• Protip: Profile posts are public! Use Conversations to message other members privately. Everyone can see the content of a profile post.

R&T compares new NSX with Porsche, ZO6

Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Nov 30, 2000
Messages
59
Location
Prescott, AZ, USA
Check out the March Road & Track. They compare the new NSX with a Porsche 911 Carrera and a ZO6. Some interesting positives and negatives noted for the NSX.
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Feb 7, 2001
Messages
1,617
Location
CORONA, CA USA
The article had some nice things to say about the NSX.
I read it at the stand today and it was just as I expected.

The NSX is hailed as the most refined and balanced... as always.
The Z06 mops the floor with all at the track... as always.

There's no excitement when I pick up a performance comparo with a Z06 or Viper involved anymore. One of the two basically lambasts whatever else is competing in lap times. In case of the Z06, they also mention how it's always the cheapest of the lot.
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Jan 27, 2002
Messages
40
i agree, they always mention the price of the z06 at the end.. well one thing they always forget to mention is the high class of nsx, well i guess those ruffians will just never know will they.
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
May 30, 2000
Messages
3,277
Location
Southampton, PA, USA
Well, they mention the price of the Z06 because it's impressive. A tremendous value for the money.

There's no reason to put down the Z06 or its owners in order to make our NSXs better.

I frankly hope that Honda learns a number of lessons from the Vette (and vice versa).

I would love to see the next NSX to once again be the technological and value leader that it once was. That a 10-13 year old design still performs as well as it does is very impressive indeed.

-Jim

------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
Looking for 76-79 Honda Accords
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Feb 7, 2001
Messages
1,617
Location
CORONA, CA USA
I love the Z06. It's an awesome car. I've owned three corvettes in the past, including a C5. I think it's deserving of all the praise it is getting.

I was just pointing out how all the latest comparos over the last few years end the same. You already know the result before opening the magazine. The Z06 or Viper will be king in all numbers and times. They'll say how although it may not have X,Y,Z... it dominates in performance. Then it will end how it's more performance for half the price.
It's all true! I'm just looking for some new angles and perspectives. Something that I haven't read 25 times before in previous issues.

I used to love reading them, but lately unless there is an NSX involved I have not even been interested. It's Deja Vu, reading the article, yet feeling like you've read it 10 times before.

I definitely hope the next NSX can compete and defeat the competition around the track. Although I love it for the refinement, looks, and fun (something I believe no other sports car has touched)... it would still be nice to see it kick some butt every now and then around the track.

[This message has been edited by ilya (edited 09 February 2002).]

[This message has been edited by ilya (edited 09 February 2002).]
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Jan 27, 2002
Messages
40
yea ok. i was just trying to create some nsx hype, go talk on the vette form! =P
one thing honda could learn is something called.. torque *cough* displacement *ack*
just my thoughts.
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Feb 4, 2000
Messages
27,000
Location
Chicago IL
Originally posted by Jimbo:
I would love to see the next NSX to once again be the technological and value leader that it once was.

Let's not forget the true historical perspective. The NSX has NEVER been a value leader, and even its claim to technological leadership is misleading.

Even when the NSX was introduced in 1990, the Corvette was the value leader in the high-performance sports car market, when evaluated strictly on the numbers. The NSX was introduced in 1990 as a 270-hp car with an MSRP of $60,600. (Granted, selling prices the first year started with a substantial premium over MSRP, but that premium disappeared within a year.) The 1990 Corvette offered almost as much hp (245) at roughly half the price. 1990 was also the year that the ZR1 ("King of the Hill") Corvette came out, with 380 hp at roughly the same price as the NSX. At that time, either Corvette trounced the NSX on anyone's simplistic measure of "bang for the buck". The horsepower and price of the NSX were similar to the normally-aspirated Porsche 911, then as now.

Where the NSX trounced the competition was in the area of not so much technology but refinement. The application of such relatively novel technologies as all-aluminum construction and variable valve timing would not, by themselves, have made people stand up and take notice. The reason that Motor Trend called the new NSX "the best sports car in the world - any time, any place, any price" is that the NSX stood out in so many areas that sports cars never had before: ergonomics, fit and finish, quality of construction, reliability, etc. And you could take it out on a race track and come away shaking your head, thinking, "Now, THAT'S a REAL sports car." All of those characteristics - the quality and the "feel" - comprised what we now commonly refer to as "refinement". And there was no other sports car in the world that could approach the NSX in that regard.

I have some doubts that the next-generation NSX can be the same kind of breakthrough in refinement as the current NSX is. The reason I say that is simply that the competition has gotten so much better. Cars like the 1990 Porsche 911 and the Ferrari 348 were shown to be "the emperor's new clothes" - cars whose reputation were built on prestige and price rather than quality and refinement, and whose designers were never challenged to "be all that they could be". Today's 911 and 360 Modena are worlds better than their predecessors. The BMW M3 has moved from a 190-hp wannabe to a 333-hp contender. Even today's Corvette, while still lagging its foreign competition in refinement, has improved substantially in that regard. And the better the competition is, the tougher it is to stand out.

The 1991 NSX clearly had a pure and simple design goal: to be the best sports car the world had ever seen, and it achieved that goal admirably. Honda was able to price it similar to the Porsche, a lot more than the Corvette, and a lot less than the Ferrari.

I do not know what the design goal is for the next-generation (2005, probably) NSX. 350 hp for $90K will not, by itself, make the world take notice (just as 270 hp for $60K did not do so twelve years ago). Perhaps Honda's designers are once again envisioning a new level of refinement that we cannot imagine today, and the 2005 NSX will take the world by storm. Or perhaps it will be "just another high-end sports car" like the others on the market. Only time will tell.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 09 February 2002).]
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
May 30, 2000
Messages
3,277
Location
Southampton, PA, USA
Ken,

The 1991 NSX, in my opinion, never competed against the 1991 Corvette. It was clearly several notches higher.

At that time the NSX did compete against cars that were much more expensive (i.e. Ferrari, Lambo, etc). Honda publically stated that these cars were the target, not the Vette. This was my basis for the value claim.

As far as technological leadership in 1991, I believe the NSX clearly offered a great deal of technology that was ahead of its time.

VTEC, aluminum structure, suspension geometry, new painting techniques are just a few examples.

And as you mentioned, the refinement of the NSX was an important part. The fact that all this technology was wrapped up in a package that excelled in the areas of fit, finish and ergonomics was key.

Although, if I remember correctly some reviewers actually complained that the NSX was "too refined" and lacked quirks and ergonomic flaws, that in a Ferrari was viewed as "character." I think in some ways the level of refinement might have hurt the NSX.

Today, the technological advances of the NSX are commonplace. You can get VTEC engines in Honda Civics. As you also point out the original competition has gotten better and cars like the Corvette, which were never really competitors now routinely get compared to the NSX in road tests.

-Jim

------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
Looking for 76-79 Honda Accords
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Apr 30, 2001
Messages
499
having driven both the 996 C2 and the NSX on wet and dry tracks - I totally agree with the conclusions about the NSX's tricky handling at the limit in the wet...
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Jan 27, 2002
Messages
40
when i said "i agree, they always mention the price of the z06 at the end.. well one thing they always forget to mention is the high class of nsx, well i guess those ruffians will just never know will they." a few posts above, i meant those ruffians as the critics of the cars, the test drivers the magazine people, not vette owners =) sorry if i offended anyone
i dont think it matters anymore anyway
have a great day guys
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
May 30, 2000
Messages
3,277
Location
Southampton, PA, USA
"...having driven both the 996 C2 and the NSX on wet and dry tracks - I totally agree with the conclusions about the NSX's tricky handling at the limit in the wet..."

I wondered as I finished reading the article, how different the outcome might have been on a dry track?

-Jim

------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
Looking for 76-79 Honda Accords
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Feb 4, 2000
Messages
27,000
Location
Chicago IL
The 1991 NSX, in my opinion, never competed against the 1991 Corvette. It was clearly several notches higher.

Again, you seem to forget the actual historical record. Then, as now, the Corvette was considered "the American supercar", just like today. Most magazine tests at that time did indeed include the Corvette in their comparisons of the NSX. While Honda may not have regarded the Corvette as their primary competition in determining their marketing and pricing strategy, it was considered as part of the same supercar category by the media as well as the general public - unlike other sports car models then on the market (Supra, RX-7, 3000GT, MR-2, as well as American muscle cars), which were NOT considered competition and rarely showed up in comparison tests against the NSX, Corvette, 911, or Ferrari. While the NSX may have been perceived as better than the less-expensive Corvette, it was also perceived as better than the 911 and the 348, even though they were all viewed as competitors at the high end of the supercar market.

For an example of the cars considered by the media to be direct competition for the NSX at the time of its introduction, check out the August 1990 article in Road & Track, which appears here in the FAQ. The two cars that they used for comparison were the normally-aspirated Porsche 911 and the Corvette ZR1.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 09 February 2002).]
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
May 30, 2000
Messages
3,277
Location
Southampton, PA, USA
"...Again, you seem to forget the actual historical record..."

Ken,

I've not forgotten anything. I merely offered my opinion. Sheesh!

-Jim

PS: The media also compared the Corvette, because of its special status, against Ferraris and just about any sports car.



------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
Looking for 76-79 Honda Accords
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Feb 4, 2000
Messages
27,000
Location
Chicago IL
I merely offered my opinion.

Oh, okay! It sounded instead more like you were misstating the historical record when you said, "cars like the Corvette, which were never really competitors now routinely get compared to the NSX in road tests" (when in fact the Corvette was, even in 1990, routinely compared to the NSX in road tests such as the one in the Road & Track cited above). Sorry for the misunderstanding.
cool.gif
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
May 30, 2000
Messages
3,277
Location
Southampton, PA, USA
In my opinion, cars that *compete* against each other in the marketplace have similar design goals, layouts (i.e. two seat, sports cars) and are similarly priced.

With the exception of the ZR-1, the Corvette was never priced near the NSX (or vice versa).

While car magazines routinely would compare the Corvette against anything with four wheels and two seats, to me and in my opinion only, this didn't mean that those comparisons were against true marketplace competitiors to the Corvette.

I think one could say today that a used NSX might *compete* against a new Corvette. And I think we've seen a number of people here who were considering one or the another, or had traded their C5 in on a NSX. But I think that's relatively recent trend fueled by the availability of nice used NSXs on the market selling for $34K-$45K. I know that when I decided to purchase a used NSX, I briefly toyed with the possibility of a new C5.

For the most part (and again, in my opinion only) I think that those who have bought new NSXs throughout the years never really considered the Corvette as a viable alternative. I think that for the most part, in general, anyone who seriously looked at the NSX but bought the Vette did so because they couldn't afford the NSX.

-Jim

------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
Looking for 76-79 Honda Accords
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Feb 7, 2001
Messages
1,617
Location
CORONA, CA USA
The ZR1 more than any vette made the big headlines back in 1990. Yes, it was overpriced at 60K+, but it set quite a few records during it's time.
I don't think anyone who considered a corvette at the time had an NSX in mind.
The NSX is still the most refined today, even compared to a C5. In 1991, when the NSX was released, it made the interior of a C4 look like a plastic toy. It wasn't until the C5 was released, that Chevy took a huge step toward the refinement of the NSX.

However, from a performance perspective, the ZR1 was regularly compared with exotics at the time. In fact, many publications refered to the ZR1 as exotic as well. In 1990, the standard vette only out out 245HP. The ZR1 immediately trumped it by 130HP at 375.
In fact, if you speak to some enthusiasts, the 1990 was the fastest year, faster than the later models with 405HP. It was approx 100lbs lighter than all other years.
It ran 0-60 in the high 4s (4.7-4.9), but believe it or not, this vette was more of a track car than a drag racer. It set a number of world records at the time, including the world endurance record. The ZR1 ran 24hours straight at 175+mph. The 91 models all came with a special sticker commemorating it as the new Endurance Champ.
If you consider what makes a car exotic, the King of the Hill ZR1 actually qualified. It was produced in very limited numbers. The motor was built by Mercury Marine, not Chevy, and had no resemblance to an L98 or LT1 at the time. The LT5 was an aluminum engine with dual overhead cams, 32 valves and 16 fuel injectors. The function of the engine was similar to the NSX in that it also
changed characteristics over a certain RPM, redline at 7000 (or 7500). While the standard vettes were known for their low end power, the ZR1 was known for it's high end speed. In 1990, it ran the quarter mile in the high to mid 12's, blowing away even a C5, although their 0-60 is similar. It wasn't until the Z06 was released, that another vette finally bested the ZR1 in overall acceleration (and not by much). I have personally driven a ZR1 and many standard C4s, and the two feel as different as two separate cars.
The transmission was also non-Chevy, coming from a German company (I forget the name).
AT the time, the ZR1 was THE track car to kick butt in, as the Viper is today.

Due to it's low production numbers, exotic motor (by the standards at the time), and other factors as well, most publications considered the ZR1 an exotic. It was routinely tested against Porsche, Ferrari, and the NSX. Although comapring it to an NSX in terms of build quality in refinement is a joke, it sure posted some serious supercar numbers at the time. It took a Viper GTS to dethrone it as King of the Hill, and then almost 10 years later the Z06 to do the same.
Late model ZR1s still sell for more than a brand new C5.

Sorry for the long post... just a short history of a car that not too many know much about. It had a far greater influence than many realize. www.zr1.net is a good resource.
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Oct 23, 2000
Messages
13,885
Location
Saint Augustine, FL
I just read the article and I enjoyed it. I thought it was really interesting how Steve Millen (the only professional driver) only lapped the track one second slower in the NSX vs Z06. Too bad the track was wet. I would have liked to have seen the numbers on a dry track.

It is also interesting how the 2002 NSX out-accelerated the 2002 911. 320 HP vs 290.. and the NSX still comes out on top
smile.gif


------------------
NetViper -= 100% Stock EBP 2000 Civic Si =- Still looking to get an NSX, but at least I can live life at 8,000 RPM!
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Feb 6, 2002
Messages
680
Location
Atlanta, GA
There is one big thing that has always attracted me to the NSX : rarity. Vettes, Porsches, Vipers, etc all perform very well and pretty close to each other in many stats. The cars all look great (some more than others, depending on your taste - I've never cared for the 911's styling, but I love the vette and viper). But the thing that REALLY "grabs" me about the NSX is the fact that it has all those great qualities AND you never see them on the road. Here in Atlanta, I see TONS of Vettes (my FEMALE next door neighbor has a new yellow one!), lots of Porsches (the Boxter is very popular and at a quick glance closely resembles a 911). When I take out my NSX for a drive, everyone looks. Most people never see a car like that on the road - it's a special thing when an NSX goes by.
THAT'S what I love most about owning an NSX - it is SPECIAL. Vettes are common cars. Porsches are common as well, since the Boxter has become so popular. Vipers are definitely rare, but it's still a Dodge.
Vettes are not rare at all and they're a Chevy. Z06 looks just like a regular vette to the average onlooker. Porsches are as common as vettes and (I would guess) expensive to repair. M3's are fairly rare, but they look just like a 3 series.

Anyway, in summary, I think all these cars perform exceptionally. The driver's skill level makes a huge difference on the track. These magazine writers are just trying to make a buck on selling some magazines. It's just one bozo's opinion. I would not trade my NSX for ANY car (Except maybe a 2002 NSX!!!)


------------------
Don Nowak
[email protected]
NSXTC in Georgia
1992 Red Twin-Turbo
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Nov 2, 2000
Messages
955
Location
Silicon Valley
Originally posted by DONYMO:
Tit's a special thing when an NSX goes by.
THAT'S what I love most about owning an NSX - it is SPECIAL.



My sentiments exactly. The NSX is special, and at the same time it makes the driver feel special. Nothing beats the feeling of piloting an NSX. It moves you more than just physically; it moves you emotionally like nothing else.
 
Top