NEW GEN NSX in manual or auto

[fastaussie]

DCT really does not have much to do with the handling limit of the car. I agree that it is hands down faster than a 3-pedal stick and far more consistent and allowing the driver to drive at a higher limit consistently.

while it obviously doesn't literally raise the handling ability of the suspension, chassis or other components of the car, it does allow earlier throttle application, which in turn can set the attitude of the car through weight transfer rearward. it also allows much deeper braking into corners, and much speedier shifting all the way around the track, putting more power to the ground more of the time. you can also upshift mid-corner if you desire, again putting more power to the ground. and you can also get away with mid-corner downshifts. all of those things combined allow the car to be driven at a higher limit throughout more of the lap...

 

[N Spec]

Fair enough. I'm simply saying that standard equipment compared versus standard equipment is as fair a comparison as can be had. When we start saying "well if the other car had this or that" then it ruins the comparison. And, no, I do not know every tire brand/model/etc by name. So when you say "Trofeo" or "P Zero" it really means nothing to me unless I look up the specs on the tire. But to say that DCT is the ultimate advancment in "driver's car" technology, and then say "well, the 'nferior' car had better tires; that's why it was so fast" is attributing more credit to the DCT than it deserves, when clearly, tires will make a car faster than a transmission will. And any car can get tires with zero engineering/modification work.

We all know that it's very complex and takes many variables to make a car go fast, especially around a specific road track versus a straight line.

The longer the track is and more turns involved will equal more shifts exponentially. More consistent shifts from a computer versus a fatiguing human being will help reduce decel times from each shifts and those ~50-100 shifts even per lap will add up. Stickier tires will allow the driver to push the car to higher limits and can dramatically affect lap times. The Z28 for this test was able to be pushed at the limit harder than the GTR around the track, but clearly it was destroyed during the pure acceleration test by the GTR's power, traction and shift speeds. If the Camaro was DCT, then it would have stood a better chance on the acceleration test.

I say you should go rent or test drive a 458 if possible. I think it would turn you to the DCT side. I'm convinced already, but I'd still like some time behind the wheel eventually

 

[stuntman]

while it obviously doesn't literally raise the handling ability of the suspension, chassis or other components of the car, it does allow earlier throttle application, which in turn can set the attitude of the car through weight transfer rearward. it also allows much deeper braking into corners, and much speedier shifting all the way around the track, putting more power to the ground more of the time. you can also upshift mid-corner if you desire, again putting more power to the ground. and you can also get away with mid-corner downshifts. all of those things combined allow the car to be driven at a higher limit throughout more of the lap...

DCT really has no direct effect on the handling balance of a car so it really does not allow for earlier throttle application in a corner since the on-throttle point will not change at the limit if the handling or cornering grip does not change. It also really does not have a benefit to allow a car to brake later. Maybe for a less experienced driver it can allow for later braking because downshifts are easier but by itself, DCT does not really inherently raise the braking ability of a car. It does reduce the upshift time and thus improves lap times but it does not really have an advantage on allowing upshifts or downshifts in corners over a standard synchro or dogring sequential other than the fact the upshift is executed quicker. Although for less experienced drivers, up and downshifting in corners is easier, its not a outright advantage in this area at the limit.

 

[fastaussie]

I would disagree on both counts, but that is my opinion. I believe this conversation was DCT paddle shift transmission versus regular clutch-on-floor, center console standard H pattern shifter no?

DCT gives you one thing to do with your feet in the braking zone, mash the brake pedal all the way to the floor, simple as that. both hands stay on the wheel, the car is theoretically more stable. the more stable the car is on the brakes, the sooner you can get back to the throttle.

after the apex of the corner, you have one thing to do again, mash the throttle pedal to the floor. without the clutch disengaging the flow of power, the nose stays pointed tighter where you want it. if you can shift gears more quickly (at corner exit or down the straights) then the next gear is engaged sooner, and more power is applied and driving you forward sooner. more speed down the straights, faster lap times. I'm speaking of both the highly experienced driver and the amateur. a DCT transmission has advantages for both, however it is a much more significant advantage for the amateur driver. again, in my opinion.

my simple argument is this, that having a DCT transmission redirects some of the focus required for "old school" shifting and places it on the task of driving the rest of the car, which can be done at a greater intensity level. if there was no significant advantage, Formula 1 wouldn't have been doing it for 20 years...

I say you should go rent or test drive a 458 if possible. I think it would turn you to the DCT side. I'm convinced already, but I'd still like some time behind the wheel eventually

I'm inclined to agree with N Spec (which does not happen often, so take a photo of this quickly! :biggrin, head over to Exotics Racing in Vegas or L.A. and rent a few laps in the 458. I think you fellas will be surprised and amazed at how good the current DCT system really is. it is astonishingly good. and as it's already been said, it really detracts nothing from the car, it only enhances the driving experience. you won't know until you give it a go for yourself. some of you might change your mind...

 

[jwmelvin]

...without the clutch disengaging the flow of power, the nose stays pointed tighter where you want it.

Other than the bit about "mashing" (which I take as theatrical), just to pick a nit: disengaging power on corner exit should help the nose stay pointed tighter. But I'm just trying to be sassy really. It's been an interesting discussion and I come out much like you. Valuable skills can be gained from older cars but that's no reason to stop technological progress in (i.e., handicap) modern cars.

 

[stuntman]

DCT gives you one thing to do with your feet in the braking zone, mash the brake pedal all the way to the floor, simple as that. both hands stay on the wheel, the car is theoretically more stable.

The brakes slow the car down. Not the gearbox. The limitation of the tire's grip and the brake's capacity (F&R) to keep the tires at the limit the entire time is what determines your braking zone length.

In a car with ABS, you can 'mash' the brakes in both a std trans or a DCT and there won't really be a difference in braking between the two cars. A great example is a E92 M3 which have a 6spd and DCT offering. I do agree that it's easier to keep consistent pedal pressure in a DCT (especially for a beginner) and it makes it far easier to drive under braking.

the more stable the car is on the brakes, the sooner you can get back to the throttle.

Not true. Your on throttle point is dictated by the positioning of the car, speed, angle, and the point where you get the best corner exit possible. Any deficit in braking would affect the brake zone (requiring earlier braking to compensate) to achieve the same positioning and mid-corner speed to get to the throttle at the same point and not affect your exit.

Braking stability is not really affected by the gearbox when driven properly. However a less experienced driver who cannot heel-toe downshift could induce braking stability issues when compared to a DCT.

after the apex of the corner, you have one thing to do again, mash the throttle pedal to the floor. without the clutch disengaging the flow of power, the nose stays pointed tighter where you want it.

An undistrupted power delivery in a shift (DCT) will keep the front tires unloaded and have less grip to turn the car than a slow shift where weight would be transferred to the front briefly, improving front grip during the shift.

f you can shift gears more quickly (at corner exit or down the straights) then the next gear is engaged sooner, and more power is applied and driving you forward sooner. more speed down the straights, faster lap times. I'm speaking of both the highly experienced driver and the amateur. a DCT transmission has advantages for both, however it is a much more significant advantage for the amateur driver. again, in my opinion.

my simple argument is this, that having a DCT transmission redirects some of the focus required for "old school" shifting and places it on the task of driving the rest of the car, which can be done at a greater intensity level. if there was no significant advantage, Formula 1 wouldn't have been doing it for 20 years...

Agreed.

 

[fastaussie]

I'll just continue to disagree with you on this one, I don't feel like debating all of that. I have mates who drive Indycars and World Rally cars for a living, and some other mates who work for Ferrari and McLaren who have had direct hands on development and testing of the 458, MP4 and P1. they'll tell you that having a DCT transmission in a street car allows you to break much deeper, get the power to the ground better, earlier, etc. I also spend a lot of time in a Ferrari 458 more than several times a month at the race track. I actually took Henry Ford III, the great, great grandson of the Henry Ford for a spin the other day, and he was quite speechless afterwards, citing that the mighty GT had nothing for the Ferrari.

you're correct, brakes are brakes, stopping distances should remain identical with any transmission. however it's much easier to maintain 100% braking pressure when you're not heel-and-toeing. it's much easier to control a car with both hands, instead of one on the wheel, one on the shifter. those are purely the physical aspects, and not even factoring the mental part of having additional things to do in the cockpit at the limit.

as far as understeer, depends where in the corner you are, how much throttle you are applying, your line, etc.

and if you can just get back on the throttle any time you want while trying to control a car under braking at the limit, snaking from side to side trying to back itself off the track, you must be a super duper driver.

the only point here, one we all know to be true, is that a DCT equipped car (all things equal) will be quite a bit faster than a pure manual transmission one. and again, it doesn't much matter, because the new NSX will not be offered with one...

 

[stuntman]

they'll tell you that having a DCT transmission in a street car allows you to ...get the power to the ground better, earlier, etc.

If you are referring to getting power to the ground earlier (over the period of time that includes the upshifts), I would agree since DCT shifts quicker. However DCT does not have any affect on your initial throttle application and ability for a car to gain longitudinal acceleration (power-down ability) since both of these dynamics have nothing to do with shifting.

you're correct, brakes are brakes, stopping distances should remain identical with any transmission. however it's much easier to maintain 100% braking pressure when you're not heel-and-toeing. it's much easier to control a car with both hands, instead of one on the wheel, one on the shifter. those are purely the physical aspects, and not even factoring the mental part of having additional things to do in the cockpit at the limit.

Agreed.

as far as understeer, depends where in the corner you are, how much throttle you are applying, your line, etc.

and if you can just get back on the throttle any time you want while trying to control a car under braking at the limit, snaking from side to side trying to back itself off the track, you must be a super duper driver.

You lost me there... I don't quite follow you.

 

[fastaussie]

DCT does not have any affect on your initial throttle application and ability for a car to gain longitudinal acceleration (power-down ability) since both of these dynamics have nothing to do with shifting.

no, but the sooner you can get the car under control after braking at the limit, the sooner you can get back to the throttle. in a DCT equipped car, this is easier to do since you're not dancing back and forth between three pedals. just slam the brake pedal to the floor, stop the car, control it with both hands on the wheel, and pick up the throttle and blast out. shift the next gear, and off down the straight you go. all facets of the corner entry and exit will be done more quickly with this type of transmission. I feel certain even Ayrton would agree...

 

[stuntman]

no, but the sooner you can get the car under control after braking at the limit, the sooner you can get back to the throttle. in a DCT equipped car, this is easier to do since you're not dancing back and forth between three pedals. just slam the brake pedal to the floor, stop the car, control it with both hands on the wheel, and pick up the throttle and blast out. shift the next gear, and off down the straight you go. all facets of the corner entry and exit will be done more quickly with this type of transmission. I feel certain even Ayrton would agree...

You still have to wait for the car to turn.

I'm sorry, but improved shifting speed does not improve the car's cornering capability or reduce the segment time from the last downshift on corner entry to the next upshift on corner exit.

 

[fastaussie]

stuntman, have you ever driven a 430 Scuderia, 430 GTR, 458, MP4, new Porsche 911 Turbo S, or anything with a comparable DCT on a race track at considerable speed?

 

[naaman]

I say you should go rent or test drive a 458 if possible. I think it would turn you to the DCT side. I'm convinced already, but I'd still like some time behind the wheel eventually

I can't say that I won't like it. But there are people (professional race car drivers, journalists, etc) who have driven the DCTs (including the one on the 458), and still prefer a stick/clutch. For me, since I'm not competing for money or bragging rights or anything like that, its more important to have the features that make the car fun, even if they make the car "slower."

And as long as DCTs/PDKs are only available on cars that cost more than I believe a car is worth, I will probably never feel the "need" to experience it, since renting a Ferrari for a few laps would cost as much as a 1500-mile road trip through some winding mountain roads in my old school stick shift car.

Nevertheless: this thread has yielded some great information and I'm glad to have gleaned so much from it.

 

[stuntman]

stuntman, have you ever driven a 430 Scuderia, 430 GTR, 458, MP4, new Porsche 911 Turbo S, or anything with a comparable DCT on a race track at considerable speed?

Almost all of those, more cars, and I own a DCT equipped car.

 

[fastaussie]

I find that very hard to believe, since you seem to be arguing that the only advantage to be gained from a DCT is on upshifts down straightaways...

 

[stuntman]

Its a great drivetrain technology, the way of the future, and I really like driving them and racing paddleshift gearboxes. While it has many secondary dynamic driving benefits, it does not primarily improve/affect the handling of a car or allow an earlier throttle application point.

However E-Diffs and active dampers do.

 

[fastaussie]

after spending the entire day yesterday hot lapping in a 458 Speciale, once more I am inclined to disagree with you. I get your technical points, but I do believe you are missing my actual points.

in my own opinion, freeing up some of the concentration required to operate a true clutch-on-the-floor, stick shift manual transmission allows a driver to redirect that amount of attention to other aspects of driving the car.

you can only do 100% of something at any given time. so if it requires 100% of your focus to drive a Supercar around a race track on the limit, and you remove, let’s say 30% of the thought process required for heel-and-toeing and downshifting gears by a lever while plowing into a corner at high speed, you can allocate that additional 30% to somewhere else, no?

I believe this redirection of available focus allows the car to be driven harder, more controlled and precise, more consistently, for a longer duration of time. while this is not a direct technological or mechanical benefit of a DCT transmission, I do believe it to be related to having a DCT transmission in the car. a nice (but not necessarily welcome for some future NSX buyers) side effect…

 

[stuntman]

Do you instruct for those Exotics driving days?

I agree with your recent post, I just disagreed that the cornering limits and on throttle application points would differ with DCT.

 

[JD Cross]

stuntman, fastaussie
Thank you for these posts.
I'm learning more than I would have imagined. :smile:

 

[QUICKIE]

..... in my own opinion, freeing up some of the concentration required to operate a true clutch-on-the-floor, stick shift manual transmission allows a driver to redirect that amount of attention to other aspects of driving the car. ....

I never find myself "concentrating" on shifting gears, up or down. It's just a totally automatic reaction/maneuver; Not really a conscious factor.
After all, human motor activities are controlled in the cerebral cortex of the brain.
However, I can see how some people might put more thought into the process of rowing gears.

 

[fastaussie]

I think it's more the shifting down through the gears, braking, clutching and rev matching all at the same time which requires a little bit of focus...

 

[butter78]

I think it's more the shifting down through the gears, braking, clutching and rev matching all at the same time which requires a little bit of focus...

Try driving an e gear lambo. You need some concentration for that too. If you put it in full auto it burns through the clutch. When driving it in manual it takes getting used to especially when moving after a complete stop. You need to let the car in front move ahead and then depress the pedal like you're about to drive off aggressively just to make it move ahead without jerking the car. Horrible in stop and go. It is fun on the downshifts however once in motion. The new NSX with dual plate clutch will not have this issue (an assumption since the GTR has a dual plate and is easy to drive)... But I also feel that it's this exact feature that outside of track application will make the driver feel disconnected. I heard that with the new Lamborghini Huracan they are finding ways to make the car feel more "raw" cause it's the first model of car from that moniker to sport a dual clutch and they're worried it would lack the "spirit" of its predecessors. Even the Aventador has a single. Fact of the matter remains that as much as I love having three pedals and rowing through gears I'm gonna have to get used to the idea of not having this option cause that's the direction all the manufacturers are headed.

 

[QUICKIE]

...... Fact of the matter remains that as much as I love having three pedals and rowing through gears I'm gonna have to get used to the idea of not having this option cause that's the direction all the manufacturers are headed.

I agree. The first car that I ever owned with a DCT was a 12C. The transmission has it good points, and its negative ones, IMO.

 

[fastaussie]

Try driving an e gear lambo.

I've driven them. the regular Gallardo, Superleggera and Aventador. I don't find them to be super jerky. the old F1 system in the 360 was much worse i think. but none of those transmissions are outstanding. however, you know the new DCT NSX tranny will be. so you needn't be worried...

Fact of the matter remains that as much as I love having three pedals and rowing through gears I'm gonna have to get used to the idea of not having this option cause that's the direction all the manufacturers are headed.

that is the truth, it is no longer an option...

 

[naaman]

Well, at least not for "supercars." The WRX (and it's ilk) as well as American sports/muscle cars continue to be offered with H-pattern, three-pedal configs. I actually really like the specs on the base model WRX. Looks like it would be a great little daily driver.

 

[butter78]

Well, at least not for "supercars." The WRX (and it's ilk) as well as American sports/muscle cars continue to be offered with H-pattern, three-pedal configs. I actually really like the specs on the base model WRX. Looks like it would be a great little daily driver.

With the Mitsubishi Evo being offered in DCT it's only a matter of time before Subaru does the same with their STi. As far as domestic offerings go I have 0 interest in any of em.... Well actually the Viper is pretty sweet but other than that nothing else. Prefer Japanese and Euro cars for my daily and my toy.