State of the art brakes...Or snakeoil ?

[G_Man_Max]

Guys

Have any of you brake experts seen or heard of the following.

http://www.delphi.com/pdf/e/br_max_torque.pdf

The concept seems to me to make a lot of sense over the current types of system.

IIRC there was adiscussion on here about a similar system using a single titanium alloy rotor as well and although a lot of us were sceptical it seems the idea may be catching on.

What do you guys think really is state of the art.

I was about to pull the trigger on a billet tarox10 system with ceramic cheeses in the discs work from cold,etc

http://www.tarox.com/fastroad-metalceramic-info.htm

untill i heard about all the problems with porsche PCCB my friends gt3 has had to go back twice ( ouch )


I think the typical BBK kits like Brembe etc are just trading on image and name.

A lot of serious racers seem to use forged Billet etc like alcon,willwood and AP when the class rules dont prohibit modifications.

The x-drilled discs on a number of kits seem to suffer from cracking more than the slotted rotors ( although do look better sometimes )

I think that the cast iron calipers seem clunky old tech compared to the latest alloys, with stress and flow forged alloys billet machined to the last gram especially as we know saving weight on the suspension carried components always makes sense.

I understand all the theory that even a ropy brake system can stop you just as fast as its the tyres friction coef that decelerate you etc, hawever I have found different in practice as a full lock is not always the fastest and obviously the least controllable stop.

However the time it takes for a cheap system to stop controlled deceleration and lock and the feeling and modulation you get with high performance brakes is where the difference lies.
Measure with a pyrometer all around the tyre rim on cheap brake systems vs better systems and you will see larger disparity between min max temps on the basic system.

I also understand the benefits of the braided SS lines, proper propertioning and appropriate pads brake fluid boiling points etc.
But the brakes on the X are one area that lets it down, the feeling can be improved by the standard fix's pads,ss hoses, dot5 etc
But In my opinion I prefer the feeling of brakes on a gt3 or open racer and have driven a stock car with Wilwood STR brakes that was phenomonel.

With the new FI power gauntlets being trown down by FX, GJ and others how can we improve this other important aspect of our fantastic cars and to what extent ?

Max,G

 

[Arata]

I believe the Porsche system is ceramic over carbon, which would save a lot of weight.
The tarox system appears to be ceramic over iron or steel, no weight savings.

The twin disc systems have been uesd on some motorcycles without any great sucess or advantage.

You may be right about Brembo selling on name alone, but in the factory racing applications brembo is always there.
In the most expensive automotive OEM Brembo is always there.
In developing new tech Brembo is there.

There may be a lot of racers using other brakes and they may be very good also, they are usally less expensive, want to take a chance and try them?
Or go with what is clearly the high mark in brakes, Brembo?

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

I don't agree with your comment about brembo. True they are very popular and branching more into street cars. But their primary business is still racing, and they do make forged billet for the races. Like the one Comptech sells as their powertec kit.

It just, most people are not willing to spend that much money for brakes.

I'm sorry, but I never consider willwood a premier brake company. I don't think they even offer forged billet caliper. I think willwood target more to grassroot racers with limited budget. In no way their product can be compared with Alcon, AP, or brembo.

The newer serious contender in the business is Performance Friction. I heard a few teams has started using their new calipers for sports car application.

 

[mdb]

The twin disc systems have been uesd on some motorcycles without any great sucess or advantage.

I'd have to disagree. Twin disc on a bike gets you more stopping power, and more importantly, less brake fade. You won't notice much between a single and dual disc on either count until things start getting hot. You'll be hard pressed to find a sportbike with a single front rotor these days, more so at the track.

 

[CokerRat]

I also understand the benefits of the braided SS lines, proper propertioning and appropriate pads brake fluid boiling points etc.
But the brakes on the X are one area that lets it down, the feeling can be improved by the standard fix's pads,ss hoses, dot5 etc

Minor nit to pick, just for those who are reading this thread and making mental notes. NSX brakes are not compatible with DOT 5 fluid because it is silicon-based. DOT 3 and 4 are recommended.

Interesting discussion. Carry on!

 

[Larry Bastanza]

The NSX brake system does not have a compatibilty issue with DOT 5 as I understand it. It is clear that you cannot mix DOT 5 w DOT3/4, including flushing the system out and swapping.

You would need to completely rebuild the system (calipers/master cylinder) to insure no DOT3/4 was left in there, before going to DOT5.

I was not aware that there was a "compatibility" issue with any brake system and a type of fluid, for that matter.

Please correct me if I have been mislead.

With that said, FRESH DOT4 is more then adequate for any application that is practical, including track use.

EDIT NOTE per below

My $.02
LarryB

 

[DONYMO]

1. More torque is great, but do you have the tires to utilize that torque?

2. Maintainence Cost. Looks like a 3 pad system. There would be very few vendors (probably 1 - the manufacturer of the brake system) to supply replacement pads and rotors.

3. Fixing it if it breaks. This could be a problem since nobody (most likely) has ever seen this type of system, let alone worked on it.

Just go with Brembo or AP.

 

[Arata]

I'd have to disagree. Twin disc on a bike gets you more stopping power, and more importantly, less brake fade. You won't notice much between a single and dual disc on either count until things start getting hot. You'll be hard pressed to find a sportbike with a single front rotor these days, more so at the track.

Two separate discs and 2 separate calipers are used on motorcycles, you may want to have a look at the link that was posted to see the type of twin disc, I was referring to. That style has also been used on motorcycles without much acceptance.

 

[G_Man_Max]

Guys,

Thanks for all your comments.
This thread is not aimed to be particularly contentious.
My intention is to actually what people consider state of the art on the NSX.

I didn't think the dual single rotors design was that common which is why I was interested in others opinions.
There is a school of thought that said it cant be that good as they would be commonplace if it was the "right" way forward, however we have to remember our NSX was not based on commonplace technologies when it was origionally designed.
IMO surely its worth investigating and discussing thease less conventional ideas in order to judge wether they stand or fall on their merits and not the size of the marketing budget.


Arata,

I appreciate your views and see that you are also a bike aficionado to boot, from your comments I presume you run brembo or is that assumption incorrect ?

I have considered the brembo system as well., but would you consider the BBK brembo kit for the NSX either as good as it gets or state of the art ?

Andrie,

Sorry wasnt really trying to bash brembo just felt that the more common NSX brembo kits were more about "image" than performance especially if you consider cost/performace ratio as well.
Will check out the comptech powertec kit that looks much better, do you have experience of it personally ?
However it is V expensive and requires special wheels according to http://livermoreperformance.com/acura honda brake kits.html

NSX, 4 wheel w/park brake, req. special wheels 91 - 02 Powertec Brake Kit 13" 420-110 $9,525.99 + shipping + fitting

I am surprised you feel so negatively about Wilwood have you seen or experienced there high end products ? Have a look at the STR caliper http://www.wilwood.com/001_TJM/calipers folder/calipers/calipers/str/index.asp
however if you are sure you are right then so lets replace them in the list with Performance friction. Do you have a link for them ?

Coker rat,
Thanks for warning people but IMHO Dot 5 can run fine in the NSX but it would need fully flushing as its the interaction of dot5(silicon) with dot4 which usually causes the problems.
There is an increasing interest in dot 5.1 among a number of racers I know which does not have this problem and either Motul 5.1 or neo super dot seem wother investigating.

Larry B
You sir are a scoler and a gentleman right as usual !
Only thing I'rd add is that badly cared for dot 4 that hasn't been regularly changed can have absorbed water and on an inperfect NSX braking system the brakes can boil too easily ( especially if the stone guards have not been removed/modified or deflectors added.) This is why some after market system vendors can recomend dot 5.
Right now I actually use motul racing 600 which seems as good as SRF to me but much more realistically priced.

Donny Mo
1)I use goodyear Eagle F1 GS-d3 is that available in the US now?
As mentioned I agree that the tyres are key, any number of people will pop up to repeat the mantra and say ( albeit correctly) "its the tyres that stop you not the brakes "
but its the feel and modulation control that I am interested in improving rather than the typically slightly soft feel of the nsx that a number of poeple dont seem to want to admit.
2) agree 1000%
3) unsure thats why I started the thread

What do you use ? Do you need to adjust the proprotioning or replace the MS for AP ?

Guys who reckons they have a really fantastic setup ?
What works behind the 16 17inch OEM wheels, anything good?
Which aftermarket kits don't need any reproportioning adjustment and keep the exact ratio ( or a better ratio ) than the origional ?

Thanks for all the feedback.

Max

 

[DONYMO]

I have the AP Racing BBK.
Retains stock rear caliper, but has 13" rotors on all 4 corners.
No proportioning valve required.
Science of Speed sells it.
I like it alot.
New rotors can be costly, but that's part of owning a BBK.

 

[titaniumdave]

Front Brembos

I have front only Brembos and I have to say I am very happy with them. I do not have a bias valve and the performance of the system is fine. I might be able to get a little more braking out of the rear end of the car with bigger rotors and a balance bar set up, but right now I never get lock up on the rear and the car has incredibly progressive braking. The tires overheat before the brakes ever fade on the track so I could not ask for more. I have slotted rotors on the front and drilled stock diameter on the rears, running Panther Plus pads.

I know this is not the suggested set up, but for bang for the buck, I think it is hard to beat

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

Andrie,

Sorry wasnt really trying to bash brembo just felt that the more common NSX brembo kits were more about "image" than performance especially if you consider cost/performace ratio as well.
Will check out the comptech powertec kit that looks much better, do you have experience of it personally ?
However it is V expensive and requires special wheels according to http://livermoreperformance.com/acura honda brake kits.html

NSX, 4 wheel w/park brake, req. special wheels 91 - 02 Powertec Brake Kit 13" 420-110 $9,525.99 + shipping + fitting

I am surprised you feel so negatively about Wilwood have you seen or experienced there high end products ? Have a look at the STR caliper http://www.wilwood.com/001_TJM/calipers folder/calipers/calipers/str/index.asp
however if you are sure you are right then so lets replace them in the list with Performance friction. Do you have a link for them ?

Sorry for the late response. Kinda hard to keep track to all the posts.

I agree to certain extent about brembo street setup. They definitely not as good as their race calipers. However, from my experience, and friends that own performance shops, their quality is better than other big brake kit out there.

The comptech powertec brake kit is a true race caliper. I don't think anybody can go to brembo dealer and buy the caliper unless you are a professional race team. This caliper uses different material and are extremely stiff. This will be very evident once you drive the car at the track. I know the price seem steep. But the caliper itself retail around $1200 each! Similarly priced and quality with Alcon and AP race calipers. And yes, I have lots of experience with this setup as well as with other brake option. I have used other brake setup and brand, and always come back to brembo or AP. Sadly, I don't have the luxury to try Alcon yet.

I am sorry if I came on strong on wilwood product. I never had good experience with them and will not use them again in the future. That being said, I know a few people that have great success using them and I also know a few people that wouldn't touch them with a 10' pole. There is a reason that top team like in LeMans uses brembo, Alcon and AP.

If you are serious about brakes, go with real race products. This can be expensive and not for everybody. For most people brembo street, or even wilwood is all they ever need.

I'm sorry, I don't have a link to Performance Friction. I just heard from a friend that involved in pro racing that they are start to move into caliper business, and so far it seem to be very promising.

 

[Ponyboy]

I'm sorry, I don't have a link to Performance Friction. I just heard from a friend that involved in pro racing that they are start to move into caliper business, and so far it seem to be very promising.

Performance Friction regularly has ads in Racecar Engineering promoting their calipers. IIRC, one of their models has a duct integrated into the caliper. IIRC, NASCAR is currently using this caliper and have had good results.

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

Wow, that's good news. I haven't pick up Racecar engineering for a while. Any article about it in the magazine?

 

[Ponyboy]

Sorry, I remembered wrong. It was Alcon that had the ducted caliper.

Caliper Press Release

Caliper Photo

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

That is a very interesting design. Wonder how much that caliper is......

 

[Ponyboy]

I thought so as well. IIRC, NASCAR tested these calipers at the Sears Point race.

FWIW, when I went to the Ruf factory I watched as one of the techs was working on a 720hp 911 with the ceramic rotors, to the tune of $5,000 each rotor (direct quote). Ruf didn't seem to like them so much and now I hear Porsche is having trouble with the production version of the ceramic rotors. Some people are getting a few thousand miles out of the rotors. Now that's expensive.

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

A friend of mine had problem and swapped the rotor with the cast iron rotors!

 

[nsxtasy]

The NSX brake system does not have a compatibilty issue with DOT 5 as I understand it. It is clear that you cannot mix DOT 5 w DOT3/4, including flushing the system out and swapping.
.
.
.
With that said, FRESH DOT4 is more then adequate for any application that is practical, including track use.

Okay, let's go back a step and talk about brake fluid.

There are four widely-available kinds of brake fluids on the market: DOT 3, DOT 4, DOT 5, and DOT 5.1. DOT 5 is silicone-based brake fluid (SBBF). DOT 3, DOT 4, and DOT 5.1 are all non-SBBF. You can't mix DOT 5 with any of the others for this reason. The other three are all inter-compatible.

Each DOT type refers to a standard set by the Department of Transportation of the federal government. The advantage of a fluid with a higher DOT number is that the standard calls for higher minimum boiling points than that of a lower DOT number. The higher the boiling point, the more resistance to boiling and resulting fade. However, you can have fluid with a lower number that meets a higher standard; for example, Motul RBF 600 is labeled as a DOT 4 fluid, but exceeds the boiling point minimums for DOT 5 and DOT 5.1 fluid.

Nowadays, DOT 4 and DOT 5.1 brake fluids are widely available with boiling points that exceed the DOT 5 minimums. There are also fluids (notably the expensive Castrol SRF) that are more resistant to fluid degradation from the absorption of moisture over time, although most racers are likely to change fluid often enough that that is not an issue. As a result, most folks these days don't use DOT 5 (SBBF) and instead use DOT 4 or DOT 5.1 fluids that exceed DOT 5 minimum boiling points.

Here is a list of many popular brake fluids, arranged by dry boiling point and by wet boiling point, including typical prices, as well as the DOT minimums; I believe all are non-SBBF fluids:

ARRANGED BY DRY BOILING POINT:

DRY:401F -- WET:284F --- DOT3 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:446F -- WET:311F --- DOT4 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5 MINIMUM (SILICONE BASE)
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5.1 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:527F -- WET:302F --- AP RACING 551 ($12.95/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:527F -- WET:347F --- VALVOLINE SYNPOWER DOT3 & DOT4
DRY:536F -- WET:392F --- ATE SUPERBLUE/TYP200 ($9.95/1L)
DRY:550F -- WET:284F --- FORD HEAVY DUTY DOT 3 ($4/12 OZ)
DRY:570F -- WET:284F --- WILWOOD 570 ($5.65/12 OZ)
DRY:570F -- WET:284F --- PERFORMANCE Friction Z rated ($6.27/16 OZ)
DRY:590F -- WET:410F --- AP RACING 600 ($16.95/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:590F -- WET:518F --- CASTROL SRF ($69.00/1L 0R 33.8 OZ)
DRY:593F -- WET:420F --- MOTUL RBF600 ($12.95/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:601F -- WET:399F --- BREMBO LCF 600 PLUS ($26.75/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- NEO SYNTHETICS SUPER DOT 610 ($11.95/12 OZ)
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- PROSPEED GS610 ($39.95/16 OZ)
DRY:626F -- WET:417F --- WILWOOD EXP 600 ($16.95/0.5L 16.9 OZ)

ARRANGED BY WET BOILING POINT:

DRY:401F -- WET:284F --- DOT3 MINIMUM
DRY:570F -- WET:284F --- WILWOOD 570
DRY:570F -- WET:284F --- PERFORMANCE Friction Z rated
DRY:550F -- WET:284F --- FORD HEAVY DUTY DOT 3
DRY:527F -- WET:302F --- AP RACING 551
DRY:446F -- WET:311F --- DOT4 MINIMUM
DRY:527F -- WET:347F --- VALVOLINE SYNPOWER DOT3 & DOT4
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5.1 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5 MINIMUM (SILICONE BASE)
DRY:536F -- WET:392F --- ATE SUPERBLUE/TYP200
DRY:601F -- WET:399F --- BREMBO LCF 600 PLUS
DRY:590F -- WET:410F --- AP RACING 600
DRY:626F -- WET:417F --- WILWOOD EXP 600
DRY:593F -- WET:420F --- MOTUL RBF600
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- NEO SYNTHETICS SUPER DOT 610
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- PROSPEED GS610
DRY:590F -- WET:518F --- CASTROL SRF

 

[KGP]

What do you guys think really is state of the art.

Although I went with the Wilwood 4 corner kit, one BBK that is still interesting to me is the ZMI kit. You might recall a few past threads on them, one of which is located here. ZMI finally did send out some kind of sample to sjs for fitment purposes. Perhaps he can comment on what they sent. Or better yet, maybe AJKS can give us an update, which hopefully would include some track time.

 

[AJKS]

Sorry for not getting to this thread sooner....
I have had the ZMI set up now for 7 months on the front and about 2 months on the rear. I run a 225 35 18 Potenza SO3 on Front and 285 30 18 Potenza SO3 on the rear.
First off let me say this, I lost about 100 pounds off the total weight of the NSX with the Front and Rear ZMI set up. I have 14 inch front and 13 inch rear. Second my crazy A$$ schedule has not allowed me to get to the track to abuse the brakes, but I have done the best street abuse possible. Late one night on some empty roads, I did back to back 0-150-0 runs. Two in a row to be exact and did not get any brake fade at all. went out after the 2 runs and still did my best to abuse the brakes very hard for another 30-40 minutes. Stopping hard at every opportunity. After about 45 minutes of the most street abuse possible I had no negative comments. I tried to make the brakes cry and they did not. I know this does not substitute for a true track event but it is the best I have to offer for now. A note to mention is that the brakes cool at an amazing rate. With all kidding aside no matter how hard you abuse the brakes after 5 minutes a person can touch the rotor, and not for just a second or two. The caliper can also be handled shortly after, about 10 minutes or so. This is unheard of with any other brake I have ever seen.
So on to the other advantage. I mentioned the weight savings. Well, this brake set up is the second most seat of the pants performance upgrade I have done next to the gear swap. I am surprised ZMI does not have a marketing slogan like "Go Faster Stop Better". I have seen a .2-.3 second improvement in 0-60 and 1/4 mile. The ZMI front hat and rotor weight in at 5 pounds and the rear at 4.5 pounds. The Calipers in front weight 5 pounds and rear calipers weigh in at 2.5 pounds with the e-brake set up built into the rear caliper.
All in all I would have almost bought them for the performance/weight savings alone. I really did not think a performance upgrade would be possible with a brake swap, but when I test drove the NSX after the rear brake install it did something I have never seen an NSX do. It actually broke the rear end loose on the 2-3rd shift. I have done this before with stock size tires and a speed shift and also on Nitrous, but not NA with the 285's on the rear. I guess that is the end result with 37 pounds of rotating mass weight reduction of the rear hub assembly.
By the way my 2002 NSX T now weighs in at 2830 with a quarter tank of gas.

So snake-oil, not in this case. One example that Mike at ZMI told me about is that a customer has had a set on a race car for something like 10 seasons with the same rotors. The Cost, well they aint cheap. They do however come with a warranty that is unmatched in the brake industry. Call ZMI and get the scoop.

AJKS

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

I'm still skeptical about ZMI non vented rotors. If it is all what it claimed to be, why there is no one in top level racing industry uses them. The cost for ZMI brakes is nothing compares to the cost of brembo or Alcon race brakes. Their race brakes can reach to $15K or even more for their carbon brakes.

There are also a japanese company that sells non vented carbon disc, but for drag racing. For road racing they still uses vented carbon disc. Which confirms that even in carbon form, they still need adequate cooling for road racing course.

Big issue I might think of is in road racing we use the brakes (hard) at approximately every 5 seconds. I doubt non vented rotors will have time to cool down.

 

[AJKS]

I'm still skeptical about ZMI non vented rotors. If it is all what it claimed to be, why there is no one in top level racing industry uses them. The cost for ZMI brakes is nothing compares to the cost of brembo or Alcon race brakes. Their race brakes can reach to $15K or even more for their carbon brakes.

There are also a japanese company that sells non vented carbon disc, but for drag racing. For road racing they still uses vented carbon disc. Which confirms that even in carbon form, they still need adequate cooling for road racing course.

Big issue I might think of is in road racing we use the brakes (hard) at approximately every 5 seconds. I doubt non vented rotors will have time to cool down.

You have seen the ZMI's right? I would say that cooling is not an issue. I am not a sales person for ZMI nor am I the right person to argue the way ZMI's work. Maybe you can call Mike at ZMI and ask some of the questions you have and post the reply here.
On the track you said a person is on the brakes every 5 seconds then off then on again. If you are off the brakes for any amount of time they do cool. The ZMI's do cool in a more efficient manner than a cast IRON unit, Period. Maybe in the coming months and years the Zmi's will prove them selves and we will see more of them on the market and on some real race cars. I am about to start a true NSX race car project. I have already budgeted the ZMI's into the equation. I do believe in the product and I think others will soon agree.
AJKS

 

[Arata]

From another forum, this reply came from the inventor at ZMI:

"My name is Fred Callahan and I am the inventor of the rotors you see posted. The rotors are Intermetallic coated titanium (international patent), and have been in use for over 10 years. Starting from the top, the swept area is actually more than a current Corvette rotor. Coefficient of friction does not depend on surface area, but rather the friction value, multiplied by the force applied (by the caliper pistons to the pad). Surface area has a lot to do with pad wear, or think of a rotor that has a ¼" swept area. It will still stop the car the same amount, but the pads won't last as long. The heat generated is from the material thermal conductivity and mass of the rotor. Nice for show, but useless for the track? Rocky Moran Jr. won the last Formula Atlantic race he ran using four rotors half as thick as these at Laguna Seca. You can either ask him or Price Cobb who owned the car at the time. Review this race and you will see he won by a fairly large margin and was able to easily pull away from the field. In fact, it was so easy that after the race they tore his engine down thinking he was cheating. These rotors have been in many races from SCCA, Late Model Dirt cars, World of Outlaws, many different styles of cars, both ovals and road courses. Brake rotors do not need to store energy, cast iron brake rotors need to be massive because they store energy, and if you cool a cast iron rotor too quickly, it cracks. Ask yourself why would you want a brake rotor to remain hot - wouldn't it make more sense to cool it quickly before applying the brakes again, and inducing more energy? The Specific Heat for titanium is .14 BTU/Lbs/°F, while cast iron is .10 and carbon fiber is .16, so you can see titanium is closer to carbon than it is to iron. If aluminum could withstand the temperature, it would be the best rotor with a .23 specific heat, which is why all of the money was dumped into aluminum metal matrix rotors, but at the end of the day, aluminum is aluminum. The open slot design (US patent pending) performs two functions. First, the slots on the rotor pictured have just about the same surface area as a cast iron rotor, and surface area is the important factor for cooling, which is why heat sinks are usually aluminum, and have a lot of machined surfaces and protrusions, to increase the surface area to allow for radiant cooling. Secondly, the angle of the slots are important for initial bite. Depending on the situation, you may want a higher or lower initial bite, most street cars would require less. The most important factor I haven't seen mentioned yet (probably because it is a pro and not a con) is the lower inertia these rotors offer over cast iron. It may be only 50 lbs. static weight, but this translates to hundreds of pounds rotating weight - which allows the car to accelerate quicker (not having to spin up the heavy cast iron rotors), decelerate quicker (not having to stop spinning the heavy cast iron rotors), quicker response time for the suspension (less weight means the spring isn't compressed as far over a bump and keeps the wheel planted to the road), and less spring rate required, for the same reason, allowing greater flexibility in vehicle set-up. An example of inertia, two kegs of beer are rolling down a hill at you, one is empty and the other is full, which one do you want to get in front of?
Now, LG is mad at me because of a comment I made to him at the SEMA show, and Lou, if you want to go over that in public forum, I'd be happy to accomodate you. Andy was given a free set for his car to try. I have e-mails stating the first few tracks went fine, but eventually, 35-40 minutes into a race, the pads would get too hot and begin to fade - I also have the e-mail where the rear blades were continued to being used, and the cast iron vented rotors were back on the front only. I offered a set of vented titanium rotors, but not for free this time, and received no response.

The blade rotors are certainly not for every application, which is why we offer vented rotors to some, and blades to others. The Mosler car was interested in competing in performance, with acceleration/deceleration as a primary goal, not running the 24 hours of LeMans - if that was the case, we would have put vented rotors all the way around. If you think the rotors are too expensive, find me an inexpensive source for titanium. Nobody is getting rich off of these things, I still have a day job, this isn't what I do for a living. I hope I've answered some of your questions."

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

From the post, it looks like the non vented rotors are not up to the task for racing condition. That's why Andy (the person he reffered to) went back to vented cast iron rotors in the front.

I believe LG is Lou Gigliotti 5 times World Challenge champion (or maybe 6?).