Swirl Marks

[KGP]

Okay, I have read the FAQ's and all the past threads on swirl mark removal (black car). I just can't bring myself to letting a detail shop do it, so I am going to give it a shot myself. Questions are:

1. What speed should I run the Porter Cable orbital at if using the 3M swirl mark remover?
2. Should the orbital be hand flat or at an angle?
3. Remove wax first, or can it be left on?

Any other thoughts or tips?

 

[Jimbo]

You need to remove the old wax. The oils (plant oils and possibly silicones) that make the wax soft and usable contribute to the swirl marks.

So, remove the old wax. You can use a wax remover product, or wash the car with Dawn dishwashing liquid (just once to remove the wax).

If you have scratches or swirls remove them with scratch/swirl remover of your choice. If you're going to stay with conventional wax, Zymol HD-Cleanse is a nice product with a fine abrasive that removes old wax and fine swirls and scratches. Deeper scratches might require a more aggressive product like the 3M scratch remover.

Then, either reapply your conventional wax of choice, or consider a synthetic polish (i.e. Zaino). It did a great job on my black NSX (no oils or build up problem).

I personally avoid using orbital/motorized buffers. Although I do know many like them. I prefer the manual touch.

-Jim

 

[KGP]

I think the 3M Swirl Mark Remover or the similar product from Meguiars will be a much better choice for you.

Meguiars #9, right?
What about 3M's Perfect It III? My understanding is that the abrasives are a bit finer than that of the 3M swirl mark remover.

Thanks for the feed-back. I welcome all.

 

[nsxtasy]

Meguiars #9, right?

Yes. I have used it (this is my "standard" product for swirl marks and light scratches). It's great stuff - yes, slightly abrasive so you don't want to use it periodically or as a preventive, but perfect for problems - leaves the finish smooth, so you can wax right over it.

What about 3M's Perfect It III? My understanding is that the abrasives are a bit finer than that of the 3M swirl mark remover.

I am not familiar with this particular product. It sounds like it's finer but it's intended to be used after something more aggressive - specifically, their rubbing/polishing compounds, which are more aggressive than swirl mark remover products.

I really can't comment on the results of these specific 3M products because I haven't used them myself and can only read what they say on their website. The only 3M product I have used is their Perfect-It hand glaze (which is similar to HD-Cleanse).

 

[LJSB]

I use 3M products at my shop and know the product line well.
Their professional products are very specific in their use ie. type of bonnet, sequence etc..
A buffer is something that takes some time to master and is one of the quickest ways for the novice to damage the finish. It takes practice to use and a NSX, IMO is not where you start.
I suggest you not use one and pick a product line for non machine use, like Zymol or Meguiars and stay within the product line. It takes more time by hand but it is harder to damage your finish.

 

[mlambert890]

One thing to keep in mind is that until you actually know what you are doing, you are more likely to cause damage than remove it. Lots of people are terrified of using a detailer but then go ahead and do a way worse job than any pro detailer would. On the other hand, lots of folks manage to reach a level where they are as good as any pro would be and also dump the kind of money into it that a pro really never could and, as a result, get better than professional results.

Some tips to minimize the likelihood of making things worse:

1) make sure the car is spotless before starting the swirl removal process. I can't stress enough how critical the cleaning process is. Any dirt left over on the surface of the car is going to create swirls as you attempt to buff out the old ones.

2) use very high quality micro fiber or 100% made in the USA cotton towels.

3) start with a small area and do not use too much pressure. Use a small amount of product (less is more) and do not let the product start to dry. Check the small area to make sure your technique is working before moving on.

4) have a ton of towels and turn the towel frequently.

5) follow this link, register and read:

http://www.autopia.org

 

[mikec]

pbassjo gave you excellent advice. Please take it into consideration.

 

[KGP]

Good advice from all. Much appreciated. pbassjo(or anyone else for that matter), question:
If I were to decide to take it to a detailer, what would be the questions to ask, and what should I look for? I guess I'm just worried that some guy is going to take a high-speed orbital and burn the heck out of the clear-coat or something. Can you give me a list of questions?

 

[12AMNSX]

I recommend that you contact Vytas. As a local NSX owner he has detailed several NSXs in the Bay Area including mine. Being midnight pearl, my NSX is dark and had many light scratches in the clear coat. The first thing Vytas did was to clay my car which removed all the crap built up over time. It was amazing how smooth the finish was just after the clay job. It's important to remove all the garbage on your paint before you buff or wax. Then he used a very light compound with his orbitial buffer on the areas with the most scratches which removed about 99% of them. He recomends doing this by hand, but my finish needed the extra help. Then he finished up with a quality wax. The results are outstanding. He did such a great job I had him come back and detail my wife's Accord (it's for sale by the way ). Too bad you don't live near us as Vytas would do a great job for you as well.

OK Vytas, you can pay me my $20 now!

 

[KGP]

The first thing Vytas did was to clay my car which removed all the crap built up over time. It was amazing how smooth the finish was just after the clay job.

Yes, I clayed it already...and was shocked at the crud it removed. I'll pm Vytas to comment on the thread.

 

[Vytas]

I personally avoid using orbital/motorized buffers. Although I do know many like them. I prefer the manual touch.

I used to feel the same way. I'd always do it by hand but it came to a point where you can only do so much by hand. The detailing machine, if used correctly, will speed up the job and not damage the paint at all.

I kept putting off buying a detail machine for quite some time. I get the Griot's Garage catalogs frequently and Richard Griot just raves about how safe it is to use this random orbital polisher. The polisher is made by Porter Cable and can be purchased anywhere. The key is using a "ventilated" backing plate and the right foam pads and polishes. I caved and bought a polisher and ventilated backing plate. I have the big white foam pad and lambs wool pad but never used them since they are way to harsh. I bought Griot's best foam applicator pads (different ones for polishing and wax application) and specially formulated machine polishes in three grades. Using the machine for the first time was nerve racking. I quickly got used to it and it didn't scratch the paint and removed all the swirl marks. You must use in a certain pattern and not stop in one area while the machine is on. I was impressed with the results. After using it for a year, I'm totally comfortable with it. Sometimes my customers get nervous about seeing a machine being used on their car but after I explain the difference (random - not direct drive polisher), they become believers and feel at ease should the need arise to use a polisher on their car again.

I've used this machine to remove swirl marks (a result of an incompetant detailer at a dealer) on a brand new '01 BMW 330i with astounding results. The owner was at a loss for words to describe how amazed he was to see his car's paint in absolute perfection. He couldn't believe I got ALL the swirl marks out of the paint.

I still try to do everything by hand but sometimes a machine is the only way. I'm happy that I bought this random orbital polisher to help me achieve excellence in my detail work.

I just detailed SR71TG's NSX and Accord in the last two weeks and used the random orbital polisher where necessary. His NSX had lots of hairline scratches that seemed to be left by someone using a very rough/dry towel to dry the car. Several light and annoying scratches were also present. The Accord needed attention in several areas to remove spotting and light scratches not possible to do perfectly by hand. Spending up to four hours on each car, SR71TG was very impressed with the end result. It's as if he's never seen either of his cars ever look this good before. SR71TG just had to drive his NSX around the block to break in the new wax. Told me it felt like a new NSX again. Now that's what makes my detailing work very satisfying.

 

[JaguarXJ6]

Before and after pics! The 3M products are great.

Vytas, I can agree with you more. There's a certain satisfaction and great pride in it thats reward enough in itself. I haven't taken up to buying or learning how to use one of the Porter Cables and I really should having a metallic black car and detail once every 1-2 weeks. And detail my parents cars every several weeks... all done by hand. Advice/tips welcome.

Sunny

 

[DaveJP]

I agree with Vytas. Don't be afraid to use the Porter Cable with the Griot's products....You literally can do nothing to damage your finish if you follow the simple instructions. Before I used this system on my NSX, I tried it on my beater and I could not damage the already bad finish on that car...The Griots stuff is great..no heat buildup...Follow it up with Zaino or Zymol and you'll have perfection.

 

[nsxtasy]

Just to add a note here - I'm not dead set against buffers, and the Porter Cable random orbital buffer sounds like a great unit that can save a lot of effort. However, as even those who use them note, you need to follow instructions carefully in order to prevent damage, and it helps to gain a little experience with the buffer - which is why I still think it's a good idea that if you're going to use a buffer for the first time, start with another car first. Also, if you're working on swirl marks in a small spot or area, the benefits of the buffer won't be as great as if you have a problem over most of the car.

 

[KGP]

Thanks for all the advice. I think what I am going to do is talk to some detailers, show them the car, and listen to their advice. Maybe I will find someone who I feel is competent.

However, I still would like to hear some questions that you think should be asked when "interviewing" a detailer.

Maybe go with a detailer...maybe DIY.

It's pretty darn hard to capture pics of swirl marks, but I managed to get a few that worked. These pics are when the car is bare. No wax, and had just been clayed.
pic1&pic2
BTW, my wife and kids think I have completely lost my marbles...taking pics of something they "can't even see"

 

[tbNSX]

FWIW... Mine had a lot of haze and swirl marks. I first washed with Dawn to remove all existing wax, then used meguiars #9 followed by zaino #2 with great results. Haze and all but the deepest scratches were gone. I was very pleased with the results.

 

[mlambert890]

KGP,

One big thing to ask a detailer is to see their book. A really serious detailer should be keeping a book of photos of their work. In addition, you can ask for references from other high-end car owners.

You should also speak with the actual person that will be doing the car (if this is a big shop) and ask them about their technique (what steps they plan on doing, do they clay first if requested, are they using a machine, etc.) and products (which products they use). It can also be enlightening just to take a look while they work (nice clean towels, excersising caution when working, etc.)

On that Autopia site, a lot of mobile detailers post in the pro section (these are guys who come to you with a truck and do the work on your premises). These guys actually seem better than the typical shop and it's possible to develop a closer relationship. A lot of them have samples posted there too...

 

[LJSB]

Wow good photo.
You are not crazy they are there!
I can see the swirl marks but what really interesting is that it looks like Elvis's face is in the tree trunk!

Black cars are tough, they show everything!

 

[JaguarXJ6]

By hand, I've been able to keep swirling at a bare minimum. Light scratches will eventually be compounded gently out once or twice a year. These were taken 2 weeks ago of my daily driver.

I've discovered that the ripple in the last photo under the clearcoat and top paint layer is orange peel in one of the undercoats... doh!

I cry when I see black paint in shambles..

 

[sjs]

Vytas, it's always a pleasure to hear from someone who knows their stuff and takes pride in their work.

Have you ever been to St. Louis? I'm thinking we can come up with at least six cars for you to do and possibly twice that many.

How 'bout it KGP? Between us we've got three and I'll bet we can get commitments for many more from the local group. Perhaps we can even arrange a seminar on DIY detailing and maintenance. For a fee of course.

Vytas, do you like baseball? I'll even kick in a Cards game.

Hey STL guys, I'm not kidding here. I know it sounds outrageous to fly someone across the country to detail cars but we could make a real event out of it. Anyone with transferable frequent flyer miles they can sell to the group at a good rate?

 

[KGP]

Have you ever been to St. Louis? I'm thinking we can come up with at least six cars for you to do and possibly twice that many.

Vytas, do you like baseball? I'll even kick in a Cards game.

I'll throw in the free tickets to the AB Brewery and Grants Farm. Sure, bringem on.