Leaky Tranny ---OUCH!

[wildbill846]

I don't know if I'm posting to receive advice or just some comfort from everyone else. A couple weekends ago, I took the NSX to VIR for a track event and had to cut it short due to an oil leak of which I couldn't find the source. It was a good leak that really only showed its head when driving it out on the track. At idle there was also a rattling noise that I couldn't quite place either. So, after a wasted weekend the car was brought to my Acura dealership which had just changed my timing belt and water pump a few weeks prior.
Initial diagnoses was a bad axle seal and a loose bolt on the flywheel or clutch. While I thought there was a little too much oil leaking for a axle seal, I wanted to believe the easy fix. The loose flywheel bolt explained the rattling and the sometimes uneven idle. I was told a new seal and some loctite and a little torque would solve everything.
Today, they call back. Bad news! Now they believe the tranny case is leaking, with a possible hole caused by that bolt that backed itself out rubbing somewhere. Has anyone else ever had this problem or heard of it? Am I just one unlucky SOB? Is there any chance of a relationship between this problem and the service done a month ago?
Just wondering what some other people would do in this situation. They're waiting on my approval to pull the tranny to get a closer look at it, but if there is indeed a hole in the case many options cross my mind:
a. Sell the NSX--quickly rejected
b. Just replace the case and be content that I'll no longer have to worry about snap ring failure.
c. Go all out and get some high speed, low drag, kick ass gears while I'm at it.
d. Make the car a static display in my yard.
e. Plug any holes with bubblegum and continue to drive.

I'm leaning on option (b) right now. What should this cost me?

Thanks to anyone who answers any questions and to those who give me a shoulder to cry on.

Bill

 

[Lud]

What jobs were done in the service you mentioned which was performed a month ago?

Ask them to show you why and where they think the tranny is leaking before they pull it. For all you know at this point you could just be blowing some oil foam from extended high-RPM operation (if so, consider switching to synthetic). If these guys got it wrong the first time, I'd want to be a little move involved the second time.

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

Bill --

I have a used complete tranny with Comptech light flywheel, Comptech Powergrip 2 clutch, Japanese short gears, NSX-R 4.23:1 R&P, all in good condition (inspected 6 months ago). Tranny case is out of snap ring range. Private me if interested: [email protected]

Cheers,
-- Chris

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http://www.NSXClassifieds.com - free NSX classifieds site!

 

[wildbill846]

Lud,

All that was done at the last service was a timing belt and water pump replacement ...nothing else. After forking out the dough for that I wasn't expecting another big expense so soon and I'm going to need a new set of tires shortly. Ouch. I'm looking forward to deploying soon, maybe I'll get into a combat zone and get some tax free pay.

Bill

 

[Barn Man]

A loose flywheel bolt is very unlikely unless you've had a clutch put in recently. If so, it's not a mechanical problem, it's an installer problem, they should cover it.
Back up first. If the flywheel bolt got loose, it my cause a noise, but it shouldn't cause a hole. It would eventually hit the clutch disk and cause shifting probs. Even if it did fall all the way out of the flywheel/crank, it would stay caught inside of the clutch assy. It wouldn't knock a hole in the tranny case.
If a pressure plate bolt came out, it may knock a hole in the case. But this too is an installer issue. If the bolts are torqued correctly, they shouldn't back out at all. No loctite is needed. A proper torque is all that the pressure plate needs.
If they changed your trans fluid and somehow over filled it, it could come out of the vent tube. This would show up as a leak on top of the tranny very close to the drivers side motor/tranny mount under the air box. A leaking axle seal will produce a leak around the axle and run below it. There is the possibility that it leaked enough fluid out that the pump in the tranny is noisy. (doubtfull) you'd have to leak a decent amount of fluid for this to happen.
Keep us informed. Don't be so quick to write it off as a mechanical failure. This could be the difference in a free repair or an expensive one.
Barn Man....

 

[wildbill846]

Barn Man,

I'd like to be able to blame it on someone else, but I can't see any plausible connection. Working from present backward, here's the car's history, if it helps at all:

-Currently in shop for oil leak
-23-24 Feb: Oil Leak discovered at VIR. Not coming from exhaust. Puddle forms almost dead center under engine after coming in from pits. I was putting out a good amount of smoke on the track. No sign of leak with engine idling or revving in paddock. Rattling noise is noticed once again, at first I thought it was a heat shield vibrating, but then thought it sounded more internal.
-10-11 Feb: Brakes bled, brake pads changed and battery changed by myself. Upon start up with new battery, knocking noise heard back by engine bay. The knocking quickly turns to more of a rattle and idle is rough and loping. Idle smooths out over time and rattling eventually seems to disappear.
-18 Jan: Timing belt,water pump, drive belts replaced by dealer
-Oct 2001: Oil changed by myself
-Oct 2001: Bilstein shocks installed by dealer
-May 2001: Oil changed by dealer
-March 2001: 60,000 mile service performed by dealer

Other than one more oil change, I have no further knowledge of any servicing done as I acquired the vehicle in Nov 2000 and did not receive any service records with it. No mods on the car however.

Bill

 

[Lud]

Before you worry about spending a bunch of money, I think the first thing to do identify exactly where the car is leaking oil. Take a digital photo if possible and post it here.

Does this only happen at the track? Have you tracked the car at VIR before?

 

[wildbill846]

Speaking with the dealership again today, they can't spot any hole with the tranny in. I'm hesitant to drive an hour there just to see the same that I did back home---nothing. It's hard to tell exactly where the leak is especially since it only seems to happen when the car is moving. The puddle forms dead center if engine after driving it. Of course, after getting off the track the whole bottom is wet, so after wiping stuff down, I couldn't find any "fresh" leaks. Although this was my first track event, I've autocrossed many times and don't think this is venting or foaming oil.
The dealerships theory is that a pressure plate bolt has backed out and put a hole in the tranny case, which they are unable to see without pulling out the tranny. They say more than one pressure plate bolt had backed out. Not knowing when, where or if any tranny or clutch service had been done in the past, I don't know who to blame about that. Also, is it feasible to patch or plug a tranny case if it is indeed the problem?

Bill

[This message has been edited by wildbill846 (edited 06 March 2002).]

 

[Barn Man]

Without knowing the history of the trans, your kinda out of luck. If the oil leak only happens when your driving the car, there's a good possibility that the case is broken.
You can try JB weld on it, (Not highly recomended, but I have seen this stuff fix some bad cracks/leaks). The only problem with using JB weld is that if it doesn't fix the leak, your in for pulling it back appart and replacing the housing.

Like Lud said, check to make sure the leak is coming from the trans. The first thing to do is check the tranny fluid to make sure it's full. Take the fill plug out of the case on the drivers side just behind the axle. Then stick your finger in the hole and see if you can touch the fluid. If you pull your finger out and it's not dripping with tranny oil, you've got a tranny leak more than likely. The tranny should be full before driving it to the dealer. If the oil is leaking profusely, I'd have it trailered in to the dealer.
Barn Man...

 

[wildbill846]

I think I'm going to tell them to pull the tranny. This seems to be the only way to really know if there's a hole or not. I've got this gut feeling that that is the problem. I'll let you know what is found.

Bill

 

[wildbill846]

Ok, so the tranny is out and apparently there is a hole in the case, but the dealership says it looks like it may be repairable. I'm going to head down there tomorrow and take a look for myself. I'll take a picture or two to post here too.

Before even looking at it, I already think it would be wise to just replace the case, spend the money and save on the worry. Afterall, I'm currently in snap ring range...it would be nice to get that out of the way.

Bill

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Bill,

You mentioned repairing the case to solve the snap-ring problem, in addition to your leak. It sure sounds to me like this "leak" of yours is around the bell housing. Please keep in mind that this is NOT the case half you would change for the snap-ring, it would be the back half. If your bell housing case half is cracked, holed, whatever, you need BOTH case halves to truly fix it. If this is the case (no pun intended!) I would look into Chris's offer, or an alternative for a replacement trans complete.

Probably cheaper in the long run to get a used one and have it inspected completely, then installed.

HTH

Good Luck,
LarryB

 

[wildbill846]

Hmmm, so I broke the wrong half? Darn it. Well, Chris' offer sounds even more tempting now. I don't know if my e-mails are getting through to him though..no response...Chris, are you there?

The dealer suggested a new tranny case ($1200) and a new clutch/flywheel (apparently damaged a bit by the bolts coming out-$1300) for a total of $4200 with all the associated labor and work already done. It would be nice to upgrade while I'm at it. I'm definitely going to take a look at it tomorrow to see the carnage. I'll try to get some pics for here.


Bill

 

[CityofAngels]

Larry is right about the case halves. I replaced the snap ring side of the tranny myself after my snap ring shattered but didn't destroy the tranny - whew lucky me. New trannies are $8k w/o labor according to the local dealer. The snap-ring tranny half cost me $800. I would replace both halves since you are in there anyway and replacing the tranny after the ring goes bad is too expensive to bear. When the snap ring fails, you will feel your insides wrench and your checkbook will run for it's life.

Sorry to hear

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

I'm here, sorry if I missed an e-mail.

I'm looking for $4000 for the tranny.

The $8000 figure people quote often is the complete tranny including both case halves, gears, clutch discs, pressure plate, flywheel, diffy, and whatever else I missed.

Regards,
-- Chris

Originally posted by wildbill846:
Hmmm, so I broke the wrong half? Darn it. Well, Chris' offer sounds even more tempting now. I don't know if my e-mails are getting through to him though..no response...Chris, are you there?

The dealer suggested a new tranny case ($1200) and a new clutch/flywheel (apparently damaged a bit by the bolts coming out-$1300) for a total of $4200 with all the associated labor and work already done. It would be nice to upgrade while I'm at it. I'm definitely going to take a look at it tomorrow to see the carnage. I'll try to get some pics for here.


Bill

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http://www.NSXClassifieds.com - free NSX classifieds site!

 

[wildbill846]

Well, I've seen the damage firsthand now. There are clearly several grooves around the bell housing case as the loose bolts spun around. One groove was deep enough to go through the case and cause my leak. Three of the pressure plate bolts had come out.

I'm looking into the possibility of buying a used transmission to install. I would feel better not having to worry about a repair failing and the other half of the case is also in snap ring range. So, is there any market for the good parts of my tranny? and, What questions should I ask or things should I look for when buying a used tranny?

It was also suggested that I change the clutch as this one got a bit of oil on it and there are nicks around the pressure plate and such from the "spin cycle" bolts that fell out. I'm looking at upgrading the clutch. After looking at the FAQ's and searching the Forums, the Comptech or Dali clutches sound attractive--better performance for not too much more than I'd pay for an OEM clutch.

If anyone is really curious I did take some pictures, but I didn't think they were worth posting unless anyone really wants to see (and test my ability to get them from the digital video camera over to here)

Bill

[This message has been edited by wildbill846 (edited 19 March 2002).]

 

[Jason Weaver]

Bill, you've got mail.

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Jason

 

[Lud]

Weird. Post the pics if you can... Sounds interesting.

If I were going to replace my transmission, esp. on a 5-speed, I would buy a rebuilt unit from Mark Basch. They are better-than-new for a lot less money. He can also customize the parts (gears, R&P, etc.) for just the difference in parts cost if you like.

 

[wildbill846]

Here are the pics for the curious...
Here's the bell housing...gouges on bottom right and middle left.

Close-up of mid-left...the culprit of the leak. The crack is barely visible in this picture

The pressure plate missing bolt on left side ( three fell out total). Few nicks along plate.

[This message has been edited by wildbill846 (edited 23 March 2002).]

[This message has been edited by wildbill846 (edited 23 March 2002).]

 

[Lud]

Wow, that's no good at all! I've never heard of that happening to a factory clutch so I wonder if it was replaced and not tightened down correctly. I also can't help but think that it must have made a considerable amount of noise as the bolts hit the tranny housing!?!