Tuning for water/meth injection with CTSC, stock ecu/AEM F/IC

[jcjcf1]

I'm interested in adding a water/meth injection system to a hi-boost CTSC (Whipple) setup which is using the stock ecu/AEM F/IC. What I want to achieve is lower IAT without the tune depending on having the water injection present so that any failure of the water injection system should not cause a problem. I'm not looking for more hp, only the engine-friendly benefits of lower IAT.

There have been a number of threads stating that the CTSC/stock ecu setup depends on the stock ecu retarding timing (as a result of high IAT) for safe operation. I'm wondering if this is still true with the F/IC. So, is adding the injection system with no tuning changes safe? It seems to me that if tuning is changed in any way that the overall system would then become water injection dependent for safe operation. Any knowledgeable advice will be appreciated. Thanks.

John

 

[RON98]

setup it up, after it hits 6 psi, just have the water kick in.

for your application, you dont need meth, just plain h2o will do just fine in keeping iats in check

 

[warren1205]

aem has a great kit with a progressive controller. That's what i'm running now and have nothing but great results. I set my controller to engage at .5 psi and pregress to a full spray at 6 psi with the stage two nozzle. I think it's a 340cc

 

[ownercarry]

i agree. aem has released v3 of their software, but right now, iat is not something that can trigger an event like pull timing quick. whipples are better than roots chargers, but they all make tremendous heat. 6psi isn't too high though. i've seen them actually reset the iat sensor on aem tuned cars. this means that the gm iat sensor hits its max reading, about 220, then resets to 77. if this happens on a long 4th gear run, the problem is that, if the tuner was good and has the aem pull timing and fuel for the higher iat, then it will suddenly go back to the 77 degree setting (no cuts) somewhere high in the rpm. your engine will probably take this a few times, but not many and soon you'll be seeing through your pistons. setup the the water or meth system and always manage the tank level. alternative is get an aem or power fc and a dyno tune. if you have dbw, i believe autowave makes aem harness and you can do power fc too, but not 100% sure.

 

[jmp]

I am running the Autorotor, 9 lb pulley, Snow Perf meth inj (comes on progressively in 2 stages which can be set at varying levels), AEM, 550 injectors, and 255 walbro fuel pump, on a 3.0. I too added methanol for the purpose of reducing IAT's. I am reasonably satisfied and the car runs great.

I am leaning toward purchasing Shad's Aftercooler as I realy want a more integrated IAT "fix".

I "burn" through the 5 quart methanol tank pretty quickly when my foot is really in it. I have not tracked the car since I installed the snow perf. My concern is not knowing in say a 45 min to one hour track session if I am starting to run low on methanol. If you run out with the advanced timing, you blow up. The Aftercooler solves this.

 

[jcjcf1]

Thanks for the responses. Ron98's suggestion is exactly what I have in mind. Get a basic Snow Performance system for street use only, use it as a standalone method to reduce IAT at boost (6lb. threshold sounds reasonable), not integrated directly to the ecu/F/IC. In other words, keep it simple, and don't add something intended for enhanced engine longevity that can instead be at least partially responsible for an engine failure.

Does anyone knowledgeable about the use of the F/IC have any reason to think that this solution poses a danger to the engine? Thanks.

 

[RON98]

forget the progressive.

keep it simple.

learn to walk before your can run.

you can buy a progressive controller from many manufactures and just add on after the fact. little extra water never hurt any engines.

 

[warren1205]

You actually want to run a 50 50 mixture. You can use denature alcohol if you don't have methanol. running the methanol you get the affect of running 110+ octane. Make sure you add distilled water (purified drinking water) methanol and denatured or even rubbing alcohol have properties of carrying over 30% liquid oxygen, methanol being over 39% denatures following at about 34% and so on. Please run a 50 50 or even 60meth and 40 water!!! Spill alcohol on your hand and see how cold that feels. AND a progressive controller is the best thing you can possibly have. Please read this link. It will tell you everything you can possibly think of and even give you a history lesson. Read this and you'll know enough to even school tuners.

http://www.tristatetuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14745

 

[warren1205]

actually see this site first then the other site.

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html

 

[jmp]

On the issue of progressive release of meth, Snow Perf has a 2-stage setup that allows you some flexibility. I started with the 1 stage and went to 2 which allowed for better tuning and driveability in my opinion.

On the issue of mixture and what to use, there is something called "boost juice" which I believe is basically 50/50 and is essentially window washer fluid. I am told you can use off the shelf windown wahser fluid. I purchase methanol from a racing fuel supplier in 50 gal drums and mix it 70/30 (meth to distilled water). However you do it, make sure to tune it the way you intend to set it up and drive it.

 

[warren1205]

it has to say -30. anything over 0 is almost plain water. and you have to be careful it doesn't have antifreeze in it.

 

[latzke]

Question...

Given the same (conservative) tune on a positive-displacement SC (whipple) injecting the same volume...what would the different outcomes be from injecting the same volume, but varying the percent of the mixture that is meth vs water (0%, 25%, 50%, 70% meth)?

I found this thread and am coming from a similar mindset as jcjcf1 and RON98. I have the high-boost whipple kit (CT's version, so just ESM and stock ECU, no piggyback), am tired of the high temps, don't want to mess around with a lot of tuning, and if I can get what I want by injecting a little water that would be great (much cheaper than meth/alcohol).

Thanks

 

[warren1205]

i buy a gallon of meth at socal for 5.50. meth is very very cheap when your mixing 50/50. You can buy denatured alcohol at home depot for 14 bucks. meth also contains 39% liquid oxygen and gives the affects of 110+ octane.

 

[tbeaty]

Does anyone have verified proof of the meth injection lowering intake air temps on a CTSC? I was told that most of the heat is generated in the compressing of the air inside the blower and that the meth is injected too early in the TB. Like on a turbo application you inject after the turbine not before, right? I hope they are wrong because I would like to try it.

 

[angus]

All I am going to say is this, methanol injection works. It works so well in fact , that no matter how you choose to get it into your engine , you will see major benefits ,I've seen people inject before the compressor , after, directly in the ports(my car) does'nt matter, It works , period.

 

[warren1205]

WATER INJECTION DOES NOT LOWER AIT! a lot of people and myself once believed meth injection worked by lowering ait's. It cools the explosion by using H2o and meth to raise octane. if you raise the octane it burns at a slower rate therefore giving you the option to increase boost and timing and avoiding detonation. If your cylinder is to hot it will pre-ignite when your cylinder is coming up and the explosion pushing down causing catastrophic failure. Also, when ait's are running hotter you intake less oxygen molecules. Methanol carries 39% liquid oxygen.