. While this isn't how a professional mechanic would do it, I figured since I was replacing the clutch, timing belt, water pump, etc. that it was worth the added time to remove the engine/transaxle and have everything easily accessible. I was also taking into consideration my nonexistent experience with this type of engine in this type of car. Taking the engine and transaxle out wasn't too difficult, and since I was doing it myself, time was not a critical issue. A nice thing about looking straight at the front (actually the right side) of the engine was that I could take a good look at the timing belt in it's installed condition. This is hard to do in the car because there really isn't much space in there to look around. The teeth on the timing belt were in good condition, but the belt was stretched a bit and the tensioner was not keeping it in proper tension. I could move the belt laterally a good inch or more without much effort, which seemed to be quite a lot to me. When I removed the belt and compared it to the new belt the amount of stretch was obvious, although I didn't measure it to get an exact figure. I just looked at it and thought that replacing it wasn't a bad thing to do, and I was glad that I hadn't run the engine over 6500 RPM more than a couple of times since I had bought the car.

While the timing belt was still fully functional it seemed to me that replacing it was a reasonable thing to do. While I was there I also replaced the waterpump, front crankshaft seal, oil cooler seals, oil cooler hoses, and all that other stuff that falls in the zone of "well, as long as I have it apart..." I also replaced the cam position sensor that is located on the front cylinder head. The potting had melted out of it and I thought that it would be best to replace it. It's one of those things that is easy to replace while you're in there, and hard to get at afterwords.

Dan-O's comments are right on the money with respect to personal health and well being. People don't usually relate the price of auto repair to their own physical well being, but cars can fail anywhere and if you're in the middle of the desert in July or driving down a steep mountain road in winter, an unexpected failure can lead to more discomfort than a call to the AAA to come and tow your car to a repair shop. I don't subscribe to the blind idea that everything Honda Motor Company says and does is irrefutable gospel, but common sense and a reasonable amount of pessimism should be used in situations like this. A fundamental maxim in the engineering business is "design for the worst case". This is equally valid in the auto service industry, but maybe it should be called "replace for the worst case".

The timing belt itself is relatively cheap. I think I paid $160 or so. But other things tend to add up, like the water pump, and new cover that goes with the water pump, the timing cover seals, etc. etc. etc. Usually when you're into it this deep you might as well take care of everything in the immediate area that needs to be serviced. Certainly the hoses need to be replaced at 90,000 miles (all of them, front to back), and there are quite a few of them at $10-$25 each. NSX parts aren't cheap (thermostat was over $20) and the dealers and/or indendent shops don't work for free either. But sometimes it's best to do things like this and avoid the unlikely but possible unpleasant events that would result if you didn't.

John Crawford
 
Now see what you've done! Lud, it would serve them right to leave the posts out there so all can see what dweebs they are.

But I wasn’t through yet. I think the point about recommending early belt replacement to avoid litigation is still worth debating. So I continue undeterred…

It seems absurd to think that fear of litigation stemming from accidents resulting from a broke belt was a significant factor in the replacement recommendation. Thanks back to Pintos, Chevy pickups, Firestone, and countless lesser cases and you’ll see that they are perfectly capable of ignoring much larger issues if their calculations (much like your own) suggest that it makes economic sense. Don’t but that? Well let’s look at seat belts for a moment, which I think are quite analogous. Did you know that studies have shown that they lose 30% – 70% of their strength in just a few years? Different materials have different life expectancies but none of them retain even half their strength after 5 years (actual time depends on environmental conditions of course). Manufacturers know this, but have you ever seen one recommend that you replace them every few years? The mere recommendation alone would give them some degree of protection yet they prefer to ignore the issue and hope it doesn’t come up.

If you think about it, there are probably other similar maintenance issues that have some potential risk but are not covered by manufacturers recommendations. I think it’s a bit of a stretch to assume that potential litigation was a significant factor here, though I must concede that it is not impossible.

Edit: lose, not loose. Uhg, I need to proof read.
 
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