ERROR CODES on App, but not dash

[MasterNSXTech]

If Honda has bought back several NC1s that exhibit this problem
(and I have no reason to doubt DocL's reports that they have),
then they have several failing cars at their disposal. Honda could
be putting instruments on those cars and driving the hell out of
them until they figure out what is wrong.

Is anyone satisfied by the story that weak 12V batteries are
causing finicky systems to misbehave? If it's true, the electronics
are not designed well. Any logic circuits in a car should be run
off a power supply that's immune to typical voltage fluctuations
in the car's electrical system. You should see a battery struggle
to run lights, power seats, and so on before any of the control
systems start to misbehave from low voltage.

A typical home computer power supply can maintain steady
5V and 12V DC outputs even if the AC line voltage wobbles
all over the place. This is not rocket science.



Is Corporate on the case or aren't they? The customers shouldn't
be doing their testing for them. So far there seems to be no better
guidance than to swap 12V batteries (which are only a couple years
old at most, so why are they bad?) and hope for the best.

Yes there have been cars that were bought back. And symptom #1 for most if not all of them is all the warning lights came on and the car maybe went into a limp mode. As I’ve stated before, our control modules are all networked together and when a fault is detected on one module, all the others cry foul too. So something simple like a blockage or leak in the evaporative emissions system will set off the check engine, then usually brake system next, then electric steering, and the lights keep coming on till you’re looking at a Christmas tree. Another car with a severed wheel speed sensor will show a Christmas tree as well. And another car with a cylinder head that destroyed itself will also have all the lights on. All different causes...same symptom. So “cars at their disposal” means nothing other than ideas for a guess at what might be the cause for the OP’s car.

Every dealer gets vehicles in all the time where complaints can’t be duplicated. There are resources available from AHM where similar vehicles with the same symptoms are databased and what eventually fixed them. Sounds like the dealer in the OP’s case used that resource and a battery is their best guess. A long shot guess in my professional opinion. But the 12v battery in the NSX is a specific part not shared with any other Honda. Due to the low volume nature of this part, if there is some kind of weakness with this particular part (like an internal short or open very briefly), they may not know about it yet.

There are circuits in cars that run on steadily maintained 5v which is provided by the PCM. Everything else, including the PCM is powered by the 12v system. What’s pertinent to this particular case is the control modules are designed to run at anywhere from 9-16v given that the 12v system is really never at an exact 12v. Some of the control modules are very sensitive to a drop in voltage, even if it’s for a split second. The ABS/VSA and SRS systems are ones that I frequently see on other cars with codes stored for low voltage.

Corporate doesn't seem to care too much. They outsource the entire buyback protocol to Stericycle. When the car is taken back we really have no idea what is going to happen to it afterwards.

I also don't understand how a weak battery can render the car useless. Doesn't it have an alternator? Or does it have something to do with CANbus or hybrid system.

The car eventually makes it way back to AHM. They will usually wind up in training centers all across the country and get disassembled and reassembled for years to come. But unless you’ve have a kilo of coke stashed in the door panel or something, what do you care what gets done with the car? Take your check and move on.

There is no conventional alternator. Just as there is no conventional starter either. As is the case with hybrids, the “pancake motor” between the engine and transmission performs both of those functions as well as providing/assisting with propulsion. When it’s charging, its voltage is sent to the AC-DC inverter which then charges the 12v battery. It’s just links in a chain. And the battery one of the last links before the 12v control systems of the vehicle get power.

Now, had I paid like $75k for an un-complicated and un-sophisticated mid-engine Chevy with a push-rod antique engine, and that Chevy malfunctioned?......I’D BE PISSED!

Doesn’t matter if it’s a $75k Stingray, a $175k NSX, or a $20k Civic. All modern cars have sophisticated electrical systems with 20-50 control modules on board. I’ve seen soft set connectors or weak terminal pin fits in wire harnesses cause a variety of intermittent almost impossible to duplicate problems in our vehicles.

 

[Bricks and Bio]

As mentioned elsewhere, one of the repurchased cars was modified to allow the injured Indy car driver to use it.

If you question the impact of a battery, have a look on Ferrarichat to see the mayhem weak batteries cause with their cars.

If Honda has bought back several NC1s that exhibit this problem
(and I have no reason to doubt DocL's reports that they have),
then they have several failing cars at their disposal. Honda could
be putting instruments on those cars and driving the hell out of
them until they figure out what is wrong.

Is anyone satisfied by the story that weak 12V batteries are
causing finicky systems to misbehave? If it's true, the electronics
are not designed well. Any logic circuits in a car should be run
off a power supply that's immune to typical voltage fluctuations
in the car's electrical system. You should see a battery struggle
to run lights, power seats, and so on before any of the control
systems start to misbehave from low voltage.

A typical home computer power supply can maintain steady
5V and 12V DC outputs even if the AC line voltage wobbles
all over the place. This is not rocket science.



Is Corporate on the case or aren't they? The customers shouldn't
be doing their testing for them. So far there seems to be no better
guidance than to swap 12V batteries (which are only a couple years
old at most, so why are they bad?) and hope for the best.

 

[LandLawMan]

Yes there have been cars that were bought back. And symptom #1 for most if not all of them is all the warning lights came on and the car maybe went into a limp mode. As I’ve stated before, our control modules are all networked together and when a fault is detected on one module, all the others cry foul too. So something simple like a blockage or leak in the evaporative emissions system will set off the check engine, then usually brake system next, then electric steering, and the lights keep coming on till you’re looking at a Christmas tree.

’Master, we’re lucky to have you, and I’m grateful for your willingness to share your expertise.

 

[Tom239]

If you question the impact of a battery, have a look on Ferrarichat to see the mayhem weak batteries cause with their cars.

I'm saying that if the car is that temperamental about the battery,
it's not well designed. In most cars, if the battery is too weak to
start the car, you can get a jump start and drive. Most cars run
even with a weak battery once they're started. The NC1 seems
to stop working--now and then, in some intermittent way--with a
battery that's only a couple years old.

If Ferrari electronic systems are poorly designed too, that isn't much consolation.

 

[DocL]

I'm saying that if the car is that temperamental about the battery,
it's not well designed. In most cars, if the battery is too weak to
start the car, you can get a jump start and drive. Most cars run
even with a weak battery once they're started. The NC1 seems
to stop working--now and then, in some intermittent way--with a
battery that's only a couple years old.

If Ferrari electronic systems are poorly designed too, that isn't much consolation.

It's expected that a Ferrari will have problems, you go into Ferrari ownership knowing that. The NSX was supposed to be the reliable hybrid supercar. And now we know the electrical issues aren't isolated as the Master has proclaimed.

 

[Tom239]

Yes there have been cars that were bought back. And symptom As I’ve stated before, our control modules are all networked together and when a fault is detected on one module, all the others cry foul too. So something simple like a blockage or leak in the evaporative emissions system will set off the check engine, then usually brake system next, then electric steering, and the lights keep coming on till you’re looking at a Christmas tree.

Yes you've told us that's the way it's designed. It sucks though.

If module B notices a fault detected by module A,
it shouldn't tell the driver that it's a type B problem.

 

[MasterNSXTech]

All modern vehicles have electrical issues. For the most part, everyone buys components from the same suppliers. And there will also be a human factor when cars go down the assembly line and the line worker didn’t make sure that they heard a click at connector #22 of 45 when they were installing the main chassis wire harness.

it will be interesting to see how the new Corvette turns out. I hear the launch was delayed due to electrical issues and the car uses GM’s brand new electrical architecture system. Nothing ever slips through the cracks for the first year right?

 

[nsx878]

All modern vehicles have electrical issues. For the most part, everyone buys components from the same suppliers. And there will also be a human factor when cars go down the assembly line and the line worker didn’t make sure that they heard a click at connector #22 of 45 when they were installing the main chassis wire harness.

it will be interesting to see how the new Corvette turns out. I hear the launch was delayed due to electrical issues and the car uses GM’s brand new electrical architecture system. Nothing ever slips through the cracks for the first year right?

Thoughts well taken. With all of these error code message issues and talk of lemons, I've thought a lot about all of this and how it may affect my longterm ownership of my NSX.

You have to look at each situation and ask if it is a design problem or flaw or a supply problem. In the case of the 3rd brake light and radiator caps, it was a supply problem. Bad, defective products form the sub manufacturer. I am assuming that Honda does not make every part and subs out lots of pieces?
I am not sure if the gas tank was a supply or design issues? Perhaps a manufacturing issue.

But Mastertech is right, it could be that a connection is bad or a harness or battery is defective. It will take some time to figure it out. But here is the question: If the warning light problem is a design problem, then why isn't EVERY car experiencing this issue??? Common sense, right? Is it in the harness? size of the wire too small? Just hard to know.

They say that you should never buy a first year edition of a new car design, and perhaps this is what is going on with the 2017's? It seems to me that the 2018's and 2019's are not suffering these issues???

There are lots of other cars out there with design issues, but nobody wants to acknowledge those. The McLaren has flexing issues that continually crack rear windshields, and as reported, the C8 was delayed due to electrical harness issues and flex issues like McLaren.

It will be interesting to follow this thread and see what answers to these issues come about...... Hopefully Acura can figure it out. It's going to be trial and error, and if only a handful are having the issue, it makes it even harder to diagnose.

 

[MasterNSXTech]

Forums like this for any particular marque is just like Yelp. You’re really only going to hear from people who feel they’ve been greatly wronged or they got an experience far beyond their expectations. Most people that just experience the average, pretty good, or good enough? They don’t feel the need to tell everyone about a rather unremarkable experience. You know you never really want to read individual reviews on yelp. Sure let them type away a whole story and name names. Just give it that one star or five star. I’m only interested in the average.

So of course an expensive sports car stirs up more emotions than getting a burrito at Chipotle. It just moves the love it or hate ends of the scale out even further. But there’s still plenty of average. I’ve met plenty of NSX owners where the car is just the flavor of the month to them and they’ll move on to the next thing. It’s nice, but they don’t loooove it. And they’ve never heard of NSX Prime. These people? They are the average.

If anyone who was thinking about maybe getting one of these based their decision on just what they read on a forum? Ugh. Kind of looking through rose colored glasses so to speak. Most people are on a forum because they really loooove the car. They are the five star yelp review. And of course when the love affair goes bad like it did for DocL, then it’s the one star.

 

[MasterNSXTech]

That last post probably should have been in the reliability thread. Oh well.

As complex as one may think the NSX is, we’ve actually got even more complex things. The Fuel Cell Clarity is practically a spaceship. And the MDX hybrid has all the same systems as the NSX, plus a bunch more for stuff like forward collision warning, adaptive cruise, blind spot warning, 360 degree parking cameras, folding mirrors (sore spot everyone?), rear seat entertainment, and maybe a couple more. Point is, the car is not too complex for its own good. It’s right there with everyone else.

If someone is worried that the complexity of the NSX will cause problems for long term ownership, yeah it’s a totally justified concern. But you should be equally as worried about the Audi R8, 911 Turbo, 570S, or anything else in the segment. The solution is simple. Just lease a new one every three years, and you’ll always have a car under warranty.

When the NA1 came out almost three decades ago it was complex car. Nowadays, everyone calls it a pure, simple, analog car. But back then, drive by wire, VTEC, SRS, ABS, all aluminum construction, and all that had people worrying that it’s be a hassle in the long term. Kinda proved true. While a lot of you guys have figured out how to deal with the audio system failures, climate control units, and other parts that can’t just simply be replaced anymore, it is a hassle now dealing with some of the “complexities” of the original car.

 

[DocL]

NSX878 were you aware that quite a few NSX’s also had windshields cracking for no reason. I believe one guy here had two replaced in a short period of time.

There is such a small number of owners of this car on the internet that we really can’t get a good sample size.

 

[MasterNSXTech]

I’ve had to replace a couple windshields. But they were from impact damage. Seems like this car’s windshield is a bit more fragile than the norm.

 

[nsx878]

No, I was not aware. That is why I am here. To learn and exchange information. I certainly do not know it all.....

 

[RyanRA]

They installed a new battery today (which is why I quoted the above post here). So the plan is: Drive it hard and see if it happens again. If it doesn’t, then viola. Problem solved.

I hope the new battery ends this saga. Did the dealership mention what the condition of your old battery was prior to installing the new one?

 

[LandLawMan]

I hope the new battery ends this saga. Did the dealership mention what the condition of your old battery was prior to installing the new one?

Good question. I’ll ask.

 

[chudson1549]

NSX878 were you aware that quite a few NSX’s also had windshields cracking for no reason. I believe one guy here had two replaced in a short period of time.

There is such a small number of owners of this car on the internet that we really can’t get a good sample size.

Who is the guy Doc?

 

[DocL]

Who. Who. Is there an owl in here?

 

[RyanRA]

I believe ”Weekend Driver” had two windshields replaced. Don't recall if they were caused by strikes.

https://www.youtube.com/user/CONFIGTGTR

 

[chudson1549]

Who. Who. Is there an owl in here?

I asked a simple question only because I thought you might be referring to me. I told you I had mine replaced twice. They were due to rocks hitting it. I never heard of the glass breaking due to stress.

 

[2slow2speed]

To the OP, hope you get your issue resolved.

Just some food for thought, seems like the dealer has been telling you to push the car on the streets to recreate the problem so that they can datalog the set of circumstances that are leading to the failure. So far it has happened while you have been driving on a relatively straight line.

Bike riders are very good at controlling cars since everything in a car happens relatively slowly compared to a motorcycle, hopefully the NC1 doesn't go into limp mode while you are cornering at the limit of adhesion. Not sure how well limp mode is implemented in the NC1 hopefully it won't shut down power or reduce power suddenly while you are cornering at the limit. As a rider you can pretty much guess what would happen in that particular scenario.

Wish fastaussie was still around, you two would probably have had a lot of things to chat about.

 

[garudatwo]

In my case, limp mode's effect was to lock me in the dynamic mode I was currently in, and removed the regen brakes. You can feel a difference in the Brake-by-Wire pedal as well. If I was in quiet/sport mode, the car would not switch to electric only.

 

[DocL]

In my case, limp mode's effect was to lock me in the dynamic mode I was currently in, and removed the regen brakes. You can feel a difference in the Brake-by-Wire pedal as well. If I was in quiet/sport mode, the car would not switch to electric only.

This happened with me and the brake pedal pressure felt different, and the pedal almost had to go to the floor to stop the car.

Good luck with your car.

 

[LandLawMan]

To the OP, hope you get your issue resolved.

Just some food for thought, seems like the dealer has been telling you to push the car on the streets to recreate the problem so that they can datalog the set of circumstances that are leading to the failure. So far it has happened while you have been driving on a relatively straight line.

Bike riders are very good at controlling cars since everything in a car happens relatively slowly compared to a motorcycle, hopefully the NC1 doesn't go into limp mode while you are cornering at the limit of adhesion. Not sure how well limp mode is implemented in the NC1 hopefully it won't shut down power or reduce power suddenly while you are cornering at the limit. As a rider you can pretty much guess what would happen in that particular scenario.

Wish fastaussie was still around, you two would probably have had a lot of things to chat about.

True Dat! I feel like 155 in the NSX is like 80 on my race bike. Feels soooo slow.

The first time that that it had a nutty, I was in the twisties pushing pretty hard. As I recall, I was just a tad sideways in a tight right corner in 3rd gear. The second time, I was on a straight road — virtually no steering input — when it went Tango Uniform.

Ive never had a similar experience on a bike, thank God. But once during the start, a guy’s bike crapped out. He was so lucky not to have caused unspeakable carnage.

Who’s fastaussie, and did he have similar issues with his NC1?

Thanks.

 

[LandLawMan]

In my case, limp mode's effect was to lock me in the dynamic mode I was currently in, and removed the regen brakes. You can feel a difference in the Brake-by-Wire pedal as well. If I was in quiet/sport mode, the car would not switch to electric only.

WOW! That actually explains a lot. And no one ever connected those dots with me before.

If you look at page 1 of this thread, you’ll see the pics I took of my dash when this happened the first time. Sure enough: I was in Sport+.

Now, here’s a pic of the SECOND time it happened. Sure enough: Sport+.

Now or I understand why the steering shook so badly, and the drive motor battery would not charge during re-gen braking. I’ll bet the twin motors were somehow causing un-synchronized propulsion, or in-synchronized drag, due to the “limp mode”.

By by the way, I filed a case with Acura America (or whatever they call themselves). I got a response from Sergio Ramos | Acura NSX Product Specialist | Acura Client Relations |
American Honda Motor Co., Inc.. They’re aware of the issue. I’m on record.

 

[DocL]

LandLaw, just a little observation of mine. But why is your oil temp so low? How long were you driving the car before this picture was taken?