NSteXpo 2002 Dyno Day Report - now available!

[erobbins]

The NSteXpo 2002 Dyno Day Report is finally complete and ready for download from NSXPrime.com, and will soon be linked to from the Performance section of the "Official" NSX FAQ.

The information is presented in a "here-it-is" format. There is no twisting of the numbers, scaling of the graphs, or interpretations of the data. There are 17 vehicles with three pulls each, followed by a " Supercharger Shootout", where I compare three different 3.0L supercharged vehicles (BaschBoost, Comptech and GruppeM) against a normally aspirated vehicle of similar configuration as well as against each other.

The only disclaimer, warning, or consumer product alert that I felt was necessary to include was the fact that the BaschBoost supercharged vehicle was utilizing a pulley designed to provide about 4 lbs. of boost, yet the ECU software (fuel map, etc.) is expecting 9 lbs. of boost. I felt it was fair to note this... not because I have one on order and need to feel better about the results, but because I can imagine the sh*tstorm that is likely to pop up on certain web message boards about the performance being different than the graphs / reports on the Science of Speed or Dali Racing websites where the units are sold. Again... it's not an excuse... just the facts in a "here-it-is" format.

Quite a bit of time went into the production of this... it basically kept me busy for 24+ hours while stuck back in the cargo, cattle and tech industry employee section of the flight both to and from Japan a week ago. I hope you enjoy paging through it.

You can download the report in PDF format (4.4MB file size) from NSXPrime through this link:

http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Performance/images/NSteXpo2002_DynoReport.pdf

Thanks for the patience in waiting for this, and I hope to see you all back here in Dallas in a few months for NSXPO2002!

EDR

 

[ktan]

Thanks, that was extremely interesting - great write up. Now I need to get some work done after reading that write up!

 

[mdoan300]

Awesome report! One question though, were all the dynos (3.0L and 3.2L) done in the gear w/ the 1:1 ratio?

Michael.

 

[ncdogdoc]

Eric,

This is fabulous. Absolutely reference quality reporting. I know you spent a lot of time working on this and it shows. Thanks!!!

------------------
Gary Yates
1995 Red/Tan

 

[BryanZublin]

Great document! The last comparison plot on page 57 is probably the most interesting. It's too bad there were no Bell twin turbo NSX's available for the dyno day for comparison to the SC cars.
Bryan Zublin

------------------
Zublin Engineering
http://www.zublin.com

 

[BoneZ]

Cobb:

You should look into the dips in your Gruppe M setup. My Gruppe M dyno is a lot smoother than the one thats posted in this document.

I have a dip in mine, but its just from the VTEC opening, other than that, it looks more like the comptech line... very smooth.

Im wondering if there is something off in your setup? Are you using a different EEPROM by chance?

For those that are going to ask, yes I will post my dyno... Im just not at home to do it, im away on business.

-B

 

[Number9]

Great work Eric. Now that you've whetted everyone's appetite, we still need to see a full standard spec BBSC (i.e., one with the final pulley that will be shipping with the kit), a 9-lb boost CT, and whatever the latest and greatest GruppeM happens to be.

If anyone in NorCal has a late-beta or production BBSC, we could probably do this comparo here in NorCal. Frey Racing has a dyno and they're not that far from the monthly club lunch. BoneZ, you interested?

 

[nsxxtreme]

Originally posted by Lud:
What in the world is going on with Vehicle #4???

I was wondering the same thing.

 

[BoneZ]

Sure im interested... ive got no problems throwing my car onto a Dyno for a shootout.

-B

 

[Number9]

Originally posted by BoneZ:
Sure im interested... ive got no problems throwing my car onto a Dyno for a shootout.
-B

Just called Frey Racing but unfortunately they sold their dynojet to a shop called The Mustang Ranch and aren't aware of any other dyno in the Milpitas area. Guess we'll have to wait a bit more to see how a production BBSC unit graphs.

 

[grippgoat]

I actually noticed quite a few of the early-model NSXes had VERY shaky torque curves that dropped off quite a bit at high RPM, causing abnormally low HP numbers. I'm guessing those cars could probably stand to have some cleaning done, like new air filter, throttle body/intake tract, injectors, and maybe even have things like their cats, fuel pumps, FPRs, etc checked out. It would also have been interesting to see air/fuel numbers for those cars.

I also noticed there was one car with a Fram air filter and RM headers posting suspiciously low numbers, with its torque dropping off at high RPM like it didn't even have headers... Would have been quite interesting to see that car run with someone else's filter to see what happened.

I'd love to see the Basch boost run with a proper ECU setup. +100hp on 6psi with 9psi worth of fuel and timing.... yummy.

I still want to see someone take off (or disable or force closed or whatever) the secondary intake chamber on a BBSC dyno run.

-Mike

[This message has been edited by grippgoat (edited 01 May 2002).]

 

[nsx1164]

Comparing the two CTSC cars:

#14 (Saint?): RED 95 3.0 with 6# CTSC
- i/h/e (RM exhaust)

#16 (PO'd guy

): YELLOW 01 3.2 with 6# CTSC
- i/h/e (all CT)

#14 consistently out performs #16
- is there some "secret-mod" with #14 (tuning, larger injectors, better chip program) ??
- is either one yielding more "typical" results ... from earlier anecdotal evidence, it seems that most CTSC setups perform like #16

 

[NetViper]

Wow... incredible report! One of the best I have ever seen.

WOW.. NOS rules. What a difference. Now who is going to run SC plus NOS?? !!

One more question. The torque curve of the Comptech and Gruppe M is much flatter than the BB. Will the Torque Curve change on the BB when it is running with the correct amount of boost?
------------------
NetViper -= 100% Stock EBP 2000 Civic Si =- Still looking to get an NSX, but at least I can live life at 8,000 RPM!

[This message has been edited by NetViper (edited 01 May 2002).]

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

WOW.. NOS rules. What a difference. Now who is going to run SC plus NOS?? !!

We have been spraying with the CTSC 6lb kit for a few months now. All I can say is wow! A few others on this board have experienced it and I am sure they can vouch for the rush. Is there a self help seminar we could attend?

Speed Safely,

Factor X Motorsports
CTSC 6lb. kit 400++rwhp w/ 340++ft/lbs. at 3,500rpms

 

[Owens]

Wow, there is a big difference in the low end and mid range power of the Basch boost and the GMSC and Comptech. Goes to show that you can't just look at the final numbers. That is the difference in the blower designs.

 

[BoneZ]

Im in the process of finishing my Gruppe M + NOS setup.

Just setting the fuel system for the NOS vs Non-NOS modes.

I'll post dyno's of both modes when its all said and done.

-B

 

[ilya]

That NA vs. BB graph confirmed my seat of the pants impression. When I rode in the BB car, I thought it felt stock until it hit 5500RPM where it took off. Looking at that graph confirmed my feeling. The HP and Torque curves are almost identical to NA until 5500RPM.

The seat of my pants are grinning.

Um... wait... that didn't sound right at
all.

 

[erobbins]

Originally posted by nsx1164:
Comparing the two CTSC cars:

#14 (Saint?): RED 95 3.0 with 6# CTSC
- i/h/e (RM exhaust)

Umm... could be. I didn't include owner names in the interest of privacy.

#16 (PO'd guy

): YELLOW 01 3.2 with 6# CTSC
- i/h/e (all CT)

Umm... he might be. This was interesting... that the all Comptech vehicle with a 3.2L engine performed lower than expected. It may be a supercharger belt thing (not generating enough boost), but I don't know if you would see something more screwy on the plot if that were the case. The owner wasn't there for the event - Goodson Acura (an event AND NSXPO2002 sponsor, I remind you) had their service manager bring the car over for him.

- is there some "secret-mod" with #14 (tuning, larger injectors, better chip program) ??

Well... I watched Mark Basch do a 60K service and a timing belt job to it recently... maybe he sprinkled some pixie dust in the cylinders.

EDR

 

[erobbins]

Originally posted by NetViper:
Will the Torque Curve change on the BB when it is running with the correct amount of boost?

This is a question for Mark Basch (NSXTech) or Mark Johnson (NSXGOD). Be forewarned: MJ will probably give his standard answer: "I don't know anything technical about these darn cars... I just drive 'em fast... ask MB".

Just kidding. I'm only speculating here, but I imagine you will see a similar "curve", with higher numbers after about 4500-5000RPM when the blower starts generating boost. I wouldn't be surprised if the curves (as compared to the CTSC or the GMSC) converge at a much earlier point.

The proof will be in the pudding, though... regardless of torque curves. Want to see which of these cars are up to snuff and compare it to your own? Come out to NSXPO2002 in early November here in Dallas and put it on the track. We have a short, techincal course AND a long, fast track to play on for 3 days.

EDR

 

[erobbins]

Originally posted by ilya:
The seat of my pants are grinning.

Um... wait... that didn't sound right at
all.

You wouldn't have wanted to see the seat of my pants after driving the Dali Racing / Basch Acura NSX with the BaschBoost supercharger AND Mark Basch's Tarox big brake kit... it stops with what felt like 3Gs of force, and it all fits under OEM 16/17" wheels. Simply amazing.

EDR

 

[NSXTC]

I believe the torque curve would improve (i.e. come in earlier) with a higher boost pulley. On a centrifugal SC like the BB, the amount of boost is proportional to the RPM, here the speed that the impeller spins, just like a turbo. With a higher boost pulley, the BBSC impeller is spinning faster than the larger pulley at any given engine RPM. The 9 PSI BBSC is going to be INSANELY fast!!

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

It's too bad Mark didn't have the correct pulley in time for the dyno session. I believe my results are more applicable to real world results because of this.

As I like to say, each product has a different intended customer. Personally, the performance of a supercharger on the track is more important to me than burning rubber on the boulevard. Here is how I looked at the data:

I dynoed my car last week. I am running the production fuel system and production 6lbs pulley. My car has an the TAITEC exhaust and Comptech headers. My car is similar to Mark's engine wise and breathing wise (same headers, same intake, aftermarket exhausts)with a couple differences:

1. my car has the 6lbs pulley. Not only am I getting more boost than Mark's car was, but the A/F ratio is more optimized to my car which means it is not running as rich and therefore running more power due to the optimized burn (rich = less power than a safe but leaner burning car).

2. I am running low compression pistons (9.5:1) that reduced power output by about 10hp from last dyno run. These forged pistons were installed in preparation for running more boost and an aftercooler.

Comparing the dynos, we can look at the power points between 6000 RPM and 7500 RPM (I choose 7500 RPM since the dyno operator lifted early). I spend most of my time in this range at the track.

Remember that my car is putting out slightly less power with the production pulley since I am running a lower compression ratio.


GMSC (Vehicle #12):
6000 RPM RWHP - 280
RWTQ - 250

7500 RPM RWHP - 325
RWTQ - 225

CTSC (Vehicle #14):
6000 RPM RWHP - 270
RWTQ - 240

7500 RPM RWHP - 325
RWTQ - 235

BBSC (SoS NSX):
6000 RPM RWHP - 325
RWTQ - 220

7500 RPM RWHP - 370
RWTQ - 245

Disclaimers: Note that I took the dyno graph from the strongest CTSC and GMSC for this analysis. Also, note that my numbers below are derived from trying my best to read the data point on a very small graph. I'll post my dyno graph shortly. The best scanario would be for my car to have been run on the same dyno by the same operator on the same day, but unfortunately that could not be done. However, note that the dynos were the same brand and model. Again, keep in mind, that with factory compression, my car would in theory be putting out even more power than the results above.

Regards,
-- Chris

------------------

 

[4g62bt2c30a]

How about a comparison at 5k?

 

[cojones]

Chris, if you send EDR your data points (500 rpm intervals should be fine), he should be able to get these plotted on the same comparo graph, so we can get a sense for relative magnitude as well as slope/shape.

From the initial NSteXpo graphs it seems that the 3.0L CTSC setup had the most "stock-like" increase -- most consistent across the board, and best RWT figures.

 

[grippgoat]

Chris, I think you've got a problem with your numbers. The torque figures don't quite match the HP figures in some cases (BBSC is way off). Below is the calculated torque figure working from hp.

Torque = 5252 * hp / rpm

Chris's torque numbers are in parentheses.

GMSC:
280 @ 6000 = 245 (250)
325 @ 7500 = 227 (225)

CTSC:
270 @ 6000 = 236 (240)
325 @ 7500 = 227 (235)

BBSC:
325 @ 6000 = 284 (220)
370 @ 7500 = 259 (245)

So I don't know if you were reading the graphs separately and which is more correct (your hp or torque figures), but you're definitely way off on one or the other for the BBSC and the CTSC's 7500rpm figure.

-Mike

[This message has been edited by grippgoat (edited 01 May 2002).]