NSX Dynojet with OEM / Dali /ProSpeed Stage 3 chips

[MvM]

Last Saturday I had my car dynoed on a Dynojet during a dyno-day.
I had the chance to test all the three chips I have which are the original Honda OEM chip, the Dali Hotchip and the new ProSpeed Stage 3 which I received just one week ago.
My car is a a '94 model NSX with the standard 5-gear clutch, standard flywheel and 3.0 liter engine It has the following modifications.

- Taitec stainless steel headers
- Taitec GTLW exhaust
- Cantrell air-intake
- UNI-filter (just cleaned)
- ScienceofSpeed big bore throttle body
- OZ Ultraleggera 17/18 wheels, 265/35/18 Falken FK452 tires

I drove the car to the dyno with the Dali hotchip in it, which I have been using for a couple of years now.

This was put on the the Dyno first for two runs. Then the chip was replaced with the new ProSpeed Stage 3 and dynoed, followed by another swap with the Honda OEM chip.

Between each chip, the car was revved a couple of times to give the car the chance to learn the new ECU. I had specifically asked Brian from ProSpeed for the best way to do this and he told me it should be enough to let the car rev a couple of times before dynoing.
After every swap, it was immediately evident the AF-ratio was different for each chip.
However, the final results were not. All the results are corrected to DIN HP, which is the standard in Europe. Results are given as RWHP.

- Dali hotchip (GREEN line) - max: 274.8 RWHP - torque 287.8 Nm
- ProSpeed Stage 3 (RED line) - max: 275.7 RWHP - torque 288.1 Nm
- Honda OEM (BLUE line) - max: 273.2 RWHP - torque 282.6 Nm.

Here are the graphs

To say that I was a little surprised is not necessary I think. In all cases, the three chips were actually very, VERY close. The biggest noticable differences were that the AF-ratio with both the ProSpeed chip and the OEM chip was a little rich whereas the Dali-chip was very even.
Other than that, the differences are too small to be really signficant.

Actually, I had expected the differences between the chips to be larger than this. Ok, the ProSpeed Stage 3 had the highest output, but the difference was only 2 HP on these runs which is simply not noticable.

Unfortunately, the people from the Dynoject could not do an export of the raw data-tables which I normally ask for so put the output in Excel. So in this case, I only have the graph as posted here.

I am still planning to do some acceleration runs with my AP22 in second gear to see if there are any measurable differences there, following the same procedure as I have used before to measure the differences between heavy and light wheels. Hopefully, there will be some differences there.

 

[Aaron94T]

Very interesting test, thanks for taking the time to post the rusults. It looks like money spent on chips is not money well spent.

 

[KooLaid]

Wow, very cool of you to run that test. Thank you

 

[Jetpilot3]

Wow! You are running almost the identical setup to my 91 NSX:

Taitec Headers
Taitec Exhaust
Cantrell AIS and UNI filter
Science of Speed Big Bore throttle body

but...I also have
RC Injectors
Science of Speed ECU
Walboro Fuel Pump
Science of Speed tuned intake manifold
Lightened Flywheel
AEM Fuel Pressure Regulator

I wonder if these additional items would increase HP?

 

[Prospeed]

Hi Maarten,

To clarify I recommend at least 4 to 5 passes for it to learn properly. I guarantee you will see greater gains if you do. I don't expect you to spend the money to dyno again but i highly recommend following the steps below to really show what the ROM can do. Here is what I said when we pm'ed each other. What happens from what I have seen is that the ecu will try its best to trim for the original ROM in the ecu. It needs to relearn the new maps and results show. I have tested back to back for local guys by just swapping the roms and all have shown results. Let me know about the real world test and again follow the procedure below and you will see the results! :smile:

"Hi, I recommend putting in your stock rom first. Drive it to the dyno with the stock rom to give it time to learn. Make 2 to 3 runs with the stock rom then put in the stage 3 rom and make at least 4 to 5 roms giving it time to learn on the dyno this allows it to get up to operating temp which will show the best results. I've seen the most consistent results that way. Let me know how it goes! Thanks.

Brian"

 

[MvM]

Wow! You are running almost the identical setup to my 91 NSX:

Taitec Headers
Taitec Exhaust
Cantrell AIS and UNI filter
Science of Speed Big Bore throttle body

but...I also have
RC Injectors
Science of Speed ECU
Walboro Fuel Pump
Science of Speed tuned intake manifold
Lightened Flywheel
AEM Fuel Pressure Regulator

I wonder if these additional items would increase HP?

Difficult to say I think.
I was told by SOS that the ScienceofSpeed ECU is very similar to the Dali Hotchip. Am not sure if the RC Injectors together with the Fuel pump would make any difference.
I am most definately not an expert, but as long as the OEM injectors and pump are functioning ok and have no trouble to keep with your fuel demand, I would think it would not make any difference.
The tuned intake manifold with the BBTB might make a very slight difference in getting the most from any positive effects from the air-intake side.

However, I also know that when NSX 3.0 had the SOS camshafts installed, he gained some significant HP's after he had a fuel pressure regulator installed.

Would be nice if you could do a back-to-back dyno with the OEM chip, just to compare.

 

[nsxhk]

You got one strong motor there.

Henry.

 

[MJK]

Thank you for posting this. Hard data is difficult to come by these days.

 

[MvM]

Thank you for posting this. Hard data is difficult to come by these days.

No problem.
However, it seems that I have been just too quick with the dyno after every swap. According to the info from ProSpeed, I should probably have done more runs between each dynorun to give the ECU more time to adjust for the new chip. Not giving it enough time to adjust to the new parameters might be the reason why all these chips gave results which were that close.

So, when I will have time, I will redo the test with more time between the actual dyno runs to allow the car.
I also plan to do some acceleration test with an AP22 acceleration device. When doing that, the car should definately have enough time because I would have to fill up the tank between the runs to minimize all external influences. After all, in the end, it's all about the performance on the street what we are looking for, not just the results from a dyno.

 

[Prospeed]

No problem.
However, it seems that I have been just too quick with the dyno after every swap. According to the info from ProSpeed, I should probably have done more runs between each dynorun to give the ECU more time to adjust for the new chip. Not giving it enough time to adjust to the new parameters might be the reason why all these chips gave results which were that close.

So, when I will have time, I will redo the test with more time between the actual dyno runs to allow the car.
I also plan to do some acceleration test with an AP22 acceleration device. When doing that, the car should definately have enough time because I would have to fill up the tank between the runs to minimize all external influences. After all, in the end, it's all about the performance on the street what we are looking for, not just the results from a dyno.

You are correct Maarten, It is about real life performance. The dyno is only part of the equation.

You can also remove the ecu fuse to allow the ecu to erase any previous data or dissconnect the ecu plugs which powers the ecu. Still give it a few full runs to allow it to get up to temps. I was curious that they all look nearly identical even with a/f ratios that were so different. So something is going on there. Once you do your acceleration test we will see some hard data. :smile:

 

[MJK]

If you elect to do this again, might I suggest a procedure similar/identical to the great chip off.

FWIW, I am skeptical of Prospeed's claims. They have a dog in this fight and claim to be able to do what no other chip MFR could do in the 17years since the NSX came out. Dinan, Comptech, RM, Dali, Autoauthority, etc. - none of them ever got what prospeed is claiming. As for the other 'real world gains' a higher rev limit would be the only one I can think of not measured on a dyno.

 

[Prospeed]

If you elect to do this again, might I suggest a procedure similar/identical to the great chip off.

FWIW, I am skeptical of Prospeed's claims. They have a dog in this fight and claim to be able to do what no other chip MFR could do in the 17years since the NSX came out. Dinan, Comptech, RM, Dali, Autoauthority, etc. - none of them ever got what prospeed is claiming. As for the other 'real world gains' a higher rev limit would be the only one I can think of not measured on a dyno.

I understand your skepticism however the gains and results are real and not skewed. We have dyno'd back to back numerous customers with results (customers are there to see us make a pass with stock rom vs. Prospeed rom). Some gain more other gain less. Every car is slightly different but everytime our rom provides an increase in hp and torque when dyno'd properly(proper steps for the ecu to relearn). The great chip off procedure would work as well. The most important thing is for the ecu to relearn the rom chip. The original steps MvM took did not properly allow the ecu to relearn. And for the 'real world gains', the dyno doesnt show you part throttle tuning at any other rpm other then wide open throttle. A/F ratios need to be proper throughout the fuel maps. If you are driving your car everyday or track your car you will be at part throttle for 90% of the time... or even more.

 

[NSXGeek!]

Since the factory ECU goes into open loop when the car is at wide open throttle, why would you described procedure below make a difference? In open loop, the car does not make fuel trims so any "learning" should be irrelevant.

Hi Maarten,

To clarify I recommend at least 4 to 5 passes for it to learn properly. I guarantee you will see greater gains if you do. I don't expect you to spend the money to dyno again but i highly recommend following the steps below to really show what the ROM can do. Here is what I said when we pm'ed each other. What happens from what I have seen is that the ecu will try its best to trim for the original ROM in the ecu. It needs to relearn the new maps and results show. I have tested back to back for local guys by just swapping the roms and all have shown results. Let me know about the real world test and again follow the procedure below and you will see the results! :smile:

"Hi, I recommend putting in your stock rom first. Drive it to the dyno with the stock rom to give it time to learn. Make 2 to 3 runs with the stock rom then put in the stage 3 rom and make at least 4 to 5 roms giving it time to learn on the dyno this allows it to get up to operating temp which will show the best results. I've seen the most consistent results that way. Let me know how it goes! Thanks.

Brian"

 

[NSXGMS]

Very interesting test, thanks for taking the time to post the rusults. It looks like money spent on chips is not money well spent.

This is basically my position on the matter. I've seen enough dynos to say that it appears the Dali chip and Prospeed chips do increase hp but that amount varies greatly between NSXs. The average gains based on all the dynos I've seen are less than 3hp. Some NSXs gain, others really don't.

Just shows how good the universal stock tune is. At a cost of $300+ and an average gain of less than 3 hp chips consistently appear to be above the average cost of $100/hp for the NSX.

I would classify it as money not well spent but if you're interested in squeezing out as much hp as possible whatever the cost then go for it. Personally I like the increased rev limit the Dali chip gives you in addition to 1-2 hp on average.

 

[KooLaid]

But with the increased rev limiter, you should upgrade the oil pump from what dali says. That's what I don't like about the chip. I would however, wouldn't mind another <200 rpm extra so I don't hit the limiter as often. I know, I know, shifting at redline doesn't mean highest performance.....

 

[NSXGMS]

But with the increased rev limiter, you should upgrade the oil pump from what dali says. That's what I don't like about the chip. I would however, wouldn't mind another <200 rpm extra so I don't hit the limiter as often. I know, I know, shifting at redline doesn't mean highest performance.....

MJ didn't mention that to me but it definitely couldn't hurt to do that.

 

[KooLaid]

click on "REV limiter INFO"

http://www.daliracing.com/v666-5/catalog/go_faster/super_chip.cfm?focus=438-

 

[NSXGMS]

click on "REV limiter INFO"

http://www.daliracing.com/v666-5/catalog/go_faster/super_chip.cfm?focus=438-

Ah, just the upgraded oil pump gear. I already have one. :wink: