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Oil Coolers?
- Thread starter Ponyboy
- Start date
I'm designing one at the moment. Dan Tobie is also designing one with water cooled. I opted not to use water cooled as it will be so much harder to route the water and getting auxiliary water pump.
[This message has been edited by Andrie Hartanto (edited 22 October 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Andrie Hartanto (edited 22 October 2001).]
I have no problem sharing the design. But it is still preliminary, way too early. Still need to find out if all the stuff will fit nicely inside the car. And the most important thing, is if the oil pump will be sufficient or I need to add another one if I put the cooler all the way in the nose of the car.
So far, I have a sandwich adapter, 3 different size and brand of cooler, 2 type of thermostat.
So far, I have a sandwich adapter, 3 different size and brand of cooler, 2 type of thermostat.
Andrie -- I'm interested in one as well. I would like to run an oil cooler in preparation for track events in CA next season.
There are a couple routes to go. I would prefer to not use a front mounted kit to keep things simple. My plan of attack is such:
1. Install oil temp probe to measure temps before and after.
2. Install large capacity oil pan to offer more cooling area on the oil pan alone.
3. Install air cooled oil cooler in right fender well.
4a. Either run lines with oil filter adaptor or
4b. Run aux. oil pump to circulate oil from oil pan, to oil cooler, and back to oil pan.
I want to keep things as simple as possible. A tuner at NSXPO suggested the fender setup as one of the more easy setups. I'm unsure, however, if the stock oil pump has enough pressure to support circulation through the cooler, and I don't want to gamble with oil starvation.
David (of turbo NSX fame) do you currently use a cooler?
Regards,
-- Chris
------------------
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There are a couple routes to go. I would prefer to not use a front mounted kit to keep things simple. My plan of attack is such:
1. Install oil temp probe to measure temps before and after.
2. Install large capacity oil pan to offer more cooling area on the oil pan alone.
3. Install air cooled oil cooler in right fender well.
4a. Either run lines with oil filter adaptor or
4b. Run aux. oil pump to circulate oil from oil pan, to oil cooler, and back to oil pan.
I want to keep things as simple as possible. A tuner at NSXPO suggested the fender setup as one of the more easy setups. I'm unsure, however, if the stock oil pump has enough pressure to support circulation through the cooler, and I don't want to gamble with oil starvation.
David (of turbo NSX fame) do you currently use a cooler?
Regards,
-- Chris
------------------
www.ScienceofSpeed.com - Click for more info
www.NSXClassifieds.com - The internet's only exclusive NSX Classified site!
Chris,
I would like to keep thing simple too. But the flow into the cabin from the fender hole is very minimal. I was also thinking of mounting there anyway with the help of electrical fan to suck air into the cooler, same set up as radiator. But room is very premium there.
The problem with the NSX is the oil temp. gets way to high, to about 300F. Most coolers will only get u to lower the temp to about 40-50 degree providing efficient air travel.
I don't think an extra capacity oil pan will do much help. the cooler will run an extra quart and prevent the thermal brakdown. Pan baffle is what most important. I've seen my oil pressure drop so low in one of the turn here in thunderhill. If all of u seen the hot version NSX battle video on this site, they all know what I'm talking about.
The other issue I have is if I'm running the sandwich adapter, I might have to use the short oil filter like the legend uses.
I would like to keep thing simple too. But the flow into the cabin from the fender hole is very minimal. I was also thinking of mounting there anyway with the help of electrical fan to suck air into the cooler, same set up as radiator. But room is very premium there.
The problem with the NSX is the oil temp. gets way to high, to about 300F. Most coolers will only get u to lower the temp to about 40-50 degree providing efficient air travel.
I don't think an extra capacity oil pan will do much help. the cooler will run an extra quart and prevent the thermal brakdown. Pan baffle is what most important. I've seen my oil pressure drop so low in one of the turn here in thunderhill. If all of u seen the hot version NSX battle video on this site, they all know what I'm talking about.
The other issue I have is if I'm running the sandwich adapter, I might have to use the short oil filter like the legend uses.
I saw a Hot version video where they mounted an Oil Cooler underneath the car on one of the crossmembers. I dont know exactly how they did it, but I'm sure I can find out.
Also, the most recent Best Motoring Video (10/01) They did another Endurance Battle. 2x20 minute heats. Running at the absolute max, the NSX had very little problems staying under the Manufacturer recommended 140C temperature range. I would think that an oil Cooler would be wholly unnecessary, especially if you have a larger oil pan and High Volume Oil pump installed.
Also, the most recent Best Motoring Video (10/01) They did another Endurance Battle. 2x20 minute heats. Running at the absolute max, the NSX had very little problems staying under the Manufacturer recommended 140C temperature range. I would think that an oil Cooler would be wholly unnecessary, especially if you have a larger oil pan and High Volume Oil pump installed.
Edo,
140C? That is almost 310F. Which oil manufacturer recommends that temperature range? 10W-30 has recommended operating temperature up to 250F.
All race car engineer I talked to recommends oil temperature in 190-210F range. My M3 in race consition run the hottest to be 230F.
I also talked to Comptech, and they don't even recommend high volume oil pump if u drive your car mostly on the street. They said it will pump too much oil up, there is no pressure build during low rpm especially at idle.
I really think the larger oil pan are overrated. If the temperature gets high enough, thermal breakdown will still occurs no matter how much oil in there.
140C? That is almost 310F. Which oil manufacturer recommends that temperature range? 10W-30 has recommended operating temperature up to 250F.
All race car engineer I talked to recommends oil temperature in 190-210F range. My M3 in race consition run the hottest to be 230F.
I also talked to Comptech, and they don't even recommend high volume oil pump if u drive your car mostly on the street. They said it will pump too much oil up, there is no pressure build during low rpm especially at idle.
I really think the larger oil pan are overrated. If the temperature gets high enough, thermal breakdown will still occurs no matter how much oil in there.
140C? That is almost 310F. Which oil manufacturer recommends that temperature range? 10W-30 has recommended operating temperature up to 250F.
Synthetic oil can take heat up to 450°F or more. Source: http://chicagotribune.com/classified/automotive/columnists/chi-0110220065oct22.column
For example, the product data sheet on Mobil's website shows the flash point for Mobil 1 10W30 as 470°F (ASTM D 92) or 430 °F (ASTM D 93).
[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 23 October 2001).]
Synthetic oil can take heat up to 450°F or more. Source: http://chicagotribune.com/classified/automotive/columnists/chi-0110220065oct22.column
For example, the product data sheet on Mobil's website shows the flash point for Mobil 1 10W30 as 470°F (ASTM D 92) or 430 °F (ASTM D 93).
[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 23 October 2001).]
Each application will be different. My car will be somewhat unique in that I'll be running in 100+ degree weather with forced induction.
Cheers,
-- Chris
------------------
www.ScienceofSpeed.com - Click for more info
www.NSXClassifieds.com - The internet's only exclusive NSX Classified site!
Cheers,
-- Chris
------------------
www.ScienceofSpeed.com - Click for more info
www.NSXClassifieds.com - The internet's only exclusive NSX Classified site!
Ken, I'm not an experts on oil, but here is my take on oil.
If I recall correctly, flash points is the points where the oil breakdown happens. Mobil table is barely helpful to determine the correct oil to use.
Some important aspect in selecting proper oils are:
1. Viscosity stability at operating speed and accross operating temperature. Most oils lose considerable viscosity at high rpms and high temperatures.
2. Rate of evaporation. Most wide-range multigrades oil are very bad in this aspect.
3. Thermal stability
That's all I can remember at this points. I know I should have pay more attention to materials and chemistry when I was in college
[This message has been edited by Andrie Hartanto (edited 23 October 2001).]
If I recall correctly, flash points is the points where the oil breakdown happens. Mobil table is barely helpful to determine the correct oil to use.
Some important aspect in selecting proper oils are:
1. Viscosity stability at operating speed and accross operating temperature. Most oils lose considerable viscosity at high rpms and high temperatures.
2. Rate of evaporation. Most wide-range multigrades oil are very bad in this aspect.
3. Thermal stability
That's all I can remember at this points. I know I should have pay more attention to materials and chemistry when I was in college
[This message has been edited by Andrie Hartanto (edited 23 October 2001).]
Andrie,
I dont know which oil they were running, but BM typically tried to run their cars as close to stock as possible. I can send you a copy of the video if you'd like, but Honda of Japan recommends 140C as the max oil temp in the NSX, the same goes for the Integra Type-R. I am taking what BM says as gospel. I have no literature to prove that 140C is ok. All I know is that they took the Manufacturer recommended limit and used it as their limit before backing off on the cars.
Also they were using an NSX Type-S-Zero.
I dont think that would make a difference though.
BTW, on a side note the Skyline GT-R that was using NISMO Oil Cooler STILL ran to as hot as 130C or so before it blew its clutch.
[This message has been edited by Edo (edited 23 October 2001).]
I dont know which oil they were running, but BM typically tried to run their cars as close to stock as possible. I can send you a copy of the video if you'd like, but Honda of Japan recommends 140C as the max oil temp in the NSX, the same goes for the Integra Type-R. I am taking what BM says as gospel. I have no literature to prove that 140C is ok. All I know is that they took the Manufacturer recommended limit and used it as their limit before backing off on the cars.
Also they were using an NSX Type-S-Zero.
I dont think that would make a difference though.
BTW, on a side note the Skyline GT-R that was using NISMO Oil Cooler STILL ran to as hot as 130C or so before it blew its clutch.
[This message has been edited by Edo (edited 23 October 2001).]
I'm sure they know what they are doing. But their tests are gear toward the use of street use even though they tested it at the track.
For extended period of track use, who knows what the effect can be.
Another interesting point is all FWD Honda design motors have the exhaust manifold infront of the engine (very front nose of the car). Which require the headers to be run underneath the engine and oil pan. Thus contributing to heat to the oil pan.
The new RSX finally have the exhaust manifold behind the engine (just in front of the firewall). Does this means Honda realize how much the header contributed to the oil heating?
Amazing, a turbo car, that require an oil line thru the turbo that can be extremely hot is running lower oil temperature than the NSX
This test was done on the track and was geared for the track. I think a 20 minute run at Tsukuba Circuit at 100% of the car's potential constitutes a pretty good estimation of a car's potential to race at the track. Keep in mind 3 of the 7 cars tested didnt even finish the first 20 minute heat to make it to the second 20minute heat (Done on R compounds as opposed to Street tires for the first heat).
The cars entered were
R34 Nissan Skyline GT-R (retired)
Honda NSX Type S-Zero (1st place)
Honda Integra (RSX) Type-R (last place)
Mistubishi Lancer Evo VII (Retired)
Mazda RX-7 Twin Turbo (Retired)
E46 BMW M3 (3rd plce)
Subaru Impreza WRX Sti (2nd place)
If 3 of these high end sports cars could NOT finish the 2 heats I would assume that BM did a VERY good test of what a car's potential is at the track. Not merely for the street.
And in regards to the Skyline Oil temp, I HOPE it runs cooler than a non-oil cooled car. They said the Oil Cooler they used was the same one used on most of the Race Skyline's (Calsonic/Zexel)
The cars entered were
R34 Nissan Skyline GT-R (retired)
Honda NSX Type S-Zero (1st place)
Honda Integra (RSX) Type-R (last place)
Mistubishi Lancer Evo VII (Retired)
Mazda RX-7 Twin Turbo (Retired)
E46 BMW M3 (3rd plce)
Subaru Impreza WRX Sti (2nd place)
If 3 of these high end sports cars could NOT finish the 2 heats I would assume that BM did a VERY good test of what a car's potential is at the track. Not merely for the street.
And in regards to the Skyline Oil temp, I HOPE it runs cooler than a non-oil cooled car. They said the Oil Cooler they used was the same one used on most of the Race Skyline's (Calsonic/Zexel)
Edo, I stand corrected.
Now, would u mind sending me a copy or can I borrow the tape? Do u have any more interesting tape I can borrow?
Now, would u mind sending me a copy or can I borrow the tape? Do u have any more interesting tape I can borrow?
I think I have copies of the last 3 Enduro battles they did. Last year's was a 2 heat 15 lap race with lower Oil temp limits and water temp limits. This year it appears the manufacturers raised their limits on some cars. In Any case I can get a copy out to you pretty quick if you want. I think Lud has my copy of the 2x15lap race. You might see if he can send it to you.
Edo,
you are right, I bonehead in the conversion. I added the 32degree before times the 9/5. I should time it first then add 32.
Heck, like I said, college time was a while back
you are right, I bonehead in the conversion. I added the 32degree before times the 9/5. I should time it first then add 32.
Heck, like I said, college time was a while back
Its ok Andrie,
I always knew you had Bonehead tendencies
Especially since I saw you riding around the paddock at Laguna Seca on a Razor Scooter.
I always knew you had Bonehead tendencies
Especially since I saw you riding around the paddock at Laguna Seca on a Razor Scooter.
Hey becareful there.
I won two races with the scooter. One of them was with Steve Dinan (the famous BMW tuner) and he insisted on checking the scooter and accuse me of cheating
I won two races with the scooter. One of them was with Steve Dinan (the famous BMW tuner) and he insisted on checking the scooter and accuse me of cheating
Redline's website claims that its synthetic motor oil can operate at temperatures of 600°F before breakdown, and that this is 100°F more than that of other synthetic motor oils.
Just ran a Sears Point event with a temp probe straped to the oil filter. A 65 deg with moderate abuse of the engine came up with 220 for the high with a mean of 218F. Almost ALL race teams I have talked to (inc. realtime) use 240F as the limit temp. Mark J tested several cars at a So Cal event and came up with 310 to 290 deg F. I am on the fence right now to go with air or closed loop water (6x more eff.). I have the extra front water radiator installed and might use it for the SC or Turbo after cooler. The water system will have a oil/water heat exchanger in the right rear wheel well and 2 small water pumps driving the water up front and back. Aprox. total weight 11.5 without the water. I think you can use a Setrab type in the front of the car as they will work best if they are directly located in ambient airstream. IF you use #10 or 1/2" oil lines thruout, I do think you will have min. line pressure loss. If I go that route I will use as much aluminum tubing as possible as to keep the weight and cost down. The Earls and Aeroquip ss hose is expensive and heavy. You just need to find aircraft tubing fitings a bender and flair tool. Also it would be a good idea to insulate the return line as it runs thru the center tunnel. One other thing that will help is a thermal shield between the front header and the oil pan. I welded on three bungs and made a stand off aluminum type. I know of but have not used a self stick on type and they also make a header wrap. Dan
Perhaps there is an alternative solution ......?
Bumping this thread to see if there has been any updates.
I and some other locals are using and testing EXP4 from Advanced Fluid Solutions on and off the track.
http://www.exp4additives.com
Sports Car Revolution on Speed Channel independently evaluated this product on a Dyno and concluded it added 5% more HP and also - they tested it on a pick up truck though. Reduction in oil temp was not recorded because the truck had inbuilt coolers for cooling oil. This did not allow for any reduction.
EXP4 reports that it will reduce oil temps between 30-40F. We will test this on the track very soon using Castrol Synthetic oil. Both in a NA and Comptech SC NSX.
Disclaimer: As of a few weeks ago, KHrant Enterprises is EXP4's exclusive West Coast representative and motorsports promoter ....... if you are a racer, talk to me ..... ;-)
Bumping this thread to see if there has been any updates.
I and some other locals are using and testing EXP4 from Advanced Fluid Solutions on and off the track.
http://www.exp4additives.com
Sports Car Revolution on Speed Channel independently evaluated this product on a Dyno and concluded it added 5% more HP and also - they tested it on a pick up truck though. Reduction in oil temp was not recorded because the truck had inbuilt coolers for cooling oil. This did not allow for any reduction.
EXP4 reports that it will reduce oil temps between 30-40F. We will test this on the track very soon using Castrol Synthetic oil. Both in a NA and Comptech SC NSX.
Disclaimer: As of a few weeks ago, KHrant Enterprises is EXP4's exclusive West Coast representative and motorsports promoter ....... if you are a racer, talk to me ..... ;-)
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